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Thread: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

  1. #1

    Default openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    3 observations:

    1. A new version of Leap is released every 12 months.
    2. Each Leap release is supported for 18 months from release.
    3. No Leap to date has enjoyed Evergreen support.

    In effect, this forces openSUSE users to update their Leap version every year whether or not they want to. While regular updates may excite GNU/Linux enthusiasts, it comes at an unwelcome cost for more conservative users. It's heartening to see an increasing number of `senior' GNU/Linux newcomers to openSUSE, but forcing such users to start again from scratch every year (upgrades aren't guaranteed to work and often break things!) would be an undesirable consequence of the current model. It's also worth bearing in mind that no version of Microsoft Windows has ever enforced such a high frequency of version updates.

    I therefore wish to propose that starting from Leap 42.3 (which is very stable), openSUSE reintroduces Evergreen support with a total of 36 months of support. The current lack of long-term support is a glaring omission from the Leap model and takes away an important choice enjoyed previously by openSUSE users. While dropping live-media and 32-bit are minor issues (both of which I actually support), dropping Evergreen is probably a step too far. What do the community think?

  2. #2

    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by flymail View Post
    3 observations:

    1. A new version of Leap is released every 12 months.
    2. Each Leap release is supported for 18 months from release.
    This is incorrect

    A new service pack/minor version of Leap is released each calendar year, aligned with SUSE Enterprise. This can be longer (or shorter) than 12 months.

    Each Leap service pack is supported until 6 months after the release of the next one for that current codestream.

    Each leap major release is supported for several years

    In otherwords, Leap 15.0s Release has no impact on 42.3s support life cycle which is currently expected to end on jan 31 2019.

    The alignment with SLE service packs is important to realise.

    All leap releases are dependant on suse for releasing the same maintenance updates for Leap that they do for SLE

    SLE customers have a same lifecycle for service packs as Leap. They have the same expected pace for when to upgrade. But they pay for it.

    Any suggestion that leaps lifecycle is extended beyond the lifecycle of SLE service will not have the support of SUSE. There is no way SUSE will provide for free to openSUSE more support than they provide to their own customers. That would be silly.

    . While dropping live-media and 32-bit are minor issues (both of which I actually support), dropping Evergreen is probably a step too far. What do the community think?
    Live media was not dropped.

    Evergreen was dropped by the community due to lack of interest in the community. All of the evergreen maintainers quit because the Leap lifecycle fit what they wanted unlike the old openSUSE lifecycle.

    I expect that lack of interest will remain the same, or the interest available will not be significantly high to motivate sufficient people to do for free the significant amount of work which even SUSE can’t justify for thier paying customers.
    Last edited by RBrownSUSE; 07-Jul-2018 at 04:46.

  3. #3

    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Also “forcing users to start from scratch”???

    what planet are you on? We’ve had a fully supported process for in place upgrades between releases since like forever

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    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by flymail View Post
    In effect, this forces openSUSE users to update their Leap version every year whether or not they want to.
    I think you are looking at this wrongly. And I'll note that Richard Brown has already given a detailed response.

    Previously with openSUSE, each release has been new. And I have always done a clean install (keeping "/home" unchanged). But, with Leap it has been different. Each release of the 42.x series has been a continuation rather than a new release.

    My tentative plans with Leap 15.x will be to upgrade in place. Yes, I'll do clean test installs for testing. But on my regular systems, I'll just update the repo list, and do a "zypper dup" to update in place. That seems to fit better. Of course a fresh install for 16.0 (or whatever the next series is called). But within the 15.x series, these are not really new releases as much as they are major updates.
    openSUSE Leap 15.1; KDE Plasma 5;
    testing Leap 15.2Alpha

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    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    I've always kept /home and did a new / install, and that worked well of course, but with post-install work, obviously. Reinstalling applications, setting shares, networking and so on.

    Last year for the first time I did an in-place upgrade, from 42.2 to 42.3 in my backup desktop work machine. It was trouble free, with all repo-enabled applications also updated and keeping the same config. The result? I had a fully working machine in no more than a third of the time it takes to do a new install.

    It is simply brilliant, and a tribute to SUSE/openSUSE developers. They are my real world heroes, really.

