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Thread: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyfet View Post
    Indeed, and this is why I had already come to adopt AlpineLinux for those uses. I wish OBS had Alpine as a supported distro.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyfet View Post
    Indeed, and this is why I had already come to adopt AlpineLinux for those uses. I wish OBS had Alpine as a supported distro.
    I don't know what your plan is for distributing and deploying the app you intend to build...

    If you decided on Docker as an example which would mean that once your app is built, it could probably be found and deployed nearly instantly on any Linux or MSWindows HostOS, Of course a MSWindows HostOS would likely be running a linux environment hosted on Hyper-V to run your containers.
    You would start by downloading and deploying the base image. For Alpine Linux, you would "pull" your image from any of the following
    https://hub.docker.com/search?q=alpine&type=image

    Then you would build your Docker file...
    A Docker file essentially is a script that contains all the actions you want to be performerd on the base image... like updating (or upgrading), app installation, configuration, more.

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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    I don't know what your plan is for distributing and deploying the app you intend to build...
    Well, I would want a buildah (or docker file) or ansible playbook I can point to a public repo with my own apk's made of custom builds, and assemble my parts from that. Ansible, in particular, because I already host a cloud server that runs alpine directly, I have considered similar uses on arm, and I am involved in a risc-v effort that is using alpine. So most of my use cases are not even containers.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    The way Docker is set up, they encourage people to build containers of any type that that might be interesting, and are willing to host those containers for free... for public use(even if conceivably very few, maybe only you would have any interest). If you want to publish something privately, then you would have to host your own server...

    Again, the attraction isn't that you would deploy on bare metal, you would be building something that could be deployed on any machine running docker no matter the distro or even MSWindows.

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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    The way Docker is set up, they encourage people to build containers of any type that that might be interesting, and are willing to host those containers for free... for public use(even if conceivably very few, maybe only you would have any interest). If you want to publish something privately, then you would have to host your own server...

    Again, the attraction isn't that you would deploy on bare metal, you would be building something that could be deployed on any machine running docker no matter the distro or even MSWindows.

    TSU
    I am actually mostly interested at the moment in building services on arm (like for raspberry pi for example), or even risc-v, that can be deployed and used at the edge / for IoT. OpenSUSE actually has a very good range of board support, in some ways is even more universal than Debian, and OBS can build opensuse arm packages easily and freely, though most people do not seem to make use of that, given that most people in the community do not seem to build beyond x86 and amd64 on OBS. But this kind of use was also why I had initially looked at the JeOS arm images. For containers, I did find what you had suggested about openSUSE MicroOS really fascinating, though, as I do also see eventually deploying services in the cloud that would then talk to edge endpoints.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyfet View Post
    I am actually mostly interested at the moment in building services on arm (like for raspberry pi for example), or even risc-v, that can be deployed and used at the edge / for IoT. OpenSUSE actually has a very good range of board support, in some ways is even more universal than Debian, and OBS can build opensuse arm packages easily and freely, though most people do not seem to make use of that, given that most people in the community do not seem to build beyond x86 and amd64 on OBS. But this kind of use was also why I had initially looked at the JeOS arm images. For containers, I did find what you had suggested about openSUSE MicroOS really fascinating, though, as I do also see eventually deploying services in the cloud that would then talk to edge endpoints.
    Note that images for mobile devices aren't directly related to JeOS, but at least in RaspPi,
    It's commonly known that Debian created a completely unique approach to build Raspbian... and it's practically night and day how much better designed and easier to enhance and maintain than Uboot which all other distros use(eg try adding special hardware drivers on boot, on Raspbian you only need to add a 4-6 line config stanza, last I checked Uboot required massive convoluted configurations, commands and files)... Too bad the Raspbian approach supposedly uses some proprietary code which makes it off-limits for distros like openSUSE.

