11.4--someone in Novell, Attachmate, or

English Soapbox
#1

<rant>
imho, someone in Novell, Attachmate, or influential with the board of
openSUSE or the Community in general should grab up a bunch of
developers and force them (since most have sworn to never come here)
to look at the pandemonium caused when 11.4 is hyped to the unwashed
masses and then delivered as broken as it is…

i remember lots of discussions about a new openSUSE Strategy, but i do
not remember a single time anyone proposed causing the level of
despair among Windows and other Linux distro users (and even LOTs of
long time SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users) who RAN here for the magic we sold…

sure, some folks are very very happy, and i’m sure there are lots and
lots of happy folks we are not hearing from in the forum…but, wow!
the number and level of problems thrown up by 11.4 is really
amazing…i don’t think i’ve seen this level before…well, maybe
11.0 was close…

</rant>
trouble is i do not feel any better after that…
and, THAT is a problem…
a problem for me to deal with, somehow.

–
DenverD
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP posted w/openSUSE 11.3, KDE4.5.5, Thunderbird3.1.8, nVidia
173.14.28 3D, Athlon 64 3000+]
“It is far easier to read, understand and follow the instructions than
to undo the problems caused by not.” DD 23 Jan 11

#2

…not sure what you are complaining about?

#3

‘The Unwashed Masses’ !

That’s a grubby little comment and rather condescending if you ask me. And the omitting of detail is rather unlike you DD.

Sure there are some teething problems for some, but to say it is broken to the extent of causing pandemonium is pure hyperbole.

#4

Don’t forget that apparantly the numbers of downloads was much higher than it was for 11.3. And with a higher number of downloads it is reasonable to also expect a higher number of people with problems.

openSUSE News

#5

Strange thing this release cycle stuff. I’ve kept silent and in the shadows quietly watching 11.3 comments and fixes and 11.4 which by virtue of pure unfounded hype was supposed to be just oh so much better. If the 11.4 problem posts are even remotely an accurate representation of what people can face (from bad live CD’s, bad DVD’s, failed installs leaving everything fixable but trashed), I for one am happy to have left both 11.3 and 11.4 to those who have nothing better to do then waste their time. Higher numbers of downloads I don’t think cuts it as a determiner as I recall reading a post where the OP said he tried 5 times to download waited a while then tried again several times and still didn’t have a burnable image. I also recall someone posting links to articles about the massive improvements expected with 11.4 and as the release comes to bare suddenly all goes silent.

#6

Mm… i can not say that i have a bad experience.
Everything works for me so far. Perhaps better.
I do remember the same complains with Ubuntu with release 9.10 from 9.04. So it is not new or specific to Suse.
People are always complaining, some are legit, some are just missteps. I do had a couple of minor problems but these were easy fixes for me.
But, to the defense of peoples problems, i haven’t touched everything so far. So there might be issues i have not even encountered so far.

#7

IMHO yours is an OTT reaction DD. Arm waving and decrying without specifics is all I see. I’m not saying you have no point, but how can I make a judgment based on your hyperbolic outburst. I like 11.4 more than any other before it, and I really mean that. I’d like to know what the trouble spots are. Can you summarise the specifics for us please?

#8

@swerdna said: I’d like to know what the trouble spots are. Can you summarise the specifics for us please?
Me thinks you know he didn’t even install it yet!
And that his comments are founded on the reports of his so called ‘Unwashed Masses’ :smiley: :smiley:

#9

It probably isn’t as bad as pandemonium but it’s not good either. 11.4 didn’t turn me off to openSUSE but I’m not going to run it anytime soon, instead I’ll be running 11.3 to replace a retiring 11.1 server. I’ve never tried Linux as a everyday platform and I tried it with 11.4. It installed fine on my laptop and worked well enough but… nothing that really sells it. LibreOffice is nice but I can run that in Windows as well. FF4 on the otherhand did cause the system to freeze, requiring me to logout.

Still, with Novell in flux, I can see where DenverD would be frustrated with how 11.4 has performed so far. I wasn’t aware of any hype for 11.4, only having started paying attention since my 11.1 server stopped updating. With the sale to Attachmate and 11.4’s issues, it has me considering checking out Fedora (again) and CentOS. I’ll be sad if openSUSE falls by the wayside as others have, like Caldera, so it must be even more frustrating to those that have substantially committed themselves to project as DenverD has.

I’m more committed to what I can do without Windows Server. When I decided on openSUSE in I think 2004 (to move away from Windows Server 2000), I’d tried Fedora, Solaris (crazy) and FreeBSD. I chose openSUSE because I felt it was the easiest to configure and run what I needed; Apache/PHP and Postgresql.

