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Thread: Bye bye Leap

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    On Tue, 08 Aug 2017 21:56:02 +0000, xorbe wrote:

    > As easy as they (all distros in general) have made Linux to install and
    > run, sometimes it still takes a guru to get it installed, or find a
    > corner case run-time root cause.


    Well stated - and not just Linux - the average user installing Windows
    from scratch often would have similar issues.

    I don't like drawing comparisons between Linux and Windows (for a number
    of reasons), but this is something that most people don't think about at
    all - the system came (generally) with Windows pre-installed, and the
    user didn't have to do anything to start using it beyond turn it on and
    create an account.

    Jim
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by ominus View Post
    Can't believe Joanna Rutkowska (creator of Qubes OS) didn't make your list
    I also can not believe that I've never heard of Joanna Rutkowska. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Rutkowska>

    I absolutely support her views of the way the people managing industry, world-wide, handle 50% of the planet earth's population, despite various programs, events and initiatives . . .

  3. #23

    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    On 2017-08-08, Jim Henderson <hendersj@no-mx.forums.microfocus.com> wrote:
    > I think it's fair to say that GooeyGirl is familiar with standard English
    > language usage (I recall that she's a native speaker/writer) - so let's
    > just leave this here as a lesson learned for everyone.


    Topical.

    I believe standard practice in English is adopt one of three strategies:

    1) Pronoun alternatives e.g. he/she spoke to him/her.
    2) Avoid pronouns e.g. the person spoke the other person.
    3) Footnote e.g. he* did something to him* (footnote: *no specific gender intended).

    Personally I believe all these constructions are bit clumsy. I rather like the French approach of using the ("On dit"
    - "one speaks") but sadly this is considered archaic in English. Unfortunately other than that, the English language is
    deficient in this respect. While in English however there are these get-arounds, I wonder how people cope in languages
    where not only personal pronouns declensions are affected by gender e.g.

    1. What about adjective declensions affected by gender (e.g. bon/bonne, gut/guter)?
    2. How about verb conjugations affected by gender (I don't think common in European languages)?

    I know many scientific GNU/Linux users who are female. They don't really have particularly strong feelings on the choice
    of personal pronoun but are much more concerned about the underlying mentality of person writing/speaking. I don't think
    for a moment that Tsu is likely to harbour gender-associated prejudices. However I strongly agree with the need to be on
    guard against propagating arbitrary stereotypes, but do so with good humour, practical common sense, and well-meaning
    respect.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    I also absolutely, unreservedly do not suspect any malice whatsoever by Tsu, & sincerely apologise if my clumsy wordage implied otherwise. My purpose in my post was not to critique the writer, but to critique the mainstream practice in English grammar of defaulting to the male gender. Throughout my primary, secondary & tertiary schooling [~200 years ago ;-) ] that was the prevailing paradigm. However in our contemporary times there is a much greater awareness of gender equality, if not necessarily also universal respect for it. As a feminist who happens to enjoy geeky things, which domain today still tends to be dominated by males, i simply play a tiny role niggling away in various areas reminding people that woman are here too, & many of us feel alienated by ongoing perpetuation of male gendered technical writing. I now offer a further apology for hijacking this thread, & will say no more on it... here

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by GooeyGirl View Post
    My purpose in my post was not to critique the writer, but to critique the mainstream practice in English grammar of defaulting to the male gender. Throughout my primary, secondary & tertiary schooling [~200 years ago ;-) ] that was the prevailing paradigm. However in our contemporary times there is a much greater awareness of gender equality, if not necessarily also universal respect for it.
    IMHO, the current European English language business practice, especially when the documents will be read by US American colleagues, is to use third person neutral gender grammar.

    Yes, I also suffer from an Antipodean influence on the "very British" grammar; take a look at my profile to work out when!
    Therefore, IMHO, it is possible to learn to "be neutral" given, enough pressure by your employer . . . But, having said that, people who have been educated primarily with another European language, do occasionally have issues with the "male; female; neutral" association to non-human things; in other words, the German "der; die; das" and the French "qui; que; ce; ça". Therefore, it may be that someone translating into English from their thoughts in their mother tongue will occasionally use "he" or "she" when they mean "it".

    In other words, "Only the robots are perfect -- human beings produce errors . . . "

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by GooeyGirl View Post
    many of us feel alienated by ongoing perpetuation of male gendered technical writing.
    I work in the medical field where (without any exaggeration) around 95% of nurses are women - unsurprisingly no one cared that most of the material that was in English had she as the default gender and most of the books had pictures of women doing everything. It didn't make me feel "alienated" or out of place - it was simply a depiction of the status quo that exists in my field of work.

