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Thread: net-tools-deprecated

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Loma Linda, Mo

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    It is probably the dumb Microsoft Effect - if it works - change it so it doesn't or make it so it requires newer hardware. We are at the point where Linux is forgetting about 32 bit systems - we have already forgotten about 16 bit systems which I learned on. Tandy and Convergent had nice 16bit Unix in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

    Or the Intel effect - if we add memory - we need applications to use it all - everyone should have to use Unix on a 16 bit computer with 16K of ram and disks that were 5MB (2.5mb of 16bit words) - then you would understand why we had seperate file systems. I started with Unix on a PDP11-30 in 1973 with 2 5MB hard drives and 16K of ram. Had to compile all the pieces on a PDP11-45 as it had enough memory to comple the Unix kernel the PDP11-30 did not. For the newbees - the RK05 hard disk took about 15 minutes to write all 5MB of data. It was a lot faster than the cassette tape drives we ran programs from.

    Nothing added to Unix/Linux since System V except the removal of the system panics and the conversion to streams have made any sense.

    Unix added sysadmin to allow non-unix systems programmers to admin their Unix and not know why it works - now we have YAST - another crutch that allows the same thing - the sad part is everyting the YAST GUI does is a command line instruction that should have been done from a command prompt. Learn Unix/Linux.

    We had X - but we want to make it look like Windows - why? I have moved to MATE because it feels like old gnome - the new gnome feels like Microsoft Windows - the worlds worst virus.

    We had C and C+ but it was too compact, protable, and hard to learn - so we replaced it with oversized slow Java - the most easily to compromise a system with language with her is a jar that does what you need - sorry it it spys on you. If you could program you wouldn't be spyed on.

    We had init - but we wanted to remove it for systemd - for a few seconds more startup time?

    We had lpadmin - now we have Apple's crutch CUPS - still does lpadmin commands but hidden from the user.

    We have cron - but we replace it with systemd timers - If we wanted smaller timers - we wrote our own schedulers to do that.

    Now the old Ethernet tools are being replace with a one size fits all replacement.

    If you have to support 1,000's of Unix/Linux systems spread around the world like I had to - you would discover the the GUI cannot do the job - It all has to be scripted and every possible error has to be scripted for.

    I agree with those that are complaining about the "new and improved" commands - are they better? The still haven't made it user freindly.

    It is sad that the GeckoLinux distribution with MATE is easier to install than the Opensuse Distributions. I have install that for many Windows 8 and 10 users that hated the new interface. It looks more like the XP and Vista interface. It is sad that there still over 250 Million Windows XP still running. Almost every ATM and Cash Register is running XP beneith the surface.

    End of rant.
    Opensuse 15.1 with VirtualBox VM's (Windows 98, XP, 7, 8.1, 10 & OpenSUSE 15.0)

    Unix since 1974 (pdp-11 in "B" , Interdata 7/32 in "C") (AT&T, Tandy, Convergent, IBM, NCR, HP flavors)
    Linux since 1995 (mandrake, redhat, fedora, centos, now OpenSUSE)

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Groningen, Netherlands
    Blog Entries

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Eh, feel free to use the credentials you use here and login on, branch the net-tools-deprecated package and it's deps and keep building and maintaining it for as many future versions as you like. That will buy you the time to rearrange your hundreds of scripts ( hint: salt stack, change a couple of states and all back to normal ) . You even have the option to build your own openSUSE based distro incl. your own modifications, scripts etc.

    Another thing that comes to mind is admtinistration / maintenance. We all rely on 3rd party stuff, i.e. things we do not develop ourselves. Part of the maintenance and administration of software should be the keeping up with reliability of underlying technology. Which for me f.e. means that using Flash on a website is a no go. This implies that maintenance also should involve these scripts IMNSHO. Meaning they should be/have been planned to be rewriten, or at least evaluated.

    Please do consider that the openSUSE Project had the decency to provide the net-tools-deprecated package, instead of simply announcing removal, removing. The fact that the package also exists for Tumbleweed to me means there's no reason for panic or ranting.
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  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Nürnberg, Germany

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    End of rant.
    Thank you, larryr. I appreciate rants like yours immensely and unironically. Many users today (no matter what platform) have no idea how all this modern information technology originated from, and it's veterans of the industry like you who can put things into perspective.

