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Thread: net-tools-deprecated

  1. #1

    Default net-tools-deprecated

    Had we not learned from the past when dig was set to replace nslookup? I support multiple Unix operating systems at work and this set of common tools across Unix is heavily used. Pulling them will cause me to rewrite HUNDREDS of scripts just so we can keep using Suse at work. This may push us over to Big Blue owned RedHat. Please stop trying to fix things that are not broken.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Quote Originally Posted by evicmar View Post
    Had we not learned from the past when dig was set to replace nslookup? I support multiple Unix operating systems at work and this set of common tools across Unix is heavily used. Pulling them will cause me to rewrite HUNDREDS of scripts just so we can keep using Suse at work. This may push us over to Big Blue owned RedHat. Please stop trying to fix things that are not broken.
    Any link? I'm on Tumbleweed and see this:
    Code:
    knurpht@Knurpht-HP:~> rpm -qa | grep net-tools
    net-tools-2.0+git20180626.aebd88e-1.1.x86_64
    net-tools-deprecated-2.0+git20180626.aebd88e-1.1.x86_64
    net-tools-lang-2.0+git20180626.aebd88e-1.1.noarch
    knurpht@Knurpht-HP:~>
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  3. #3

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Here's a copy paste of the release notes.


    "The package net-tools-deprecated contains the obsolete tools that can be replaced with ip subcommands as below:

    • arp -> ip [r] neigh
    • route -> ip route
    • netstat -> ss [-r]
    • iptunnel -> ip tunnel
    • ipmaddr -> ip maddress
    • ifconfig -> ip address


    The tools hostname, domainname, dnsdomainname have been moved to the package hostname which is required bynet-tools and net-tools-deprecated."

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Now what is the question?

    I admit that one should read the release notes (or get a hint here on the forums) to know that one must install net-tools-depricated to have those tools. But after that, they work as they did for 40+ years.

    And when we take the history of the depricated (also by RedHat IIRC) nslookup as an example, It is still there after so many years, so why should the future of these toold not be bright?

    I also admit that I do not quite understand why something that is not broken is replaced. Even if one decides that the code is old and not easy adaptable to new extensions needed, then IMHO programming new code to provide the old user interface must be possible. After all the same was done when these tools were rebuild as GNU versions of the original Unix ones.
    Henk van Velden

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    On Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:56:03 +0000, evicmar wrote:

    > Had we not learned from the past when dig was set to replace nslookup? I
    > support multiple Unix operating systems at work and this set of common
    > tools across Unix is heavily used. Pulling them will cause me to rewrite
    > HUNDREDS of scripts just so we can keep using Suse at work. This may
    > push us over to Big Blue owned RedHat. Please stop trying to fix things
    > that are not broken.


    I'm not sure what the purpose is for telling a community of openSUSE
    users "don't do this or I might have to go to another distribution". If
    you feel a change to RedHat/Fedora/whatever is appropriate for you, then
    by all means, make the change. You have to do what's right for you.

    Like you, we're users here, not developers. You might ask a question on
    the openSUSE mailing list about the lifetime of the tool and when it's
    planned to be removed.

    Further, though, I'm not sure that replacing the use of 'nslookup' (which
    has been known to be on the way out for years now, and not just in
    openSUSE) in even hundreds of scripts is less work than replacing entire
    operating system installations.

    "Threats" like this really serve little purpose. I would instead suggest
    asking something around how long nslookup is likely to be supported, what
    strategies others are using to migrate to more modern tools like dig, and
    if there are other ways to mitigate the eventual migration and removal of
    a venerable tool like that.

    I can only add this, though - I've used ifconfig for years, and it has
    long since been replaced by the ip command.

    I still use ifconfig to this day, even on Leap 15.0.

