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Thread: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    I've been on Tumbleweed for several years now. In those years I used a mixture between system tray updates (daily) and 'zypper dup' (every few days). I've never had any issues or incomplete updates due to this reason. Of course if there is a risk for a broken system, I fully agree it must be addressed... admittedly I've been annoyed at how the icon always only did partial updates and I also had to 'zypper dup' afterward.

    What upsets me is that a lot of people seem to think Tumbleweed users shouldn't have system tray updates at all: If we use a rolling release distribution, we're technically advanced users, so we know how to type 'zypper dup' in a console... therefore why would we need a common convenience such as a system tray icon to handle updates for us, when we can handle everything like the cool hackers? I know not everyone thinks that way, but when discussing those things I always got the impression it's how a lot of people feel. In reality, Tumbleweed users do expect the same cleanness and ease that a periodic (non-rolling) release offers, and the lack of a working tray updater now feels like an essential missing feature.
    openSUSE Tumbleweed x64, KDE Framework 5

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asksuser to run 'zypper dup' manually

    On Sun 24 Jun 2018 06:06:02 PM CDT, MirceaKitsune wrote:

    I've been on Tumbleweed for several years now. In those years I used a
    mixture between system tray updates (daily) and 'zypper dup' (every few
    days). I've never had any issues or incomplete updates due to this
    reason. Of course if there is a risk for a broken system, I fully agree
    it must be addressed... admittedly I've been annoyed at how the icon
    always only did partial updates and I also had to 'zypper dup'
    afterward.

    What upsets me is that a lot of people seem to think Tumbleweed users
    shouldn't have system tray updates at all: If we use a rolling release
    distribution, we're technically advanced users, so we know how to type
    'zypper dup' in a console... therefore why would we need a common
    convenience such as a system tray icon to handle updates for us, when we
    can handle everything like the cool hackers? I know not everyone thinks
    that way, but when discussing those things I always got the impression
    it's how a lot of people feel. In reality, Tumbleweed users do expect
    the same cleanness and ease that a periodic (non-rolling) release
    offers, and the lack of a working tray updater now feels like an
    essential missing feature.


    Hi
    Because Tumbleweed is also a test base for the next release and
    updates, so everything should be there and functional, just not
    needed....

    --
    Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890)
    SLES 15 | GNOME Shell 3.26.2 | 4.12.14-23-default
    If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
    please show your appreciation and click on the star below... Thanks!


  3. #13
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by eng-int View Post
    See this thread:
    https://forums.opensuse.org/showthre...pdate-properly

    I delete the PackageKit rpms as they serve no useful purpose in openSUSE. For Leap YaST-Online-Update is preferable.
    PackageKit is useful. Being configured properly it sends me a nice notification with subject "System updates available: erlangen" and a list of new and modified packages. Thus I definitely want to have it.

    Code:
    erlangen:~ # grep -v '#' /etc/sysconfig/packagekit-background
    ENABLED="yes"
    
    CHECK_ONLY="yes"
    
    MAILTO="karl"
    
    SYSTEM_NAME=""
    
    SLEEP_MAX="3600"
    
    UPDATE_OFFLINE="no"
    erlangen:~ #
    AMD Athlon 4850e (2009), openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4, Intel i3-4130 (2014), i7-6700K (2016), i5-8250U (2018), openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE Plasma 5

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by karlmistelberger View Post
    PackageKit is useful. Being configured properly it sends me a nice notification with subject "System updates available: erlangen" and a list of new and modified packages. Thus I definitely want to have it.
    This thread is labled “Tumbleweed”. Although there are current moves to make PackageKit Tumbleweed friendly, to date it has been concerned with “updates”. There are, for all practical purposes, no updates for Tumbleweed only “distribution upgrades”.

    Tumbleweed is not a rolling release in the same sense as e.g. Gentoo, where updated components are released individually, Rather it is more of a rapid release distribution. The practice of “updating” Tumbleweed has been a cause of many problems chronicled in this forum.

    As such you “helpful emails” must arrive about twice a week and list hundreds or thousands of rebuilt packages. There is no discrimination between security patches, major updates (which for e.g. KDE tend to be released in dribs and drabs over several upgrades) and no-change automatic rebuilds. You may enjoy reading them, but generally they serve no useful purpose, and most users would be better served with a weekly “zypper dup”.