    I don't really see why this is an issue for anyone in the first place, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is conveying the information.
    .: miuku #suse @ irc.freenode.net
    :: miuku@opensuse.org

    .: h​ttps://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/Miuku/

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:36:01 +0000, Miuku wrote:

    > GooeyGirl;2833424 Wrote:
    >> many of us feel alienated by ongoing perpetuation of male gendered
    >> technical writing.

    > I work in the medical field where (without any exaggeration) around 95%
    > of nurses are women - unsurprisingly no one cared that most of the
    > material that was in English had she as the default gender and most of
    > the books had pictures of women doing everything. It didn't make me feel
    > "alienated" or out of place - it was simply a depiction of the status
    > quo that exists in my field of work.
    >
    > I don't really see why this is an issue for anyone in the first place,
    > at the end of the day the only thing that matters is conveying the
    > information.


    There's a lot that could be said, but again, I'm going to point out that
    this is not the place for that discussion, and ask that we let it go
    here.

    Jim



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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    Completely appreciated.

    Jim



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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Bye bye Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    The definition of what is stable in Linux has changed radically over the last 10 years, and by necessity because of the massive wave of recent changes.
    For the person who just wants something that works and doesn't want to invest effort into new things has to determine for himself what changes he can tolerate.
    The definition of stable has changed has it? You should probably tell the other big distro maintainers. And I never complained about new things, just broken things. Must these be 'tolerated'? In a distro that describes itself as having 'a level of stability unmatched by other Linux distributions'?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    If CentOS is all he can deal with, then so be it... Recognize that and stick to what makes you happy but be aware <no other distro> goes to that extreme.
    This claim just doesn't wash I'm afraid. Non-LTS *buntu releases, Fedora? Arch? Slackware -current? All these distros have run on this hardware with *none* of the issues I had with Leap, and none of them make the same extraordinary claims to stability that Leap does.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    But, if you're installing on newer (and better) hardware or chasing better performance or efficiency... And particularly if you're installing on Consumer grade hardware which will incorporate new technology faster than Server hardware...
    I made a particular point of noting that I am using fairly old and very vanilla hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsu2 View Post
    It's hard to say what your (@OP) issues might be but I'd like to think that if you were to expend the effort to fix those issues the result would have a major long term beneficial Experience.
    I think I stated pretty clearly what the issues were. But the whole point which you seem to be missing is that I don't currently want to spend time and effort fixing these things. In the past I have expended huge amounts of time installing or building and then debugging countless Linux OSes and yes the learning process was very beneficial. That doesn't mean however that I want to expend that kind of effort every time I install an OS. It's perfectly reasonable to install something described as the 'best stable Linux experience available' in the expectation of avoiding it.

    It seems like a few people here are far too quick to blame the user for failures in the OS and that is not healthy for a distro community in my opinion.

  10. #30
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    Exclamation Re: Bye bye Leap

    Quote Originally Posted by spoovy View Post
    The definition of stable has changed has it? You should probably tell the other big distro maintainers. And I never complained about new things, just broken things. Must these be 'tolerated'? In a distro that describes itself as having 'a level of stability unmatched by other Linux distributions'?
    If I understand you correctly, we need to have a quiet word with the SUSE and openSUSE marketing folks with respect to the issues you're raising here.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoovy View Post
    This claim just doesn't wash I'm afraid. Non-LTS *buntu releases, Fedora? Arch? Slackware -current? All these distros have run on this hardware with *none* of the issues I had with Leap, and none of them make the same extraordinary claims to stability that Leap does.
    Possibly also a marketing issue and definitely a hardware compatibility issue.

    Please be aware that, the SUSE and therefore openSUSE as well, steers well away from any Linux package which has licensing and/or patent issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoovy View Post
    I made a particular point of noting that I am using fairly old and very vanilla hardware.
    Yes, but, are drivers needed which have, from the openSUSE licensing view, licensing and/or patent issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by spoovy View Post
    I think I stated pretty clearly what the issues were. But the whole point which you seem to be missing is that I don't currently want to spend time and effort fixing these things. In the past I have expended huge amounts of time installing or building and then debugging countless Linux OSes and yes the learning process was very beneficial. That doesn't mean however that I want to expend that kind of effort every time I install an OS. It's perfectly reasonable to install something described as the 'best stable Linux experience available' in the expectation of avoiding it.
    Possibly, the openSUSE hardware compatibility list needs some urgent attention to help alleviate the issues being raised here.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoovy View Post
    It seems like a few people here are far too quick to blame the user for failures in the OS and that is not healthy for a distro community in my opinion.
    Yes and no -- IMHO it seems to depend on how the issues to be discussed are raised in this forum.

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