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    First, regarding the use of dig vs nslookup, people would have to "dig" all the way back in history to 2002/2004 to re-discover details on that effort. I can't even get details on the very earliest origins of each, I only remember that it seems to me that dig has always existed since my earliest exposure to *NIX when the Web hardly existed and the Internet was purely bulletin boards and search servers you submitted a query one day and checked for results the following day. I learned about nslookup much later, so I personally <suspect> that dig existed prior to nslookup despite the effort to deprecate nslookup. In any case, the very fact that nslookup does not rely heavily on the system's name configuration is critical to troubleshooting problems and might be a major drawback using dig (I don't use it for troubleshooting).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nslookup

    Regarding the utilities in net-tools-deprecated, I think I understand the solid reasons for deprecating, it was done during a time when major efforts were made to transfer User-mode tools into Kernel-mode. The consequences for the entire effort as a whole resulted in better security, QA control, simplified management and distribution, and simplified commands which are also more informative... Basically, a time when every aspect of these long-used tools could undergo a once-in-a-lifetime review to evaluate how they work and what they do, and make changes from the ground up which might not be done again for generations of Users.

    But, I think that people like yourself who have built up major libraries and apps that rely on original methods have not been forgotten, and it's why packages like net-deprecated-tools exist and won't likely disappear for decades to come.

    Because this is integral to the Linux kernel, I don't know how you can avoid the way these tools are provided or used unless you just don't use Linux altogether. Enough time has passed (approx 4 years now) since this whole thing happened that I doubt even RHEL is any different except maybe that they provide the deprecated tools by default instead of as a separate package. If this really bothers you, it's not difficult to create your own customized openSUSE distribution for your own use with Kiwi or SUSE Studio with net-deprecated-tools already installed. Personally, it's just on my list of packages to install(among others, I also install mlocate, tree) after any new TW install today if a solution requires it so it's not like it's any more effort than usual.

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    I'm not sure what's the fuss here.

    I routinely install "net-tools-deprecated" so that old scripts will still work. I'll eventually get around to rewriting the scripts, but there does not seem to be any urgency.

    As for "dig" and "nslookup" -- I have been using "dig" for at least 25 years now, and "nslookup" still exists. Use whichever you prefer. I'm not seeing an issue.
    openSUSE Leap 15.1; KDE Plasma 5;

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    I'm guessing this became visible to the @OP only recently and so was surprised and possibly assumed that anything deprecated had limited time to live.

    Deprecated does usually mean that it will disappear "soon," but in this case not likely.
    And, the @OP may not be aware that the changeover actually happened almost half a decade ago, he just had not run into it popping up in any apparent way. If RHEL is still providing User-mode net tools by default, I endorse the openSUSE way instead... Providing deprecated tools by default only perpetuates its use because new code will continue to use those old tools. the openSUSE way continues to support what has always existed but makes a clear sign that new code ought to use the new tools instead.

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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Hi
    Isn't that why alias was invented?

    Code:
    alias arp='ip neigh'
    alias rarp='ip -r neigh'
    ...
    ...
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    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmlewis View Post
    Hi
    Isn't that why alias was invented?

    Code:
    alias arp='ip neigh'
    alias rarp='ip -r neigh'
    ...
    ...
    Code:
    boven:~ # arpAddress                  HWtype  HWaddress           Flags Mask            Iface
    beneden.henm.xs4all.nl   ether   a0:d3:c1:3d:3f:bc   C                     enp1s8
    adsl.henm.xs4all.nl      ether   c0:25:06:4e:59:81   C                     enp1s8
    boven:~ # ip neigh
    fe80::c225:6ff:fe4e:5981 dev enp1s8 lladdr c0:25:06:4e:59:81 router STALE
    10.0.0.155 dev enp1s8 lladdr a0:d3:c1:3d:3f:bc STALE
    10.0.0.138 dev enp1s8 lladdr c0:25:06:4e:59:81 REACHABLE
    boven:~ #
    That is not the same formatted output. And the OP wrote in post #1
    Pulling them will cause me to rewrite HUNDREDS of scripts just so we can keep using Suse at work.
    I doubt an alias will help him (or me) in adapting the scripts easy.
    Henk van Velden

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