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Thread: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

  1. #1

    Question Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Is it possible to force the use of Package Updater on Tumbleweed, rather than using Gnome Software?

    I use Package Updater on Leap, and I prefer it because it has an "Update" button, rather than an "Update and Reboot"*, and feels a bit more light-weight. I can run Package Updater manually under Tumbleweed, but the "You have new updates" notification always opens Gnome Software's update view.

    * because generally I don't need to reboot, and Package Updater usually warns me when I do

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Don't even try. TW gets released over and over again ( sometimes 5 per week ) and needs zypper dup. The packagekit applet only knows zypper ref and zypper up.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    I've been using Package Updater manually (often running it when I see the notification) without any apparent problems for at least six months, and it has managed the big updates like the GCC changes. If it is really that dangerous in TW, should it not be removed?

    Also, does the "zypper dup" mean that the Gnome Software reboot is necessary, or is it just that Software does the Windows-like "reboot to be safe"? If it's the latter, is there another tool that could behave more like Package Updater and update without forcing a reboot, but prompting me when one is needed?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by IBBoard; 11-Jul-2017 at 12:08. Reason: Add timeframe

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    If a reboot is needed, has nothing to do with the tools used to update/replace packages. It depends on which packages are changed.

    E.g., a new kernel would trigger me to reboot asap (but I of course only do a kernel update when it fits in the workflow of the system, when not I postpone to a better opportunity).

    Changed packages that are at the base of the DE in use at that moment, might trigger you to log out and log in again.

    Changed products that are seldom used (and certainly not at the moment of updating) do not require ant further action.

    So it is up to you to take intelligent and careful decisions.

    And yes, like said above, the recommended way to update a TW system (mentioned in many threads here) is:
    Code:
    zypper dup --no-allow-vendor-change
    Henk van Velden

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    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcvv View Post
    And yes, like said above, the recommended way to update a TW system (mentioned in many threads here) is:
    Code:
    zypper dup --no-allow-vendor-change
    Since this week that's the default setting for TW, so now
    Code:
    zypper dup
    is enough. IIRC in July 9th build.
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    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knurpht View Post
    Since this week that's the default setting for TW, so now
    Code:
    zypper dup
    is enough. IIRC in July 9th build.
    That being the case, I assume that it only works after updating to at least that version and that until that is done the --no-allow-vendor-change is still needed. I also assume that many do not update on an hourly, daily, or even weekly base and that thus the recommendation to use it is still valid until at least a month from July 9th. The more because setting something that is already set by default does not harm.
    Henk van Velden

  7. #7

    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    I understand that the update app doesn't affect whether a reboot is required or not, but it seems that Package Updater can update libraries without requiring a system restart, while the few times I've (accidentally) clicked the notification and had Gnome Software offer updates then it always seemed to give a "Restart and Update" button, as if there was no option to update without restarting.

    Is there any technical reason why Package Updater couldn't do the right thing on Tumbleweed? I tend to update whenever I get notifications (and I check most Mondays to see what got updated over the weekend - after all, that's why I'm on a rolling release!) and having to restart is unnecessarily intrusive in my workflow, while using the command-line seems unnecessarily manual when Gnome has a GUI notification. It would also seem more helpful for apps to do the right thing by default, rather than requiring users to read the forums to find out that they need to do a non-standard update method (at least for those used to their GUI handling it for them).

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBBoard View Post
    I understand that the update app doesn't affect whether a reboot is required or not, but it seems that Package Updater can update libraries without requiring a system restart, while the few times I've (accidentally) clicked the notification and had Gnome Software offer updates then it always seemed to give a "Restart and Update" button, as if there was no option to update without restarting.

    Is there any technical reason why Package Updater couldn't do the right thing on Tumbleweed? I tend to update whenever I get notifications (and I check most Mondays to see what got updated over the weekend - after all, that's why I'm on a rolling release!) and having to restart is unnecessarily intrusive in my workflow, while using the command-line seems unnecessarily manual when Gnome has a GUI notification. It would also seem more helpful for apps to do the right thing by default, rather than requiring users to read the forums to find out that they need to do a non-standard update method (at least for those used to their GUI handling it for them).

    Thanks.
    The updater is an upstream applet, packagekit based. It's agnostic of the distro. openSUSE uses zypper. TW is released over and over again, on each update. Packagekit knows nothing about such techniques. I'm not making up instructions, they come straight from the TW release manager's posts in the factory ML. My bet is that you're seeing a lot of 'red' packages when you have a look at your installed packages, meaning the installed package versions are no longer in the repos.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBBoard View Post
    I understand that the update app doesn't affect whether a reboot is required or not, but it seems that Package Updater can update libraries without requiring a system restart, while the few times I've (accidentally) clicked the notification and had Gnome Software offer updates then it always seemed to give a "Restart and Update" button, as if there was no option to update without restarting.
    Yes, GNOME Software does a so-called "offline update" by default, i.e. it only downloads the updates, they are getting installed during the next boot.

    It's safer this way. Weird things can happen if you replace the whole system underneath your running applications and desktop.
    (and in particular, GNOME crashes/crashed on every Xorg update IIRC)
    So the GNOME developers/maintainers decided to prefer that.

    zypper does install the packages immediately though (like that update app you mention apparently does).

    And actually I think this is configurable for GNOME Software too somewhere, but I'm not sure.
    GNOME Software is also "just" a frontend to PackageKit, btw.

    Is there any technical reason why Package Updater couldn't do the right thing on Tumbleweed?
    Not really, just that noone implemented it yet.
    It is work in progress though.

    Additional explanations: PackageKit is distribution agnostic as already mentioned. It offers standard actions like "check for updates" or "install this update(s)" but they are actually implemented by plugins/backends.

    openSUSE's zypp backend currently does the equivalent of "zypper up", which should work fine most of the time, but cannot handle all situations in the always changing Tumbleweed, as it is designed to install updates on a fixed release like Leap.

    In particular, it does no downgrades which can happen in Tumbleweed. E.g. a few months ago the versioning scheme of xorg-x11-server has been changed from 7.6_1.18.3 to 1.19.0 without the 7.6_ and a "zypper up" won't install that as it is a *lower* number.
    Last edited by wolfi323; 17-Jul-2017 at 23:55.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Force Package Updater for updates in TW?

    Thanks for providing that detail.

    I've generally not had many problems with updating things under the system, but now that you mention it then I may have had some crashes and bad behaviour when major components of Gnome or XOrg updated.

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