I don’t need the plasma desktop or the latest eye candy; at the end of the day, I just need it to work and 11.4 didn’t deliver on that but I also really didn’t expect it to for months yet. It’s just the nature of how diverse the hardware we have.

#10

I don’t agree with the OP’s view.

Similar to Fedora and Ubuntu, every openSUSE version has its own strengths and weaknesses. Version x.y may work great on one set of hardware, but x.y+1 may be a disaster. Version x.y may be a disaster on another set of hardware, but work superb on version x.y+1.

My view is if version x.y works great, the best way to reduce the risk of x.y+1 not working (but unfortunately not eliminate the risk) is to participate in the milestone/release-candidate development process. That helps many times in ensuring one gets a better experience for one’s hardware, by pointing out problems early in the development process.

There is a LOT of different hardware on the street, and unless large number of users support the milestone/release-candidate development process, then it is very difficult for the SuSE-GmbH packagers to ensure a new version x.y+1 works well with all hardware. It likely works INCREDIBLY WELL with SuSE-GmbH packagers hardware, but what they will have in their offices are likely an incredibly small fraction of the amount of hardware available. Ergo - users MUST participate to ensure the best possible release.

Thus far, I’ve found 11.4 is the best openSUSE version yet for:

  • my 32-bit AMD Athlon-1100 w/1GB RAM (MSI KT3 Ultra motherboard) w/AGP nVidia GeForce FX5200 graphics [age ~10-years] w/D-Link DWL-620 (atheros AR5001X+) wireless, where I have 32-bit 11.4 LXDE in a test partition. I’ve NEVER seen a previous openSUSE version this good for that hardware (albeit sound needed turning with pavucontrol app) !
  • my 64-bit Intel Core i7 920 w/6GB RAM (Asus P6T Deluxe V2 motherboard) w/ PCI-e nVidia GeForce GTX260 graphics [age ~2 years] where I have 64-bit 11.4 KDE4 in a test partition. I’ve NEVER seen a previous openSUSE version this good for that hardware (albeit sound needed turning with pavucontrol app) !
  • our Linux User Group Intel Pentium M Processor 715 (1.5GHz) w/512MB RAM (HP Compaq NC4010 notebook) w/Radeon IGP 330M/340M/350M and w/Atheros AR5001X+ Wireless. Sound worked fine in this case. 11.4 is on the main Linux partition on this old laptop. I’ve NEVER seen a previous openSUSE version this good for that hardware

BUT … 11.4 still does not work well on on my Linux killer laptop

  • 32-bit Intel 1.5 celeron w/1.256 GB RAM (Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo 7400M Laptop) with Intel i855 graphics [age ~7 years]

[INDENT]where the reason is despite Linux wide community efforts, the i855GM does not work well with the newer kernels. The 2.6.27 kernel in 11.1 was the last nicely compatible kernel with this hardware. I run 11.1 with a 32-bit Gnome on this laptop and thanks to ongoing support for 11.1 with the EVERGREEN project, this laptop works amazingly well. My wife (a very big winXP fan) was playing with this old 32-bit Gnome version last night, setting up a dual Thai/English keyboard, tuning the Thai fonts, etc … She was very happy with it !![/INDENT]

AND 11.4 does not work well with my

  • 64-bit Intel P8400 w/4GB RAM (64-bit Dell Studio 1537 Laptop), w/ATI Radeon 3450HD graphics [age ~2+ years] and Intel WiFi 5300AGN wireless

[INDENT]where the reason is a kernel (?) bug that slipped in between RC1 and RC2 means the laptop won’t boot with the radeon driver (it needs nomodeset with radeonhd, or proprietary fglxrx which works well) AND more important the Intel WiFi 5300AGN has serious problems in 11.4 which I did not experience in 11.3 (but others did see in 11.3). Hence I will keep this laptop on 11.3 which works amazingly well ![/INDENT]

I think it important, that openSUSE be looked in the context of MANY releases, and undue focus NOT be placed on a single release by the average users. Old versions ARE supported for a limited time, and concerns about their support being temporally too short are being addressed by the community with EVERGREEN project.

Also, 11.4 introduced the start of TUMBLEWEED, the significance of which IMHO is significantly overlooked (or under assessed) by MANY blogs/reviewers of openSUSE-11.4.

