#3 Questions

Well you can still run Linux, BSD, Solaris and Windows or pretty much any other OS on the same machine :wink:

That’s the problem - I don’t have the time or patience anymore to spend hours on end to make a soundcard work on Linux (For example trying to get 5.1/7.1 to work on a Yamaha amp was an unbelievable pain).

All I need anymore is something the “works now” instead of “works in a few hours”.

And you’d be **** happy if you could get Linux to the same level and get those people to use it :wink:

Oh yes you would, big liar rotfl!

Well I have to disagree on that one - XCode is an amazing package and their devnet is actually really, really good.

Perhaps the mini-skirt helps here again :wink:

Gah, I should’ve double checked the quotes again - I guess I’m too used to IPB whining and auto-fixing them for me :slight_smile:

But what about running OS X on any other machine? What if a user finds OS X good but does not want to buy overpriced Apple junkware and instead wants to run it on his peecee at home? There’s no legal way to do this and he must resort to hacked versions of OS X found on the Net because Apple is being too dumb to understand that if they open up OS X (as in make it available for all PCs, not just their own junkware) there’s a very good chance it’ll overtake Windows. Sure, when you open it up and has to support much wider set of HW, it can be tough but IMHO the benefit of selling OS X for all consumer PCs, not just Macs, is greater for many, including Apple itself (which is still thinking as if we’re still in the 80s, early 90s). But knowing Apple and how secretive and closed they are, despite using and benefiting A LOT from open source technology/code but giving very little back (where’s the popular iTunes for Linux? Where’s QuickTime? (though admittedly the biggest junk ever to come from Apple)), that won’t happen because uncle Steve, just as chair throwing monkey Ballmer, fit in the same closet full of lies, manipulations, and more importantly, control freaks from the 1st degree.

That’s the problem - I don’t have the time or patience anymore to spend hours on end to make a soundcard work on Linux (For example trying to get 5.1/7.1 to work on a Yamaha amp was an unbelievable pain).

All I need anymore is something the “works now” instead of “works in a few hours”.

Then buy compatible stuff if you want to “just works”. I can also throw incompatible HW at OS X and pull my hair off in trying to make it work.

And you’d be **** happy if you could get Linux to the same level and get those people to use it :wink:

Oh yes you would, big liar rotfl!

What??? I don’t care if you use Linux, Windows, OS X, or any other OS as long as you are not tied to a specific platform as is the case with Apple’s OS. Big liar how? I couldn’t care less if a fashion jok is as clueless as my cat and is being deceived by Apple in paying a ****load of $$$ just so he can be “cool” and maintain his superficial status among his click of friends. As for Windows, it’s not so much the OS I dislike (though it’s not for me) it’s the fact that MS knows how to push it in your throat, whether you want it or not, and this applies even more to people who don’t know about computers which are very easy targets for exploitation. MS even dictates and influences big giants like Intel and mobo manufacturers. Apple is even worse in my eyes. Pushing not only their OS but also their own HW. I have yet to see here a shop that sells Mac computers without the OS pre-installed

Well I have to disagree on that one - XCode is an amazing package and their devnet is actually really, really good.

XCode? are you ****ting me? I wasn’t talking about XCode, I was talking about how Apple treats its own devs, especially those who code for their iJoke portable devices. Go dig a bit on Ars Technica forums, you’ll see what I’m talking about (also don’t overlook some of the past articles). Btw, did they fix that very critical Java bug yet? It’s been sitting there for months and Apple’s been ignoring it despite many reports from users.

Perhaps the mini-skirt helps here again :wink:

Won’t work on me. I don’t allow my judgment be deceived by such cheap things. You got great legs? Wow, great! so does she over there and the other one too, etc, etc…

btw, since I can’t edit stuff here, you completely ignored why Apple has the right to overcharge their stuff while it offers no more functionality/quality (even less I’d say compared to specific others who don’t overcharge)?

Apple is being too dumb to understand that if they open up OS X (as in make it available for all PCs, not just their own junkware) there’s a very good chance it’ll overtake Windows

No, you’re wrong there. Apple is not dumb. They know that exclusivity is part of their marketing image. If they opened it up, they might sell more units, but not make so much profit.