    More generally, SuSE .. openSUSE have been well served by YaST Online Update, whereas PackageKit and its helpers (Kpackagekit, Apper, PackageKit-Qt etc.) have all been troublesome over the years. There is a price to pay for bling. S.u.S.E.,SuSE,SUSE (and to a slightly lesser extent openSUSE) brands have been historically distinguished by their inclination towards working, as opposed to hobbyist/enthusiast use. Some of those here are professional System Administrators and Managers. Whenever PackageKit escapes onto a workers desktop, technical support receives calls about update warnings in between scheduled maintenance.

    I, personally, would prefer PackageKit to be an option, but not installed by default. I also think that where someone is having a PackageKit-related problem the simple solution is to remove it. If you like it, I have no desire to deny you your pleasure; me, I prefer Bauhouse to Baroque.
    ~Thank you for sharing an interesting problem.
    --
    slàinte mhath,
    rayH

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by eng-int View Post
    This thread is labled “Tumbleweed”. Although there are current moves to make PackageKit Tumbleweed friendly, to date it has been concerned with “updates”. There are, for all practical purposes, no updates for Tumbleweed only “distribution upgrades”.
    I have Tumbleweed repositories and other repositories completely unrelated to Tumbleweed. My setup serves the practical purpose of managing lots of software with minimal effort. PackageKit notifies me whenever some package is out of date.

    Tumbleweed is not a rolling release in the same sense as e.g. Gentoo, where updated components are released individually, Rather it is more of a rapid release distribution. The practice of “updating” Tumbleweed has been a cause of many problems chronicled in this forum.
    Tumbleweed is snapshots of Factory. If you don't want to have them don't apply.


    As such you “helpful emails” must arrive about twice a week and list hundreds or thousands of rebuilt packages. There is no discrimination between security patches, major updates (which for e.g. KDE tend to be released in dribs and drabs over several upgrades) and no-change automatic rebuilds. You may enjoy reading them, but generally they serve no useful purpose, and most users would be better served with a weekly “zypper dup”.
    Be assured: Getting notified is useful. And I run zypper dup whenever convenient or needed.

    More generally, SuSE .. openSUSE have been well served by YaST Online Update, whereas PackageKit and its helpers (Kpackagekit, Apper, PackageKit-Qt etc.) have all been troublesome over the years. There is a price to pay for bling. S.u.S.E.,SuSE,SUSE (and to a slightly lesser extent openSUSE) brands have been historically distinguished by their inclination towards working, as opposed to hobbyist/enthusiast use. Some of those here are professional System Administrators and Managers. Whenever PackageKit escapes onto a workers desktop, technical support receives calls about update warnings in between scheduled maintenance.
    There is absolutely no trouble associated with PackageKit: I unchecked Software Updates in the System Tray Settings. Then I enabled background operation and notification using Yast /etc/sysconfig Editor.

    I, personally, would prefer PackageKit to be an option, but not installed by default. I also think that where someone is having a PackageKit-related problem the simple solution is to remove it. If you like it, I have no desire to deny you your pleasure; me, I prefer Bauhouse to Baroque.
    Again: being notified is not for pleasure. I would never want to poll for information. And I would never want to have a scheduled weekly zypper dup.
    AMD Athlon 4850e (2009), openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4, Intel i3-4130 (2014), i7-6700K (2016), i5-8250U (2018), openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE Plasma 5

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    May I add a suggestion for a compromise? The issue is that the Software Updates applet uses PackageKit, which only supports the equivalent of "zypper up" and not "zypper dup". So what if instead of the current approach, which has now changed to the applet telling you "run 'zypper dup' manually", the applet could launch a console with the command ran automatically?

    When you click the Install button after being informed of the updates, it could basically popup a console with 'zypper dup' automatically executing as the first command. The user is prompted to input the root password, and can follow the update progress in this console as they would if they opened it themselves. When the console finishes and closes, it calls the applet back and informs it to refresh so that it notices the updates were installed.

    Sorry if I'm reviving old discussion here: Just wanted to know what people think of this option since I don't think it's been brought up yet. Having the applet constantly tell you "do it yourself" on Tumbleweed is a big annoyance, especially since after you install updates the notification won't go away. This could be an useful temporary solution to the problem.
    openSUSE Tumbleweed x64, KDE Framework 5

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by MirceaKitsune View Post
    May I add a suggestion ...
    Please read the many other threads on this topic. If you keep thinking about “updates” you are in the wrong mindset.