An important point here, is the competition between Linux distributions is unfortunately taking an unpleasant turn, which I believe will hurt all Linux distributions. Red Hat (and Fedora ? ) , feeling the pressure from Oracle and Novell, have now taken to obfuscating the changes they make to their kernel. And Ubuntu continue to have a poor record for having their MANY custom fixes sent upstream. Ergo arguably the two largest distributions have taken an approach where they no longer want to share as much with the community, and when they do decide to share they grudgingly want to DELAY the information on what they fix, so as to ensure other distributions lag them to a very long temporal extent.

My view is Linux is still too small to have this cut throat attitude of those two distributions help, and instead it will hurt the Linux community. It may also mean we will see users claim Ubuntu/Fedora ‘just work’ with their hardware but openSUSE does not.

Still, there are other factors lurking, and the recent sale being finalized of NOVELL (with it being split up) could mean the ‘threat’ to SuSE-GmbH (and hence openSUSE) of lawsuits may diminish (as there may be less cash in the bank) and that ‘might’ mean openSUSE may be able to have more user friendly links to cash-free-proprietary code (such as multimedia) which has been avoided in the past. But we won’t see that in 11.4.

Getting back to 11.4, given the limited size of the openSUSE distribution community (compared to the two larger distributions) I think 11.4 is still a BIG improvement over previous openSUSE versions for a good portion of the hardware available, but it is definitely NOT for all hardware. And this sort of generic comment about a new distribution release typically applies to ALL Linux versions, and NOT just new openSUSE versions.

I am VERY happy to see the many informative posts on the new neat features in 11.4. IMHO those sort of informative posts (noting the GREAT new features) was sorely lacking in previous openSUSE versions, and I confess in my rather long winded way of saying, I don’t share OP’s view on this.

#11

imho, someone in Novell, Attachmate, or influential with the board of
openSUSE or the Community in general should grab up a bunch of
developers and force them (since most have sworn to never come here)
to look at the pandemonium caused when 11.4 is hyped to the unwashed
masses and then delivered as broken as it is…

This is soapbox. Still, given the entity of dissatisfaction:

  • could you elaborate why you think that 11.4 is particularly hyped? Every edition from 10.1 has been hyped the same way in S.u.S.E has been treated that way. "A big thank you to all the developers involved and for the work, yadda yadda. Now to be honest: thank and acknowledgment are important. But there are and have been a lot of developments that where unnecessary and and negative (IMHO) though…if you speak about them it is a “rant”, you get to be declared the Antichrist and the “apostate of the moment”. Since I belief it is true that discussion (a honest elaboration on what is good and what is not would be positive): could you specify and elaborate on the specific points you refer to? One by one to be able to get back to a discussion about what is O.K. and what not. “Hype before the release is part of the business - for everyone AFAIK”
  • the missing interface between developer and the forum is a lost occasion. However do they behave really different then some here behave? I do not count any more the “bashing” of purported “noops” on command line issues instead of giving explanation on the commands. It is nicer to open the virtual raincoat somewhere in the IT subway passage. A bit of intellectual exhibitionism I suppose. However the same people of this forum (who are doing this regularly even nowadays) are not taking into account the opportunity cost. RTFM and “you could have known by googeling” often is true. But why people don’t? Because the have a job, using this software for the first time and because to get to solutions they need to loose an enormous amount of time to search. This is costly. For the developers this problem is exactly identical. To fix a bug through a forum is equivalent of working 5 times more or worse. Isn’t it? Boils down on “time is money” so maybe the way to report bugs for so called “noops” should be enhanced and finding replicate bugs should be easier. All IMO naturally. Don’t you think?
  • There are in OpenSUSE a few things that get worse every edition. I know that because I DO use on a fix PC the latest version every time. Since the introduction of 4.x the KDE environment has become much more fragile in my experience at least. And now I can finally have icons that are 90 degrees inclined (which enhances the productivity of work enormously). This is to be put on the website of KDE? So why do not create a kind of petition thread where members can sign for a statement and then sign over this statement with it enhanced weight on one aspect ot the KDE developers. Maybe then you are heard more?
  • I noticed that not very important issues do not get attention while important ones don’t. So we are discussion the future of cloud computing as a project…but do still not have a sound stable and near-to-fail-safe Networkmanager and a sound and very elaborated WLAN setup. What is cloud good for if the VPN with Openvpn is difficult or impossible to set up? If the wirless card does not work at all?
  • The core of a productivity environment is the PIM and email. There seems to be a tendency to say: change client if the one you are using is not OK. This is nice, may be a strength of OSS but cannot be enough as an argument. Rather I would like to know why usability is not discussed with the user…but is coming for the developers ivory tower. Now some people argue that developers are working not for users but for their projects…But then…why do we need something else then programmers using a desktop. Normal users can … use a pencil. I think users are important and make a desktop environment successful. The support for the major desktop environments seem to be there…but do we REALLY foster this dialog here? Is this what you are angry about? The ergonomics?

