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Thread: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

  1. #1

    Default What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    Hello guys, I've recently came across different points of view concerning IDEs: there are people who find that they are bad or at least unnecessary, and there are people who find that they are good or even indispensable. The only two arguments I found favorable to IDEs say that IDEs help people code faster and, in some cases, they are indispensable tools because you can't properly program without it in some languages, like Java. But then I found some people arguing that if a language needs an IDE to be used this is a sign that this language is a bad programming language in the first place. According to these people, a good programming language shouldn't require an IDE to be used efficiently. People complain that IDEs are bloatwares, resource consuming, and they get worse in every release. When working with projects, IDEs tend to add a bunch of useless information, hidden files and metadata. IDEs has their own work flow and particular ways of doing things, there is no space for creativity and over time you become passively tied to what these softwares offer you. I found a lot of people saying that they prefer to stick with lightweight and versatile text editors, like VIM, EMACS, Sublime etc, and the basic tool chain, so they know exactly what they are doing, they have more control over what's happening and there is more flexibility the way things can be done. VIM and EMACS are not considered IDEs in a pejorative way, although they can have IDE features, because they don't have the bad qualities of monolithic bloatwares like Eclipse and Visual Studio, and they don't force you to develop bad habits, hence they are primarily considered lightweight text editors. Here are some articles I've been reading recently:


    http://java.dzone.com/articles/ide-b...mming-language
    http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/...ix-philosophy/
    http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/


    What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of IDEs?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    Quote Originally Posted by renatov View Post
    What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of IDEs?
    I avoid IDEs.

    A problem that programmers can run into is that whenever they read the code, they read what they intended to put there rather than what is actually there. IMO, the use of an IDE makes it even easier to deceive yourself in that way. I prefer to see the raw text.
    openSUSE Leap 15.4 Beta; KDE Plasma 5.24.4;
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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    On Fri 21 Feb 2014 02:56:01 PM CST, nrickert wrote:


    renatov;2626259 Wrote:
    > What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of
    > IDEs?


    I avoid IDEs.

    A problem that programmers can run into is that whenever they read the
    code, they read what they intended to put there rather than what is
    actually there. IMO, the use of an IDE makes it even easier to deceive
    yourself in that way. I prefer to see the raw text.


    Hi
    I use medit most of the time, had a play with anjuta for awhile. There
    is also scite which I use which has more features.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    On 2014-02-21, renatov <renatov@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
    > What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of IDEs?


    My belief is: use what works. Life's too short. I think IDEs are bad for newcomers to programming because they usually
    impede understanding by hiding important details (e.g. concerning linking), they lock-in programmers to particular
    packages, and can make it difficult to switch environments if you ever wanted to.

    On the other hand emacs and Vim are poor choices for text editors to newcomers. There's no point multiplying learning
    curves when the focus should be on learning to program. I encourage newcomers to use kate (in KDE) or gedit (in GNOME).
    If they want to switch to something else afterwards, then that's fine.

    Personally I use only Vim and loathe IDEs. I can understand why an advanced or professional programmer might want to use
    an IDE, especially when collaborating with other programmers on a common project. But I also believe that such a
    programmer should have the ability to code comfortably outside an IDE should the need ever arise.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    I only occasionally dabble in programming, mainly Qt4 and sometimes FreePascal for console programs, and I always use the Kate text editor. Way back in time I tried KDevelop, but it took too long to figure it out, it was just easier to use Kate. For me with my limited programming skills, IDEs just made things more difficult.
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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    On 2014-02-21 17:05, flymail wrote:
    > On 2014-02-21, renatov <renatov@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
    >> What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of IDEs?

    >
    > My belief is: use what works. Life's too short.


    I agree :-)

    > I think IDEs are bad for newcomers to programming because they usually
    > impede understanding by hiding important details (e.g. concerning linking), they lock-in programmers to particular
    > packages, and can make it difficult to switch environments if you ever wanted to.


    You have a point there.

    > On the other hand emacs and Vim are poor choices for text editors to newcomers. There's no point multiplying learning
    > curves when the focus should be on learning to program. I encourage newcomers to use kate (in KDE) or gedit (in GNOME).
    > If they want to switch to something else afterwards, then that's fine.


    You also have a point there :-)

    > Personally I use only Vim and loathe IDEs. I can understand why an advanced or professional programmer might want to use
    > an IDE, especially when collaborating with other programmers on a common project. But I also believe that such a
    > programmer should have the ability to code comfortably outside an IDE should the need ever arise.


    I have used both methods. I started using IDEs with Borland Pascal and
    Borland C, and I found those very comfortable. I like features like
    launching the build, get errors, and the editor goes to the exact line
    and word where the mistake is. It wastes less time.

    I also like integrated debuggers on the IDE. you can single step code,
    insert break points, go to a certain line, inspect variables... It makes
    life easier.

    I also like the integrated help, help on the language features, help on
    library functions.

    Computers should help people... even programmers.

    When I switched to Linux I missed those things. I programmed less.