How is OS X more exclusive? I’ll tell you. In order to use it, you must buy their HW which in turn locks you in into Apple stuff (OS+HW), the very same thing I was talking about. Their profit comes mostly from their overpriced shiny-looking HW, not so much from the OS itself as it sells for about the same amount as Windows, if not cheaper, and the sales volume is not even close to Windows. If they open up OS X for other HW, they’ll see a huge sales boost, but at a huge expense of their HW side which will decline when people see that you no longer need a Mac to run it. Surely, Apple with its strong image and better design can profit from this, something like the lines of “oooohhh, Apple has opened up OS X and I can now run it on any PC I want? Great, lets buy it and replace Windows at home”… MS is not a HW company and yet they have achieved virtually total domination of the consumer PC market with the crap called Windows. I bet that when people hear that you no longer need to buy expensive Apple HW just so you can run their OS (which many people find better than Windows), this can quickly overturn things in favor of Apple and I bet MS will also be pushed even more to compete in order to try and maintain its dominance

If they open up OS X for other HW, they’ll see a huge sales boost, but at a huge expense of their HW side which will decline when people see that you no longer need a Mac to run it. Surely, Apple with its strong image and better design can profit from this

Obviously Apple doesn’t agree with your conjecture. Good luck convincing them.

rotfl! of course they don’t, mainly due to being control freaks and deluding people into buying their HW, which when they do, they get locked in. I won’t spend any time on convincing them that they should be more open as it’s a tradition for Apple in being stubborn/closed so they won’t listen no matter what :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t see why Apple shouldn’t be allowed to sell their product tied to their hardware, after all - it’s their choice - as is your choice as a consumer not to buy the product if you are not pleased with it.

Vote with your wallet.

Mac tried that in the 90s and it almost destroyed the company. Much of the whole Mac experience comes from the fact that you have a set defined tools and hardware that ‘get the job done’ as opposed to throwing in random 3rd party devices that can bring the house down.

Yes, they took some parts from BSD but to claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone and stolen from them is pretty much B.S. (In Penn & Teller style - which incidentally is a great show).

On that note, Quicktime and iTunes are pretty great on OS X - admittedly they blows on Windows but then again I don’t care about Windows so it’s pretty inconsequential to me.

I’ve bought ‘compatible’ hardware for Linux often, only to find out it doesn’t actually work at all or I have to wait months on end to get a random beta driver that supports a fraction of the capabilities of the card/device - most of the time the driver being written by some hobbyist at home with varying quality.

Oh yes, DVB world is such a wonderful thing.

And why should they? If you’re going to buy a Mac, you’ll most likely want to run OS X.

I’m sure if you ask of them to remove it, they will and sell you the machine without an OS.

Since I do not code for iPhones or their various devices, I don’t really know or care how they treat them - on the computer side the treatment alongside the tools are excellent.

I wouldn’t know as I’m running Snow ‘Seed’ as my primary system and a 64-bit Java that seems to update every other day.

The value of a tool is what you perceive it to be.

Apple have an “extra” on the hardware (and if you buy things like memory from them, they sure do as they’re retarded expensive) but on the other hand the Macbook Pro I’m typing this message on has so far had 0 days, 0 hours and 0 minutes of actual software or hardware related downtime.

At the end of the day, use what you like - I will use Apple’s products alongside Novell’s in sweet harmony.

You again missed what I wrote (sorry, I can’t express myself that well in English as you can). I was talking about the OS itself. If I find it good and really want to use it but a) already have a decent PC machine at home so no need to buy another or b) do not have or want to give a lot of $$$ to buy a Mac just so I can run the OS itself, I am not offered a choice from Apple. You have to buy the Mac, no matter if one already has a decent PC at home, just so you can use the OS you may like very much.

Mac tried that in the 90s and it almost destroyed the company. Much of the whole Mac experience comes from the fact that you have a set defined tools and hardware that ‘get the job done’ as opposed to throwing in random 3rd party devices that can bring the house down.

There is no reason why 3rd party devices can’t work as reliably as those offered by Apple. If Apple or those making the 3rd party devices, before pushing them to market, certify all of them and work closely, it can make a real difference. Strong cooperation between software and hardware companies can improve things for all parties and broaden the choice/compatibility. Unfortunately, we’re far from this utopia :wink:

Yes, they took some parts from BSD but to claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone and stolen from them is pretty much B.S. (In Penn & Teller style - which incidentally is a great show).

On that note, Quicktime and iTunes are pretty great on OS X - admittedly they blows on Windows but then again I don’t care about Windows so it’s pretty inconsequential to me.

When did I claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone? I wasn’t even talking about this. I was talking about their applications software (which is popular) like iTunes and QuickTime (doesn’t matter the quality of it). I still can’t run it on my Linux box. I still have troubles buying music from the Net as the first thing it tells me is that it didn’t detect iTunes on my system and offers me to install it, but from where can I download it when it’s not even available for my Linux OS?

I’ve bought ‘compatible’ hardware for Linux often, only to find out it doesn’t actually work at all or I have to wait months on end to get a random beta driver that supports a fraction of the capabilities of the card/device - most of the time the driver being written by some hobbyist at home with varying quality.