Now there is a lot of change (especially in the graphics system) that caused issues. And there is a tendency that machines that are more then 10 years old with less then 512 MB of Ram do not run well on OpenSUSE. Scandal. But maybe this is a case for changing “for that particular machine” the distribution or begin to compile? Hardware wise I remember the times of 6.x forward when you tried to install SUSE, never made it and substantially (for lack of any community and in presence of a 56k US Robotics modem on the serial port (wow)) gave up, and you continued to buy the box more for ideological reasons then for productivity. Because you where NOT an IT freak or an IT student at the University. Now these times seem gone for me, I am often astonished about the good compatibility of newer hardware but that a distribution is logically about 1 year behind on new hardware is nearly physiological and nearly always responsibility of the producers of it. If you have examples and think that is not true, elaborate.

Finally that is not a criticism to your post Denver. I appreciate this much more then the “cheerful crowd in sustain to the government brought in with a chartered bus”.
Regards.

#12

There is a LOT of different hardware on the street, and unless large number of users support the milestone/release-candidate development process, then it is very difficult for the SuSE-GmbH packagers to ensure a new version x.y+1 works well with all hardware. It likely works INCREDIBLY WELL with SuSE-GmbH packagers hardware, but what they will have in their offices are likely an incredibly small fraction of the amount of hardware available. Ergo - users MUST participate to ensure the best possible release.

OK oldcpu, you got me enthused to install 11.5/12.0 milestone from the get go next time.

#13

Now here’s a thought for you DenverD: why don’t you install 12.0 Milestone 1 and keep it updated through the release cycle this next round. You could really contribute to making the next release a good one. I know this because I’ve come to know your organized and analytical nature over the years.

I say this to you: for the next openSUSE round, put your support where your mouth is.

#14

I’m not sure how relevant, but while waiting for the 1st couple of milestones of 11.5, I installed an extra version (in a separate partition) of 11.4 on my sandbox PC, and added the 11.4 Tumbleweed repositories (both SuSE-GmbH (?) and also Packman essentials). Thus far 11.4 tumbleweed is working nicely. :slight_smile:

#15

It is not nearly as broken as that tone suggests.

Sure, some people are having problems. Reading this forum makes it look worse than it is, because it is mainly the people with problems who come here.

However, I would say that it is good advice to users with minimal technical background, to avoid jumping early into a new software version (whether linux, windows, etc). Better to allow the more experienced users to try it first. The advice for the average user should be “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

#16

So far I have not problems with 11.4 in my old experimental laptop. But I am afraid to upgrade to my desktop because of zypper dup bug. Anyway this problem must be fixed so many and many users will upgrade.

#17

I never understand all this complaining about each new OpenSuse release; don’t upgrade but once every 12-18 months, if upgrades are too much trouble. So far I have found 11.4 to be better than 11.3, which was better than 11.2, which was better than 11.1, etc. Overall 11.4 is an excellent alternative to Win. 7, and with VMware installed, one can run Win. 7 effortlessly as well, while still maintaining a fully operational GNU/Linux system in a total of 2 Gigs of physical RAM. And the total cost for 11.4, even if one buys it, is less than a dinner for two at any NYC midtown restaurant.

#18

On 2011-03-19 14:36, stamostolias wrote:

> I am afraid to upgrade to my desktop because of zypper dup bug. Anyway
> this problem must be fixed so many and many users will upgrade.

It was fixed before release.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

#19

Let me throw another twist on this. I did upgrade to 11.4 on my laptop, my wifes, laptop and my daughters computer, and all is fine. In fact it went so well I got bored with it. The upgrade on my laptop went flawlessly. On my daughters it didn’t like the upgrade due to the nvidia proprietary configuration, even though I cleared that out, so a fresh install. My wifes laptop, the upgrade complained of a few packages that didn’t install, but still booted fine, and I installed them anyway from a working system. So in my boredom, I decided to go to Gentoo. 11.4, in my opinion works to well. At least for me. I got bored. I’ve been needing a challenge anyway. So you could say this is high praise to openSUSE in the release of 11.4. It works to good.

#20

yeah - it was boring, other than needing 2 boots there wasn’t anything to fix (iirc), but not so boring I’m gonna futz with Gentoo

Other then my desktop not suspending to ram, which it didn’t in 11.3 there was nothing to fix - it was boring