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Thread: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

  1. #1

    Exclamation Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    Why does the general Linux community not seem to care about the Linux Standard Base (LSB )and any sort of standards? We need more compatibility across the distributions and to stop the rampant fracturing within the community. With Microsoft closing in on the Linux community, we need to unite as a community, instead of further fracture and become weaker for it.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the LinuxCommunity

    On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 23:26:02 +0000, Panaman wrote:

    > Why does the general Linux community not seem to care about the Linux
    > Standard Base (LSB )and any sort of standards? We need more
    > compatibility across the distributions and to stop the rampant
    > fracturing within the community. With Microsoft closing in on the Linux
    > community, we need to unite as a community, instead of further fracture
    > and become weaker for it.


    What makes you think that the Linux community doesn't care about "any
    sort of standards"?

    There are plenty of parts of Linux that not only conform to, but drive
    standards.

    Jim
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    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    First,
    It should be understood that conforming with standards is diametrically opposed to innovation, at the least standards compliance restricts the possibility of better options and worse may cause people to not even consider those possibilities.

    In a way the tension between conformity and innovation is fundamental to all aspects around us, we profess to want both when having both in their entirety is impossible.

    This is why typically we decide on which principle to follow on a case by case basis but cannot claim to always follow one or the other (or this is how people become brainless chauvinists).

    It looks like the LSB is one vision of what Linux as a whole should be, but some requirements are amusingly impossible... Like requiring RPM package management as described in the following Wikipedia article on LSB. It should not be surprising that by essentially excluding the entire galaxy of aptitude distros, this isn't going anywhere

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base

    And, by and large SUSE/openSUSE does seem to be very compliant compared to other distros, apparently SUSE 10 was certified for LSB 3.1 (same Wikipedia article).

    TSU
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    First,
    It should be understood that conforming with standards is diametrically opposed to innovation, at the least standards compliance restricts the possibility of better options and worse may cause people to not even consider those possibilities.

    In a way the tension between conformity and innovation is fundamental to all aspects around us, we profess to want both when having both in their entirety is impossible.

    This is why typically we decide on which principle to follow on a case by case basis but cannot claim to always follow one or the other (or this is how people become brainless chauvinists).

    It looks like the LSB is one vision of what Linux as a whole should be, but some requirements are amusingly impossible... Like requiring RPM package management as described in the following Wikipedia article on LSB. It should not be surprising that by essentially excluding the entire galaxy of aptitude distros, this isn't going anywhere

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base

    And, by and large SUSE/openSUSE does seem to be very compliant compared to other distros, apparently SUSE 10 was certified for LSB 3.1 (same Wikipedia article).

    TSU

    I would disagree with the fact that standards are "diametrically opposed to innovation". I would say they promote innovation by giving developers confidence that what they build will be available to the entire Linux community with only having to maintain one version of there app or program. And i realize that requiring RPM package management is hard, but the fact that there is a split in package managers and formats doesnt help anyone. And if requiring RPM package management isnt the answer, shouldnt the Linux comunity come together to agree on a package management or create a new one to uphold to? It wouldnt be easy, but i think being more unified would attract a lot more users to the community of Linux as a whole on the desktop and server side.

    I dont mean to sound like an ass. Just trying to have a good conversation/debate

  5. #5

    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the LinuxCommunity

    Quote Originally Posted by hendersj View Post
    On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 23:26:02 +0000, Panaman wrote:

    > Why does the general Linux community not seem to care about the Linux
    > Standard Base (LSB )and any sort of standards? We need more
    > compatibility across the distributions and to stop the rampant
    > fracturing within the community. With Microsoft closing in on the Linux
    > community, we need to unite as a community, instead of further fracture
    > and become weaker for it.


    What makes you think that the Linux community doesn't care about "any
    sort of standards"?

    There are plenty of parts of Linux that not only conform to, but drive
    standards.

    Jim
    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

    From what i have seen, package management is something that needs a cross distro standard. the VLC homepage has 10 seperate download links for Linux. where as it has 3 for windows where 2 of those are builds for windows phone and store. So 1 download for desktop Windows, 10 for Linux. I just think its absurd that to cover most distros you need 10 separate links.

    I dont mean any disrespect, i just want to learn and have an open conversation about it.

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    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the LinuxCommunity

    On Mon, 09 Oct 2017 04:16:01 +0000, Panaman wrote:

    > From what i have seen, package management is something that needs a
    > cross distro standard. the VLC homepage has 10 seperate download links
    > for Linux. where as it has 3 for windows where 2 of those are builds for
    > windows phone and store. So 1 download for desktop Windows, 10 for
    > Linux. I just think its absurd that to cover most distros you need 10
    > separate links.


    Open source, by definition, means the source can be built with a number
    of options - choice is a big part of why open source works at all.

    It also means that if a distribution does something that someone doesn't
    like, they have the option to do their own thing. That's what's meant by
    "free" software - sometimes called "libre" (to distinguish from "gratis").

    > I dont mean any disrespect, i just want to learn and have an open
    > conversation about it.


    That's fine, but I would suggest approaching it from a standpoint of "I
    want to learn more" rather than "I have the answers for what's wrong with
    the Linux community". I know you probably didn't mean it to come across
    that way, but it is possible to learn without saying "just stop the
    rampant fracturing in the community" - ie, proposing a solution to a
    "problem" that actually is one of the core strengths of the community.

    Jim



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    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the LinuxCommunity

    Quote Originally Posted by hendersj View Post
    On Mon, 09 Oct 2017 04:16:01 +0000, Panaman wrote:

    > From what i have seen, package management is something that needs a
    > cross distro standard. the VLC homepage has 10 seperate download links
    > for Linux. where as it has 3 for windows where 2 of those are builds for
    > windows phone and store. So 1 download for desktop Windows, 10 for
    > Linux. I just think its absurd that to cover most distros you need 10
    > separate links.