    »When I was a boy…« (cue fireplace-guitar music), I've learned K&R C and Unix (well, Minix/MiNT/Linux68k) on my Atari ST until I was properly introduced to Digital Unix, HP/UX and finally S.u.S.E. Linux 4.1 in the 1990s, and from time to time, I enjoy reminding my fellow computerised humans around me where it all came from myself.

    If it ain't broken, don't fix it. It's true, but in the case of systemd I'd like to make an exception. I despised hacking those startup/shutdown shellscripts on some of these Unix/Linux systems with a passion, and systemd made me motivated again to optimize my boots after a long while. My main rig at home (5 years old i5, SSD, nothing special) boots into KDE/Plasma5 with NetworkManager (wicked would be too slow) in about 3 seconds: »Startup finished in 233ms (kernel) + 691ms (initrd) + 491ms (userspace) = 1.415s« according to systemd-analyze was my personal record a few days ago, on average it's more like 1.6 to 1.7 seconds.

    Aside from learning about concurrency within the boot processes, I also shut my rig down more often than before, because a cold boot is virtually as fast as a wake from hibernation – which is also nice for my peace of mind. Again, thanks for the awesome rant. Cheers!

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Kamloops, BC, Canada

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    Quote Originally Posted by unix111 View Post
    Thank you, larryr. I appreciate rants like yours immensely and unironically. Many users today (no matter what platform) have no idea how all this modern information technology originated from, and it's veterans of the industry like you who can put things into perspective.
    ... yes, indeed.

    Why, ah'll tell ya, young feller ...

    Back in mah day, when ah was knee-haigh to a grasshopper, the peoples did not have no such thing as computers, nary a one!

    Things were jes' fine, like that, in them days, nuthin' was broke in thet way, ah declare!

    Wish they would have followed the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra, 'cause there would be no Facebook, no Twits, no Hackers and no Spammers.
    -Gerry Makaro
    Fraser-Bell Info Tech
    Solving Tech Mysteries since the Olden Days!
    If I helped you, consider clicking the Star at the bottom left of my post.

  5. #15

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    If memory serves the init scripts went deprecated, default became systemd but you could still install init scripts and it would not install systemd. Also OpenSuSE promised that they would not remove init scripts till the next major number release(12). A few months later in the same major number release(11) it was systemd only.

    Yes aliases are great. The listed example of ss -r to replace netstat just is nothing like the original at ALL. None of the common flags used on the original commands would carry over as expected. That is not a solution and clearly not thought out.

    I am fully aware of the other commands that came out. However in a mixed environment common commands are crucial for success. The beauty of Unix and Unix based operating systems is that the commands should mostly be the same. Up until recently ifconfig existed by default on ever distribution I support (Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, RHEL, SLES) at work.

    I fought to get SuSE back in house after the systemd conversion happened and our company dropped SLES. Once RHEL7 came out that made it real easy to get SLES back in. If SuSE does the same with the common network tools in every distro it did with systemd and init scripts......I may no longer be supporting SuSE at work. I will not have a say in the matter.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    San Diego, Ca, USA
    Blog Entries

    Default Re: net-tools-deprecated

    As others have described, I doubt that aliasing the new tools is a workable solution. As I described in my earlier post it appears that the various network tools were re-built completely from the ground up in every way without regard to backwards compatibility, only to provide better tools for the future.

    So, if you have legacy scripts which require the old network tools, the only workable solution should be what SUSE is doing, which is to provide the old tools when needed.
    I'm not aware of any situation where a legacy script would be broken when net-tools-deprecated is installed... and I can't think of a reason why anything else would be expected.

    On the other hand,
    On the general subject of new replacing old (The net tools change should be considered a kernel project while systemd does not include the kernel), other commands and subsystems replaced by systemd may not be as backwards compatible... In the Forums over the years there have been the few incidences where maybe an old init command might work without arguments, but if you try to pass the command with arguments, that won't work. You just have to update to the systemd Unit file instead, but usually those changes are almost trivial (but yes, has to be done even if the required effort is minimal).

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