Oh yes, DVB world is such a wonderful thing.

Eh, the same hobbyist who contributed a lot to Linux and made it run on everything? You think that closed drivers are so much better? Think again… /me looks at ATI and nVIDIA :stuck_out_tongue:

And why should they? If you’re going to buy a Mac, you’ll most likely want to run OS X.

It’s like saying that if you’re going to buy a Dell, you’ll most likely want to run Windows or if you’re going to buy Lenovo/IBM, you’ll most likely want to run AIX :stuck_out_tongue: … or if you’re going to buy a Mazda, you’ll most likely want to drive it on this or that road but not on the other ones

What I like is this: I choose the HW from the many vendors out there and when I do, I choose which OS I want to run on it, be it Linux, OS X or Windows. I can achieve this with Linux and partly with Windows (which, I must admit, MS is better here than Apple) but I can’t do that with OS X. You wanna run it? You are obliged in buying their HW as it runs on nothing else

I’m sure if you ask of them to remove it, they will and sell you the machine without an OS.

I’ll keep that in mind but don’t hold your breath as I won’t be buying from Apple

The value of a tool is what you perceive it to be.

Apple have an “extra” on the hardware (and if you buy things like memory from them, they sure do as they’re retarded expensive) but on the other hand the Macbook Pro I’m typing this message on has so far had 0 days, 0 hours and 0 minutes of actual software or hardware related downtime.

At the end of the day, use what you like - I will use Apple’s products alongside Novell’s in sweet harmony.

The value of the tool is not just dependent on your own perception but also on other things such as factual quality and factual functionality. Even you must admit that a portable music player such as the iPod Shuffle with only 1GB of storage, no screen at all, and a poor excuse for an equalizer is not worth the €33 when compared to a similar player from a lesser known company but one that offers much more functionality, is of the same quality but costs only a few € more. Apple is charging so much because of its brand. You pay for it not because it has superior functionality or quality, but because it was made by a company called Apple.

however when I’m shopping for “compatible products”, they actually work right out of the box without hacking. It’s a bonus for us who actually need to get the job done.

Yes but these days one can do this with linux too, sure there is still some hardware that doesnt work right away but that margin is closing fast with how much progress linux has made.
Linux’s disadvantages are getting smaller by the day.

And let’s not forget one thing - Apple gained more users in 12 months than Linux in 17 years.

Yes but Apple has marketing and money, they can buy out their own corner of the market and not even care.
Linux doesnt have some crap super company behind it, linux is powered by the community so it doesnt have the financial edge.
But you know what, that doesnt matter as linux is slowly but surely becoming a name on the desktop.

But in any case I will still use Linux over Apple, considering the position Apple has and its policies.
Apple barely contributes back to open source that it has stolen technology from, they bastardized BSD and rape those who they desire.
They are afraid of competition too, look at the crap with what happened with the new Palm OS, it was labled a iphone killer so Apple made sure itunes would not support it.
Apple is just as corrupt as Microsoft is, sure with linux experience will vary but at least it has values.

But it’s still “not there”.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4855/apibm071112ms.jpg

Halleluja. And that is your RIGHT and DUTY as a consumer - you should choose the product and tool that you want to use just as it is mine to choose to buy their products; without constantly being harassed about it.

If iTunes was a monopoly I would agree that it’s bad and Apple should be slapped in the face (by EU, for example) but here comes the thrilling fact; It’s not a monopoly, not even close. There are many music stores out there that sell cheaper, have just as wide a variety of music and most of all support various other devices but it always comes back to iTunes; why?

You have a choice. You can choose not to buy from iTunes or devices that support it - buy one of the alternative stores and be happy with it?

it’s not about whether you have a choice not to use it. It’s about when you choose to use it for whatever reason, you’re not offered a possibility by Apple if you don’t use this or that. Like I said previously, why is Apple completely ignoring Linux and refuses to offer iTunes for it? Each time I try it, it tells me it didn’t detect iTunes on my system and offers a download which isn’t even available for my platform, hence I can’t use

btw, I love the IBM logo you put up. Great company :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes but its closer now then its ever been, a good reason why I choose linux is the progress it has made.
And in retrospect linux has made more progress in the last 4 years then what Windows and Apple have done in 10.
It took a long time for both apple and Microsoft to take the market for themselves.
You fail to realize that OSX has only recently got as much support now then it used to have, look about 6 years ago OSX was no better off then Linux is now.
But still in terms of numerics linux has still made a lot of advancements, we are talking about a OS that is a little over 10 years old in Linux VS a company that is over 30 years old.
But look at how fast the gap is closing for linux, its faster then what Apple has done.
From the first year I used linux in 2004 till now Linux has made many more quantum leaps then I think Apple has in terms of advancement.
Now yes in terms of hardware compatibility apple might have made more progress but even that advantage is closing fast.
In many ways yes Linux is what OSX was 4 years ago, but at the same time its made a lot of progress in that slot of time.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4855/apibm071112ms.jpg

Yes IBM has been a major backer as of late, but IBM right now is becoming more open about its positions…

Halleluja. And that is your RIGHT and DUTY as a consumer - you should choose the product and tool that you want to use just as it is mine to choose to buy their products; without constantly being harassed about it.