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    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by brunomcl View Post
    I've always kept /home and did a new / install, and that worked well of course, but with post-install work, obviously. Reinstalling applications, setting shares, networking and so on.
    My usual, preferred method, as well.

    However, like Neil, I keep some spare space where I first test-install the new version with its own /home to see what is happening and to hammer out any issues.

    Once that is done, I do as above.

    Last year for the first time I did an in-place upgrade, from 42.2 to 42.3 in my backup desktop work machine. It was trouble free, with all repo-enabled applications also updated and keeping the same config. The result? I had a fully working machine in no more than a third of the time it takes to do a new install.
    Yes, I have also done this with some machines, usually trouble-free. I have recently upgraded a couple of machines from 42.3 to 15.0 this way, as well as other machines with the first method.

    It is simply brilliant, and a tribute to SUSE/openSUSE developers. They are my real world heroes, really.
    Yes, no kidding, hats off to their hard work.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by RBrownSUSE View Post
    Originally Posted by flymail: 3 observations:

    1. A new version of Leap is released every 12 months.
    2. Each Leap release is supported for 18 months from release.


    This is incorrect
    Perhaps the text in http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Leap should therefore be corrected since it seems to suggest quite clearly 18 months of support from release:

    The latest release of openSUSE Leap, 15.0, was released on May 25, 2018. Leap will have minor releases and users are expected to upgrade to the latest minor release within 6 months of its availability, leading to a life cycle of 18 months of maintenance and security updates per minor release.
    Quote Originally Posted by RBrownSUSE View Post
    A new service pack/minor version of Leap is released each calendar year, aligned with SUSE Enterprise. This can be longer (or shorter) than 12 months.

    Each Leap service pack is supported until 6 months after the release of the next one for that current codestream.

    Each leap major release is supported for several years

    In otherwords, Leap 15.0s Release has no impact on 42.3s support life cycle which is currently expected to end on jan 31 2019.
    Thanks for the clarification concerning major/minor releases. I have used openSUSE since version 5.3 (i.e. S.u.S.E.), and have always appreciated the facility for incremental upgrades. Normally they have worked very well but unfortunately they are not without problems for reasons often outside the developers' control (particularly in programming environments). As a result, except for laptops with a narrow range of computer applications, I always reinstall rather than upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by RBrownSUSE View Post
    Also “forcing users to start from scratch”???

    what planet are you on? We’ve had a fully supported process for in place upgrades between releases since like forever
    Along with the other contributors to this thread, the planet I am on is one where the preferred method of updating the Leap version is by reinstallation rather than in-place upgrading even though we are well aware of the upgrade option. On this same planet it is also considered rude to reply to polite well-intentioned posts in an offensive and condescending manner.

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    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by flymail View Post
    Perhaps the text in http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Leap should therefore be corrected since it seems to suggest quite clearly 18 months of support from release:
    It reads consistently to me. If I install version 15.X when it is first released, then I can expect 18 months of support (via security and maintenance patches). This is because 15.(x+1) will follow in ~12 months, and I have another 6 months before I'm expected to upgrade.
    openSUSE Leap 15.0; KDE Plasma 5

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    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by flymail View Post
    Perhaps the text in http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Leap should therefore be corrected since it seems to suggest quite clearly 18 months of support from release:
    These are wiki pages, feel free to correct them where necessary

    On this same planet it is also considered rude to reply to polite well-intentioned posts in an offensive and condescending manner.
    And on this same planet lives me, who also feels annoyance at yet another accusation of "them" forcing users to do whatever, specially if that's not true.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: openSUSE Leap 42.3 for Evergreen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knurpht View Post
    And on this same planet lives me, who also feels annoyance at yet another accusation of "them" forcing users to do whatever, specially if that's not true.
    It was not an accusation, but an observation. But I apologise for suggesting that the Leap users are compelled to perform release updates every 12 months based on the following EOLs:

    Leap 42.1 EOL 17th May 2017
    Leap 42.2 EOL 27th Jan 2018
    Leap 42.3 EOL 31st Jan 2019

    I stand corrected: openSUSE Leap users are forced to perform release updates every 8-12 months.

    Another observation: It is disappointing to see that an openSUSE forum administrator is willing to defend an offensive response to a polite and well-intended post.

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