    But otherwise,
    I'm not sure that JeOS should necessarily be that different across its many possible implementations, there probably would have to be some platform considerations like the likely fact that no ARM device code is likely found in an upstream main kernel, but otherwise I'd assume that once a release has been refactored, the same methods can be applied to all other releases.

    AFAIK MicroOS may be a kind of JeOS in its design but is not officially labeled as such. In fact, I've speculated that MicroOS may have been created from the ground up rather than a typical JeOS approach which is likely based on removing everything non-essential from a working release.

    Note also that AFAIK MicroOS is distributed only for use in Kubic (SUSE CAASP which is own flavor of Kubernetes). If you build a "normal" Docker container, you'll likely be using a different JeOS.

    Note that much of this post is based on personal observation and speculation and not hard facts...
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    Note that images for mobile devices aren't directly related to JeOS, but at least in RaspPi,
    It's commonly known that Debian created a completely unique approach to build Raspbian... and it's practically night and day how much better designed and easier to enhance and maintain than Uboot which all other distros use(eg try adding special hardware drivers on boot, on Raspbian you only need to add a 4-6 line config stanza, last I checked Uboot required massive convoluted configurations, commands and files)... Too bad the Raspbian approach supposedly uses some proprietary code which makes it off-limits for distros like openSUSE.
    Yes, but they actually boot thru the gpu, and that is what the blob is for.

    In my case, I have been exploring where I want to use openSUSE. For development workstations that's a rather easy and clear choice to make. This is especially true now that I had figured out it is not all that hard to make my produceit package work on openSUSE. For more conventional enterprise servers and infrastructure needs, including telephony servers, it is clearly a good choice too. But for containers, for edge devices, it has the potential, but those do not feel as clear or compelling to me. It would be nice to unify around a single distro that really does it all, but I had already started using Alpine for those other more specialized roles.

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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Tsu, I did think about this a lot, actually. Of course I had looked at microOS, though it seems to only be a factory/tumbleweed thing at the moment. There is also opensuse busybox, too, which might be much better/smaller than JeOS, but again it is currently a tumbleweed experiment. So while I have thought of using docker much like you suggest, this actually also pushed me back to looking at Alpine and debmini for a small, and more important to me, longer term stable docker base images/build environments. If these get into a future leap type of support cycle, I will look at that again. But I am really happy with my leap desktop systems, and with the idea of using leap for other traditional enterprise server roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    I don't know what your plan is for distributing and deploying the app you intend to build...

    If you decided on Docker as an example which would mean that once your app is built, it could probably be found and deployed nearly instantly on any Linux or MSWindows HostOS, Of course a MSWindows HostOS would likely be running a linux environment hosted on Hyper-V to run your containers.
    You would start by downloading and deploying the base image. For Alpine Linux, you would "pull" your image from any of the following
    https://hub.docker.com/search?q=alpine&type=image

    Then you would build your Docker file...
    A Docker file essentially is a script that contains all the actions you want to be performerd on the base image... like updating (or upgrading), app installation, configuration, more.

    TSU

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyfet View Post
    Tsu, I did think about this a lot, actually. Of course I had looked at microOS, though it seems to only be a factory/tumbleweed thing at the moment. There is also opensuse busybox, too, which might be much better/smaller than JeOS, but again it is currently a tumbleweed experiment. So while I have thought of using docker much like you suggest, this actually also pushed me back to looking at Alpine and debmini for a small, and more important to me, longer term stable docker base images/build environments. If these get into a future leap type of support cycle, I will look at that again. But I am really happy with my leap desktop systems, and with the idea of using leap for other traditional enterprise server roles.
    Since this thread started (and perhaps before), Tumbleweed releases JeOS images primarily as pre-built for various virtualization technologies... Which is interesting but I've never found a Use case. I've personally preferred to use regular x64 install media wherever it will work, and use pre-built images wherever using an install source would be impossible or extremely inconvenient (like mobile and embedded systems). I'm guessing someone found the need to create some JeOS for the cloud (OpenStack?) and decided as long as the work was done then might as well make them available to others, but to me it's a rather narrow Use case.

