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Thread: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

  1. #1

    Default Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    I am using Tumbleweed without problems. Thank you for that. However, I have ended up using it in a not recommended and unsupported way.
    I am confused due to the following: When there is a package available both in Tumbleweed repo and in current repo, zypper often prefers the package in the current repo because it has a higher release number though the package in Tumbleweed repo has a later build date.


    I picked below as an example the package kdebase-runtime-branding.
    In current there are packages for KDE 4.11 while in Tumbleweed there are KDE 4.12 packages. Now zypper dup prefers the branding package from current repo which is probably tailored for KDE 4.11 and thus may even prevent installing some KDE 4.12 packages.

    The difference in build dates may be months. My intuition (based on no understanding on how Linux distributions are maintained) tells me to prefer the packages built lately for the latest Tumbleweed versions of kernel, kde and other software.

    I ended up setting Tumbleweed priority to 95 while current repos have priority 99. I also have packman repos, libreoffice and some others and the few applications I use work ok. However, there is the risk that an important update is made in the current_updates but not in Tumbleweed repo. And I guess there are other risks.

    My question is: What I do not understand about release numbers and build dates ?-)

    (I have read the postings from last few years about Tumbleweed and repository priorities without finding an answer.)

    Code:
    kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE - The KDE Runtime Components
    Alternate Version Installed Version
    Version: 13.1-6.9.11 13.1-2.5
    Build Time: pe 24. tammikuuta 2014 21.05.42 ti 18. helmikuuta 2014 17.37.30
    Install Time: ke 19. helmikuuta 2014 08.59.18
    Package Group: System/GUI/KDE System/GUI/KDE
    License: GPL-2.0+ GPL-2.0+
    Installed Size: 839,6 KiB 839,6 KiB
    Download Size: 740,6 KiB 0 B
    Distribution: openSUSE:Tumbleweed
    Vendor: openSUSE obs://build.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tumbleweed
    Packager: http://bugs.opensuse.org
    Architecture: x86_64 x86_64
    Build Host:
    URL: http://www.opensuse.org/ http://www.opensuse.org/
    Source Package: kdebase4-openSUSE-13.1-6.9.11 kdebase4-openSUSE-13.1-2.5
    Media No.: 0 0
    Authors:

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    You should not compare the minor release numbers (coming after the "-") across repos. They are repo-specific. So for example, a package with a new release number going into a repo for the first time could acquire a lower minor release number compared to the same package in another repo.
    Leap 42.3 (ext4, KDE Plasma 5.8.7) ~ stable
    Manjaro (ext4, Xfce) ~ rolling updates
    Tumbleweed (ext4, KDE Plasma5) ~ managed updates via "Tumbleweed Snapshots" service.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Ref your example, I also have the 13.1-2.5 package installed via zypper dup, as it is the newer build (at 18 Feb, versus 24 Jan for 13.1-6.9.11) even though it has the lower minor number.

    My "current" repos and Tumbleweed repo are at the same default priorities, as recommended.
    Leap 42.3 (ext4, KDE Plasma 5.8.7) ~ stable
    Manjaro (ext4, Xfce) ~ rolling updates
    Tumbleweed (ext4, KDE Plasma5) ~ managed updates via "Tumbleweed Snapshots" service.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Ref your example, I also have the 13.1-2.5 package installed via zypper dup, as it is the newer build (at 18 Feb, versus 24 Jan for 13.1-6.9.11) even though it has the lower minor number.
    Well, as you consused wrote, the minor number (and the date of course) is repo-specific.

    And there has been absolutely _no_ change in kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE since Oct. 4th (except for some packaging/versioning things).

    Just download the tarball from https://build.opensuse.org/package/s...base4-openSUSE (Tumbleweed) and https://build.opensuse.org/package/s...base4-openSUSE (openSUSE:13.1:Update) and compare, if you want to verify that yourself.

    So it doesn't really matter which version you install.
    Just take the one "zypper dup" offers you...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    You should not compare the minor release numbers (coming after the "-") across repos. They are repo-specific. So for example, a package with a new release number going into a repo for the first time could acquire a lower minor release number compared to the same package in another repo.
    I also have understood that the minor release numbers are repo specific and should be ignored. However, I have got the impression that zypper dup relies on them rather than build dates. A continuation question is, do the build dates mean anything?For example, if I have two packages with same version number (major release number), the other build in September for openSUSE 13.1 and the other build yesterday for Tumbleweed does it matter, which one gets installed?I ask, because if I set all the repositories to equal priority, zypper dup ignores most of the packages from the Tumbleweed repo. I guess I do not properly understand what "building against" means.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfi323 View Post
    Well, as you consused wrote, the minor number (and the date of course) is repo-specific.

    And there has been absolutely _no_ change in kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE since Oct. 4th (except for some packaging/versioning things).

    Just download the tarball from https://build.opensuse.org/package/s...base4-openSUSE (Tumbleweed) and https://build.opensuse.org/package/s...base4-openSUSE (openSUSE:13.1:Update) and compare, if you want to verify that yourself.

    So it doesn't really matter which version you install.
    Just take the one "zypper dup" offers you...

    I also have the understanding, that as long as the version numbers (major release number before the "-") are equal, the source code is equal. However, it seems that the requirements for the packages may be different which may affect, what zypper dup does.