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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    renatov wrote:
    >
    > Hello guys, I've recently came across different points of view
    > concerning IDEs: there are people who find that they are bad or at least
    > unnecessary, and there are people who find that they are good or even
    > indispensable. The only two arguments I found favorable to IDEs say that
    > IDEs help people code faster and, in some cases, they are indispensable
    > tools because you can't properly program without it in some languages,
    > like Java. But then I found some people arguing that if a language needs
    > an IDE to be used this is a sign that this language is a bad programming
    > language in the first place. According to these people, a good
    > programming language shouldn't require an IDE to be used efficiently.
    > People complain that IDEs are bloatwares, resource consuming, and they
    > get worse in every release. When working with projects, IDEs tend to add
    > a bunch of useless information, hidden files and metadata. IDEs has
    > their own work flow and particular ways of doing things, there is no
    > space for creativity and over time you become passively tied to what
    > these softwares offer you. I found a lot of people saying that they
    > prefer to stick with lightweight and versatile text editors, like VIM,
    > EMACS, Sublime etc, and the basic tool chain, so they know exactly what
    > they are doing, they have more control over what's happening and there
    > is more flexibility the way things can be done. VIM and EMACS are not
    > considered IDEs in a pejorative way, although they can have IDE
    > features, because they don't have the bad qualities of monolithic
    > bloatwares like Eclipse and Visual Studio, and they don't force you to
    > develop bad habits, hence they are primarily considered lightweight text
    > editors. Here are some articles I've been reading recently:
    >
    >
    > http://java.dzone.com/articles/ide-b...mming-language
    > http://tinyurl.com/bgkufov
    > http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/
    >
    >
    > What's your opinion about that? What do you thing about the use of IDEs?
    >
    >

    You can learn to code using "basic" editors but if you want to develop
    huge applications it can become quite frustrating with simple editors if
    you want to:-

    ==>Compile and run/execute code on the fly.
    ==>Formatting code
    ==>Lookup code using references.(in eclipse you can find references to a
    piece of code by simply right clicking )
    ==>Search through entire project for a piece of information
    ==>Auto-completion of code.
    ==>Managing API jars etc in case of Java/j2ee. A typical project has 3
    or more API libraries in addition to JRE libraries. Putting them in
    classpath is a pain.
    ==>Debugging code
    ==>Using Profiling mode inorder to check for memory leaks. etc etc..

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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    Some languages lend more towards IDEs while others are just fine being done in a text editor.

    At work I use Visual Studio when I'm working with an ASP.NET Intranet site. It is just a lot easier for debugging, compiling and publishing and the features like color syntax, intellisense and code completion helps tremendously since it could be months between times I am working on a project with the website. I avoid using the GUI and drag-and-drop controls, preferring to hand-code the pages myself for most cases.

    Meanwhile, at home I have a couple of PHP-based websites (web apps?) and juggle between Windows and Linux in development.

    In Linux, I haven't found or gotten used to an IDE that I like, yet. One problem I find with various IDEs is that they either do stuff for you (injecting code or provide a visual means to hide the actual coding parts) or add additional files (such as solution files) and ultimately any IDE is going to take time to find out how it works and what it is capable of doing.

    Surprisingly one IDE that I have found most comfortable in PHP development has been WebMatrix (3+), which is only available for Windows. It makes it easy to open an existing site (locally or remotely), store your website anywhere (handily in a synchronized folder with Dropbox or SkyDrive for instance), easily sets up everything with IIS so running/debugging the site is a snap, and provide publishing. Unfortunately it does add a few extra components (web.config file for database connection strings) that I have to work around (rewrite the code in, remove it from the site, etc.)

    Ideally, I would prefer a solution that is cross-platform so I can use the same application in all of my systems at home consistently. The best I have been able to do in that sense is using ShiftEdit or src:kit sites/Chrome extensions so that I have it available in any of my Chrome/Chromium browsers regardless (including my Chromebook).

    As for IDE vs editor, depends on the language and developer's skill. For compiling and more complicated languages (like .NET), I prefer an IDE to help me along. For scripting language, such as PHP, a text editor with some features is very nice.
    "Linux provides freedom, problem is most users don't know what it is or how to use it." ~me
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    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

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  10. #10

    Default Re: What's your opinion about IDEs vs text editors?

    On 2014-02-22, vazhavandan <vazhavandan@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
    > You can learn to code using "basic" editors but if you want to develop
    > huge applications it can become quite frustrating with simple editors if
    > you want to:-
    >
    >==>Compile and run/execute code on the fly.
    >==>Formatting code
    >==>Lookup code using references.(in eclipse you can find references to a
    > piece of code by simply right clicking )
    >==>Search through entire project for a piece of information
    >==>Auto-completion of code.
    >==>Managing API jars etc in case of Java/j2ee. A typical project has 3
    > or more API libraries in addition to JRE libraries. Putting them in
    > classpath is a pain.
    >==>Debugging code
    >==>Using Profiling mode inorder to check for memory leaks. etc etc..


    I don't know what you mean by `lookup code using references', `piece of information', or `API jars', but the other
    things are mention are not only trivial but actually easier with Vim using the appropriate plugins and .vimrc
    customisations.


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