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Thread: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

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    Default openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Richard brown did post his promised blog on why not to use Leap and go Tumbleweed (well, really, MicroOS) only...

    https://rootco.de/2020-02-10-regular...ses-are-wrong/

    For me, the great strength of Tumbleweed, as a "general purpose" distro, is also it's greatest weakness; constantly rebuilding packages. Watching zypper dup download and then individually update 1000+ packages on a weekly basis or more is a bit much to me, even for a single desktop. On a general purpose sprawling server that feels like a nightmare just waiting to happen.

    On the other hand, I do fully agree that rolling for Micro OS and single function containers, where a whole pre-made system image snapshot is provided that is a product delivery or an update, makes a lot of sense. I don't have to watch 1000+ packages try to individually update, running their scripts, etc, and hope nothing goes wrong. I just re-image each application service, once, when I want to update. Even the great anxiety of rolling distros, of what happens if I don't update for several weeks or months, is gone, as it is always installed as a clean snapshot image rather than trying to rebuild itself from individual packages all running scripts, and any one of which that may assume an update you may have missed had already been installed.

    If Richard Brown is proposing things like Micro OS with rolling single snapshot updates (and ideally an immutable rootfs) should entirely replace conventional servers, I could fully embrace that. If he is proposing that rolling distros should be the only form of all linux distros for all uses, which he also advocates, I feel he is dead wrong there. For example, for development work and generic desktops, having used both now, if I had to choose, I would pick leap over tumbleweed.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:30.

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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    I'm of two minds about this. So I continue to use Leap, but I have Tumbleweed there in another partition so that I can switch fairly easily.

    Each has its advantages and its disadvantages. But then the grass is always greener on the other side of the field.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:31.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Hi
    If your deploying an environment into production (desktop or server), then would be Leap for sure.....

    Home user systems, take your pick, I enjoy Tumbleweed, no major issues. Depends on the packages for big numbers, eg gcc was big, but most updates I get are not that big bandwidth or package count wise, it's been awhile since I saw anything close to 1000 in one update, maybe over a week at times perhaps. Since the first of the month 6 updates in total, kernel updates no issues with Nvidia installed the hard way, qemu machines all up and running, probably one thing about Tumbleweed is the need to get your hands dirty at times for the likes of Nvidia drivers. Older Nvidia hardware requires patches for drivers if you want to keep them going.

    I probably download more updates into my package caches for building rpms that I do for my system updates....
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:31.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    A strong blog post by Richard Brown, who is a unique technologist.
    And, as a unique technologist, he chose this moment to also evangelize MicroOS and describe how he architected his personal network server infrastructure.
    Only slight criticism I have is that Richard writes to an audience with a fairly high level of technical experience and expertise who already understands the reasons behind his choices. For many, the technical choices need to be translated into common everyday tasks and activities less technical people base their decisions on.

    Which is really cool.

    Because it's basically a modernized update of what I have implemented for years and still practice today.
    Richard builds on MicroOS.
    Because I (and many others like me) preferred a minimal system for single (or restricted) use before MicroOS existed or want the flexibility to use virtualization instead of containers, I have been using JeOS or a very minimal "server" version of LEAP.
    I strongly advocate a multi-tenant approach.
    I utilize a combination of various virtualization technologies and containers.
    Richard advocates containers.
    Richard relies heavily on Transactional Server to manage updates and Snapper to roll back when necessary.
    For those who can sustain a downtime for the time it takes to identify a problem, diagnose, make a decision to undo and then to determine exactly how to use Snapper to undo the problem, that might be OK but would be unacceptable in many situations where the QoS is high for any of a number of different reasons.

    I don't know if it's a matter of style of Development, but I generally set up Development as Richard and I describe.. In virtual machines or containers. But, within those Development Environments, I deploy code managers and otherwise ensure that coding targets specific platforms using specific standardized frameworks that don't change regardless of anything else that might be happening on the machine.

    IMO the one most important thing that Richard omits from his blog is what I consider the most obvious strong point for Transactional Server on whatever distro version (It's available for use on TW, Leap, MicroOS), is its imperviousness to compromise based on writing anything to disk... Because of course the disk partition is RO when mounted.

    IMO,
    TSU
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:31.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by nrickert View Post
    I'm of two minds about this. So I continue to use Leap, but I have Tumbleweed there in another partition so that I can switch fairly easily.

    Each has its advantages and its disadvantages. But then the grass is always greener on the other side of the field.
    I knew this would be an interesting topic. Richard Brown has convinced me that rolling makes perfect sense for typical containers, which are often built on demand anyway, and are updated as whole image installs. Also obs makes it so easy to auto-rebuild the individual packages destined for containers on tumbleweed. The oci busybox tumbleweed image as a base image, while maybe not as small as alpine can be, is certainly small enough given other advantages, as the real strength is in leveraging obs as a means to go from a pile of code to production delivery on containers pipeline. I could also like the idea of microos rolling with image updates as the host os for the containers.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:31.

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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    I don't know if it's a matter of style of Development, but I generally set up Development as Richard and I describe.. In virtual machines or containers. But, within those Development Environments, I deploy code managers and otherwise ensure that coding targets specific platforms using specific standardized frameworks that don't change regardless of anything else that might be happening on the machine.
    I actually use lxc images for some development purposes, as the environment is more mutable than a container offers, and more performant than a vm. But I do personally prefer working on a native os directly.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:32.

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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    One of the things I'd like to emphasize, is that Richard's blogpost no doubt is an attempt to start discussion about this idea, hence his somewhat provocative writing style. And given this thread and some others I've seen in various places, that attempt is pretty successful.
    I had some small conversation with Richard on Discord about this hackweek project, and I like the concept, the philosophy . Specially if think of server setups.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:32.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Small comment on the use of Busybox which I wasn't aware of...
    As I described in my Presentation back in 2016 (2016 - The Year of IoT and Taking Down the Internet), a major reason for those incidents is that unlike conventional Linux which has typically delivered User tools as individual app files, Busybox compiled a vast amount of those tools in a single binary and sym-linked to retain legacy/conventional access.

    The downside of that was that Busybox couldn't be upgraded, and therefor even today a great many devices on the Internet are sitting there as targets for intrusion.

    That may be less of an issue today and especially on openSUSE since
    - A large number of those same tiny User apps are now integrated into the Linux kernel
    - Each time a container is upgraded, everything in it gets upgraded anyway... Individual apps can be replaced with newer versions because there is a replacement mechanism which doesn't exist in many embedded "IoT" devices.

    TSU
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:32.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmlewis View Post
    ..., it's been awhile since I saw anything close to 1000 in one update, ...
    You probably aren't using Latex.
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:33.
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    Default Re: openSUSE Docker/Podman; MicroOS, Leap or Tumbleweed?

    Hi
    @dyfet and @tsu2, can you provide your use cases?

    What benefits do these technology's offer to the average user?

    @dyfet, perhaps your Thread title is not descriptive enough for our Forum readers, perhaps it should be updated?
    Last edited by malcolmlewis; 16-Feb-2020 at 07:33.
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