    I guess I have to do more homework on how Linux distributions are build. Suggestions for good reading?

    Code:
    kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE - The KDE Runtime Components
    Alternate Version Installed Version
    Version: 13.1-6.9.11 13.1-2.6
    Provides: kdebase4-runtime-branding = 4.11 kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE = 13.1-6.9.11 kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE(x86-64) = 13.1-6.9.11 kdebase4-runtime-branding = 4.12 kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE = 13.1-2.6 kdebase4-runtime-branding-openSUSE(x86-64) = 13.1-2.6
    Prerequires: coreutils grep diffutils fillup coreutils grep diffutils fillup
    Requires: libqt4-x11 >= 4.8.1 kdebase4-runtime >= 4.11 coreutils grep diffutils fillup rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1 rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1 rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) <= 4.4.6-1 libqt4-x11 >= 4.8.1 kdebase4-runtime >= 4.12 coreutils grep diffutils fillup
    Conflicts: namespace:otherproviders(kdebase4-runtime-branding) namespace:otherproviders(kdebase4-runtime-branding)
    Supplements: kdebase4-runtime & branding-openSUSE kdebase4-runtime & branding-openSUSE

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Ref your example, I also have the 13.1-2.5 package installed via zypper dup, as it is the newer build (at 18 Feb, versus 24 Jan for 13.1-6.9.11) even though it has the lower minor number.

    My "current" repos and Tumbleweed repo are at the same default priorities, as recommended.

    If I set the priorities equal, I get the the package with older build date (with higher revision number) Is there something wrong in my zypper configuration?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by hvalisuo View Post
    I also have the understanding, that as long as the version numbers (major release number before the "-") are equal, the source code is equal. However, it seems that the requirements for the packages may be different which may affect, what zypper dup does.
    Yes, zypper doesn't care about the build time. It only respects the version numbers, and if they are equal the build numbers (i.e. the part after the '-').

    Those two packages don't really have different requirements either.
    The only difference is just that one needs "kdebase4-runtime>=4.12" and the other one "kdebase4-runtime>=4.11" (because it is built against KDE 4.11), but that's of course also satisfied by KDE 4.12.

    So don't think too much about that I'd say, just use "zypper dup" and Tumbleweed like it's intended to be used.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by hvalisuo View Post
    If I set the priorities equal, I get the the package with older build date (with higher revision number) Is there something wrong in my zypper configuration?
    Not really "wrong", but I suspect it could be due to some difference in persisted data wrt libzypp's so-called database or zypper's cache. The only evidence for that view is:


    • You changed repo priorities whereas I haven't throughout a 12.3 based Tw --> 13.1 based Tw (zypper dup always since clean 12.3 install).
    • A possible outcome of using "zypper dup --from" (ref @Knurpht in a previous Tw thread) just once, where Apper's behaviour (PackageKit equivalent of "zypper up") is modified wrt notifying or not, a standard kernel update from Oss Update repo. I haven't verified/failed this yet on my own system where I have the issue, when using Apper as a convenient heads up.

    Since neither are recommended by Greg K-H for Tumbleweed, although I would like to understand the reason for the anomalies, I agree with wolfi here
    So don't think too much about that I'd say, just use "zypper dup" and Tumbleweed like it's intended to be used.
    because on the balance of probability it won't be solved for Tumbleweed alone.
    Leap 42.3 (ext4, KDE Plasma 5.8.7) ~ stable
    Manjaro (ext4, Xfce) ~ rolling updates
    Tumbleweed (ext4, KDE Plasma5) ~ managed updates via "Tumbleweed Snapshots" service.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Tumbleweed package release numbers vs. build dates

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Not really "wrong", but I suspect it could be due to some difference in persisted data wrt libzypp's so-called database or zypper's cache.
    ???
    Again, there's absolutely _nothing_ wrong here.
    zypper doesn't care about any build date.
    If the priorities of the repos are equal, it takes the package with the higher version number, if they are equal it takes the one with the higher build number.
    That's how it is designed.

    Since neither are recommended by Greg K-H for Tumbleweed, although I would like to understand the reason for the anomalies,
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see any anomalies at all.

    "zypper dup" installs the packages with the higher version/build number, and those come from Current repo in this case of the KDE branding packages.
    To change this they would have to get a higher version number in Tumbleweed.

    But it doesn't matter for those branding packages, since they are exactly the same anyway, despite the build number (except for that minor difference in the dependencies, which doesn't matter either because 4.12 is greater as 4.11 as well, so there's no problem in installing the 13.1 package in Tumbleweed. It wouldn't work the other way round though, the Tumbleweed package cannot be installed on 13.1 because it needs KDE >= 4.12 whereas 13.1 only has 4.11.5).

    The KDE packages' dependencies have been set in a way that this gives no problems whatsoever. Again, as you can see f.e. kdebase4-workspace-branding-openSUSE from the Current repo requires KDE >= 4.11 (not KDE == 4.11.x), and it is similar with the other branding packages.
    This is even necessary now, because kdebase4-workspace stays at 4.11.x while the rest of KDE is at 4.12.x.
    Last edited by wolfi323; 20-Feb-2014 at 06:09.

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