Yes but really why buy from a company that has the same values as Microsoft does: Try to totally monopolize any market they touch?
Me I rather fund and support linux anyday over Apple as yes one can say Apple makes a good product but having a good product and having a good business model are two separate things.
I wont dent Apple makes good hardware, but the best hardware?
No, in terms of hardware Apple is no different then the HP Pavilion A1310y I own now despite my computer being about 4 years old now itself.
With upgrades to Memory and Hard disk space I could make my current computer on spec with an Apple, processor is another deal but meh my P4 is pretty good in its own right.
Video card is another matter too but meh.
All and all a modern Apple is not much different then the PC I have right now, hardware is a little newer and a little different but if I got a new computer right now I could still get a PC on par with a Apple with ease.
Its all about what is bundled but really the amount of hardware the is not linux friendly is getting smaller.
But if I got say a Zareason, System 76 or built my own I would know whats compatible anyhow.
But even if I didnt do that and got a new HP, dell, or even a crappy gateway I know linux will most likely work with everything, especially Dell and HP who have hardware that is mostly linux friendly.
Now that is desktops, not laptops but even in that case i can still probably find a laptop that will run linux without issue…
Linux’s gap is quite small compared to how it used to be.

If iTunes was a monopoly I would agree that it’s bad and Apple should be slapped in the face (by EU, for example) but here comes the thrilling fact; It’s not a monopoly, not even close. There are many music stores out there that sell cheaper, have just as wide a variety of music and most of all support various other devices but it always comes back to iTunes; why?

itunes is a popular app, most people are familiar with it and overall its probably the most popular music store.
But its also very restrictive, closing off the application to just a few products is anti competitive.

You have a choice. You can choose not to buy from iTunes or devices that support it - buy one of the alternative stores and be happy with it?

Thats why I say thank goodness for Amazon.

Or it could be in addition to all that, it doesn’t make business sense for them. They can no longer control the experience, causing bad knockoffs to give the Apple brand a bad reputation. Then they have also to deal with piracy. And of course it makes it less exclusive. You have to grant that, it just works (well most of the time anyway) with their own products is because they control the platform so tightly. And they are laughing all the way to the bank so why should they care about openness and all that?

Yes but why defend Apple?
For me they are enemies to open source and freedom.
I much sooner give my support and money to linux to help improve it and make the user experience better then to fund a company like Apple who takes the money and uses it only to make more of the DRM loving crap they have now.

Me defending Apple? You must have your prejudices on. I’m just explaining the facts. Don’t let your prejudices get in the way of plain facts. Apple is a cold-hearted business entity. So is IBM. To expect Apple to be open is quixotic.

Well Apple’s cold heartedness cannot be disputed, but there is still no justification from buying Apple products nor supporting their business methods.
And comparing IBM to Apple, feh IBM in my mind is a better company.
I know if I ever got a IBM product I would indirectly support software freedom as IBM is a well known ally of Open Source and Linux.
Perhaps its not the best ally considering how IBM was back in the day and arguable how IBM is now but for the most part IBM has made many contributions to open source.
I dont see the same from Apple, they only seem to know how to take and give little back.
Look at webkit as an example, they happily give out instructions to windows and mac users…
But Linux?
No and most of the modern webkit was once Khtml, they made changes to the code, made a lot of that code exclusive to apple users leaving khtml behind.
JNow since then webkit has been made more open source but really most of its documentationis targeted at OSX and Windows and not the people they stole the tech from.
Then there is CUPS, we have to question its future because Apple owns it now, sure its GPL now but apple has money to bypass it and create a locked down version.

When did I suggest that people buy Apple? I was just explaining why Apple appeals to some sectors. Obviously they must have some appeal for some people to be making that much moolah.

Nobody’s making you buy Apple products. And there are worse things than owning Apple shares. Like owning shares in armaments companies for example.

It seems that even though I am in furious agreement with you and microchip8, it’s you guys who have problems dealing with the dichotomy that open source virtue is not necessarily correlated with business success.

yes but business can make success from open source as much as closed source.
And I am not just talking about financial success, business success in general can benefit from open source if given the chance.