    The point I guess is that any person can create their own JeOS by removing whatever they want, likely starting with all documentation, unnecessary libraries and tools (used to be many tools were deployed as User Mode installed by packages but today basic system and networking tools are often integrated upstream in the kernel). You can even remove YaST (with its entire Ruby susbsystem dependency) if you wish. There's a lot you can do on your own to create your "Golden Image" simply by using the libzypp Package Managers.

    Only when or if you should want to trim more, then you'd have to look at a modified kernel and only then I'd maybe consider looking at another distro willing to support the time before kernel mode utilities integration.

    When you make JeOS a requirement,
    You'll have to consider your reasons for doing so and only then identify exactly what you want or need.
    Many people find that the "Server" install option which installs without a DE is minimal enough, although not nearly as slimmed down as a proper JeOS.
    For all typical server or client use, I've so far found various openSUSE releases sufficient.
    Maybe if I ran into an issue that can't be satisfied like an embedded device with fixed and unexpandable storage, only then I'd look at alternatives and maybe consider something like Busybox (which strips common utilities to the minimum, then distributes as a single blob instead as individual files. Functionality emulating a Linux file structure is provided by symlinks. This is a common solution for inexpensive appliances) But for anything but other than such extreme scenarios, I've been able to use openSUSE, custom modified or not.

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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Why are JeOS arm images so humongous?

    Well, I ended up in a long convo with Chris Brown, who feels the Tumbleweed busybox opensuse image could become as tiny as an alpine one for docker images, but also seriously believes everyone should/must only run Tumbleweed for all production uses, and made his clear intent to never offer/work on enabling kubic/microOS support in Leap/outside of Tumbleweed. This also was part of why I went back to Alpine and Debian for devices and container root images. On the other hand, it also did lead me to explore using Tumbleweed more seriously. So I had setup a Tumbleweed dev system over the weekend which I also have been rather happy with so far. Certainly I would be happy to hear his argument, but I do remain skeptical about that direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    Since this thread started (and perhaps before), Tumbleweed releases JeOS images primarily as pre-built for various virtualization technologies... Which is interesting but I've never found a Use case. I've personally preferred to use regular x64 install media wherever it will work, and use pre-built images wherever using an install source would be impossible or extremely inconvenient (like mobile and embedded systems). I'm guessing someone found the need to create some JeOS for the cloud (OpenStack?) and decided as long as the work was done then might as well make them available to others, but to me it's a rather narrow Use case.

    The point I guess is that any person can create their own JeOS by removing whatever they want, likely starting with all documentation, unnecessary libraries and tools (used to be many tools were deployed as User Mode installed by packages but today basic system and networking tools are often integrated upstream in the kernel). You can even remove YaST (with its entire Ruby susbsystem dependency) if you wish. There's a lot you can do on your own to create your "Golden Image" simply by using the libzypp Package Managers.

    Only when or if you should want to trim more, then you'd have to look at a modified kernel and only then I'd maybe consider looking at another distro willing to support the time before kernel mode utilities integration.

    When you make JeOS a requirement,
    You'll have to consider your reasons for doing so and only then identify exactly what you want or need.
    Many people find that the "Server" install option which installs without a DE is minimal enough, although not nearly as slimmed down as a proper JeOS.
    For all typical server or client use, I've so far found various openSUSE releases sufficient.
    Maybe if I ran into an issue that can't be satisfied like an embedded device with fixed and unexpandable storage, only then I'd look at alternatives and maybe consider something like Busybox (which strips common utilities to the minimum, then distributes as a single blob instead as individual files. Functionality emulating a Linux file structure is provided by symlinks. This is a common solution for inexpensive appliances) But for anything but other than such extreme scenarios, I've been able to use openSUSE, custom modified or not.

    TSU

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