    In this domain “update” means applying patches and bug-fixes to the running distribution version -- e.g. Leap-42.3 or Leap-5.0.

    To change between versions (e.g. from Leap-42.3 to Leap-15.0) we “upgrade”, and the recommended method is via a downloaded bootable .iso image. This is because things work better when the system being upgraded is not running at the time.

    • The “dup“ in “zypper dup” is an abbreviation for “distribution-upgrade”. For all practical purposes there are no updates for Tumbleweed.
    • All TW snapshots are in effect new distribution versions.

    It would be better if PackageKit restricted itself to monitoring the Update-Tumbleweed repositories, then there would not be frequent notifications about thousands of new packages; but this would be inconsistent with its behaviour in other distributions. My preference is that it should remain in the repository, but be removed from the patterns so that it is not automatically installed. The pop-up is too enticing for tyros and leads to a large proportion of the Tumbleweed problems.

    If there is a requirement/wish for a graphical desktop upgrade mechanism for inexperienced users of a distribution specifically advised only for the experienced or experts, then I think it should download the current NET image, install it in the swap partition and then boot from that into upgrade mode (somewhat in the manner of restarting after hibernation.

    Please no more about “updating” Tumbleweed.
    ~Thank you for sharing an interesting problem.
    --
    slàinte mhath,
    rayH

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by eng-int View Post
    Please read the many other threads on this topic. If you keep thinking about “updates” you are in the wrong mindset.

    In this domain “update” means applying patches and bug-fixes to the running distribution version -- e.g. Leap-42.3 or Leap-5.0.

    To change between versions (e.g. from Leap-42.3 to Leap-15.0) we “upgrade”, and the recommended method is via a downloaded bootable .iso image. This is because things work better when the system being upgraded is not running at the time.

    • The “dup“ in “zypper dup” is an abbreviation for “distribution-upgrade”. For all practical purposes there are no updates for Tumbleweed.
    • All TW snapshots are in effect new distribution versions.

    It would be better if PackageKit restricted itself to monitoring the Update-Tumbleweed repositories, then there would not be frequent notifications about thousands of new packages; but this would be inconsistent with its behaviour in other distributions. My preference is that it should remain in the repository, but be removed from the patterns so that it is not automatically installed. The pop-up is too enticing for tyros and leads to a large proportion of the Tumbleweed problems.

    If there is a requirement/wish for a graphical desktop upgrade mechanism for inexperienced users of a distribution specifically advised only for the experienced or experts, then I think it should download the current NET image, install it in the swap partition and then boot from that into upgrade mode (somewhat in the manner of restarting after hibernation.

    Please no more about “updating” Tumbleweed.
    It's easy to get used to calling Tumbleweed snapshots updates, even if they are theoretically more like distribution updates. If wording it this way is better, I'd like to see the applet being able to do distribution upgrades as well.

    My suggestion stays otherwise: Could the Software Updates applet scan for new Tumbleweed snapshots, then automatically launch a console with "zypper dup" when clicking the install button? This still feels like the most convenient way while also perfectly safe.
    openSUSE Tumbleweed x64, KDE Framework 5

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by MirceaKitsune View Post
    Could the Software Updates applet scan for new Tumbleweed snapshots, then automatically launch a console with "zypper dup" when clicking the install button? This still feels like the most convenient way while also perfectly safe.
    In which case why not skip the update applet stage and go straight to terminal - zypper dup. It gives you the list you want and you input "y". What could be easier than that? And you can do that as often as you want.
    Pete

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Software Updates widget can no longer install packages, asks user to run 'zypper dup' manually

    Quote Originally Posted by MirceaKitsune View Post
    My suggestion stays otherwise
    Now you want normal, unskilled users to be prompted (encouraged) to change their system software (distribution) without careful consideration. SUSE and openSUSE Linux are really stable and reliable until people start changing them without following the documented recommendations.

    Owners should be free to change their systems any way they wish. But it is irresponsible for others to persuade them to risk breaking functionality.

    It sounds almost as if you are in the business of selling paid-for support.
    Or perhaps this is another Halloween Document intended to persuade the world that all Linux distributions are unstable, buggy, not to be trusted and that there is no useful software that does not come from Redmond.

    Maybe you are selling bandwidth. Tumbleweed installations are big. Not everyone wants to upgrade two or three times a week. I have 32-bit minimal TW hosts that get upgraded approximately annually.
    ~Thank you for sharing an interesting problem.
    --
    slàinte mhath,
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