    Open source, by definition, means the source can be built with a number
    of options - choice is a big part of why open source works at all.

    It also means that if a distribution does something that someone doesn't
    like, they have the option to do their own thing. That's what's meant by
    "free" software - sometimes called "libre" (to distinguish from "gratis").

    > I dont mean any disrespect, i just want to learn and have an open
    > conversation about it.


    That's fine, but I would suggest approaching it from a standpoint of "I
    want to learn more" rather than "I have the answers for what's wrong with
    the Linux community". I know you probably didn't mean it to come across
    that way, but it is possible to learn without saying "just stop the
    rampant fracturing in the community" - ie, proposing a solution to a
    "problem" that actually is one of the core strengths of the community.

    Jim



    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

    I agree with what you have said. I am sorry for coming off the way i did. I get passionate and i dont always come across the way i should. I mean to say that in my personal opinion, open source and the freedom to choose and do it your way is awesome and i highly respect it and think it has more power than people realize, and that power could be directed by the community at large to make Linux a more friendly place for your average person looking to get away from windows.


    Again, i didnt mean any disrespect. I apologize for my tone and ill advised "I know it all" attitude. Thank you for not yelling at me.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    On Mon, 09 Oct 2017 04:06:01 +0000, Panaman wrote:

    > I would disagree with the fact that standards are "diametrically opposed
    > to innovation". I would say they promote innovation by giving developers
    > confidence that what they build will be available to the entire Linux
    > community with only having to maintain one version of there app or
    > program. And i realize that requiring RPM package management is hard,
    > but the fact that there is a split in package managers and formats
    > doesnt help anyone. And if requiring RPM package management isnt the
    > answer, shouldnt the Linux comunity come together to agree on a package
    > management or create a new one to uphold to? It wouldnt be easy, but i
    > think being more unified would attract a lot more users to the community
    > of Linux as a whole on the desktop and server side.
    >
    > I dont mean to sound like an ass. Just trying to have a good
    > conversation/debate


    Your arguments ignore the mechanism by which Linux is supported. Each
    distribution is supported primarily by volunteer developers, each one
    evolving over time to meet distro-specific goals. Without enforcing
    unrealistic release schedules, how would you propose to achieve the
    synchronization among the disparate support communities??

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    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    IMNSHO I think we already have tools that provide what you suggest. Just take a look at where most source projects are: github. Packaging is a matter of distro choice. In the end the packagers pull the sources to compile from one and the same place.

    What you're suggesting is in fact going back to one single linux distro, and that is not going to happen. Rather consider the Windu way as just dealing with the core ( kernel ). Not going to do that but there are quite some programs ( packages ) for Windows that do have versions for each Windows version.
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    Default Re: Linux Standard Base Adoption/ Development in the Linux Community

    Quote Originally Posted by Panaman View Post
    I would disagree with the fact that standards are "diametrically opposed to innovation". I would say they promote innovation by giving developers confidence that what they build will be available to the entire Linux community with only having to maintain one version of there app or program. And i realize that requiring RPM package management is hard, but the fact that there is a split in package managers and formats doesnt help anyone. And if requiring RPM package management isnt the answer, shouldnt the Linux comunity come together to agree on a package management or create a new one to uphold to? It wouldnt be easy, but i think being more unified would attract a lot more users to the community of Linux as a whole on the desktop and server side.

    I dont mean to sound like an ass. Just trying to have a good conversation/debate
    Standards impose a specific way of doing things to enforce conformity.
    And, in your argument, the innovations may not exist in the first place for adoption by many.
    Specifically regarding APT vs RPM package management, good luck... As described in the article the aptitude people tried but in the end gave up trying to satisfy your "higher solution" approach.

    To understand "Big Idea" issues like this, perhaps it's best to leave our heads in the clouds and talk about specific down to earth examples...

    DirectX vs OpenGL - Although OpenGL has been around for quite awhile longer, it hasn't been able to measure up to what DirectX delivers which is a major reason why XBox easily overtook other gaming consoles as the leader. Surely you shouldn't then say that all our gaming machines should run on Windows only (because DirectX won't run on any other OS).

    HTML5 - On the one hand this "latest" web technology standard now dominates how web content is created. On the other hand, unlike earlier HTML standards, it has never been ratified so is not an official standard, so it would never come to exist without the rebels who were willing to be non-conformists. But, turn this a bit further and now that all web browsers support some collection of HTML5 features (yes, they're all different), end Users like you and me are at the mercy of what can be done in HTML5 including interrogating your machine for Personal Information about you, your machine's features and some apps running on your machine. Today we have a de facto HTML5 world, but entirely built on zero ratified standards... But, when was the last time you went to a website that wouldn't work?

    SOAP vs REST - This is a bit more technical only Developers who build distributed apps and web developers who build "responsive" apps will know about... First there was the ratified SOAP standard for data connections and transfer across WAN links... But, it was also known to be extremely heavy and complex to implement, not consistent with the lightweight philosophy of technologies like AJAX. Almost as soon as SOAP was ratified, a new technology called REST appeared which was lightweight, simple and could be made as (or nearly so) secure as SOAP. There was a big fight between the "standards compliant" people and the rebel "I'll do what I want" and today practically everyone does REST.

    These examples are only three that illustrate different consequences of standards conformity vs innovation.
    You have to break restrictive conformity to create innovations that improve, yet as I also describe the chaos of unfettered innovation needs acceptance and adoption which can lead to standards, ratified or not. These two diametrically opposed principles must simultaneously exist although in each's purest form the other cannot.

    HTH,
    TSU
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