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Thread: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    On 2014-01-16 20:56, hcvv wrote:
    >
    > You forgot 12.3 as intermediate step.
    >
    > But I do not understand your hesitation to install 13.1 directly (of
    > course keeping all user/application.database data). It is realy not much
    > more then "upgrading" (what ever that means). All software must be
    > installed anew. Everything you installed in 12.1 will have newer
    > versions in 13.1.


    It is very different on servers.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post

    It is very different on servers.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)
    Why?

    Serving what?
    Henk van Velden

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    On 2014-01-16 21:46, hcvv wrote:
    >
    > robin_listas;2616646 Wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> It is very different on servers.


    > Why?


    Because the configuration of servers is not stored under /home, so it is
    no preserved. Neither is the data. You have to install the same package
    list, then you have to know what configuration files to carry over. If
    you are not the original designer of the server, things are more
    complicated.

    With a proper upgrade procedure most of that is migrated automatically.
    There will be problems, of course, but you don't have to redo absolutely
    everything.


    > Serving what?


    Whatever. I don't know what the OP has.
    Maybe ftp, http, nfs, smtp, smb, imap, databases, named...

    The OP said it was a production server, and he is trying to experiment
    upgrade procedures on another machine.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    Then what of what I said earlier and that you quoted is not applicable to a "server"
    > But I do not understand your hesitation to install 13.1 directly (of
    > course keeping all user/application.database data). It is realy not much
    > more then "upgrading" (what ever that means). All software must be
    > installed anew. Everything you installed in 12.1 will have newer
    > versions in 13.1.
    You say that for a ""server" it is different. What of the above is different?
    Going from 12.1 to 13.1 all installed sofware would have new versions. Is that different from a server?
    Keeping user/application/database data during such an installation is IMHO a nessecity for a "server" as well as for "desktop" as for a "laptop", etc. Even if you think that the home part of those data is neglegible for a server in your opinion (which it is mostly not when you do proper management), it still holds true.
    And also IMHO the effort difference between an upgrade method and a new installiation will be the same for a "server" as for another type of system.

    Where is it difference?
    Henk van Velden

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    On 2014-01-16 23:06, hcvv wrote:

    > Where is it difference?


    The difference is that for an upgrade you keep _all_ your system data
    and user data and configuration files intact. Everything. As each
    package is upgraded, if its designer have done it properly, the old
    configuration files can be parsed and migrated. If not, the rpm either
    leaves the old config files in use, or leaves the new ones with the old
    renamed. It is just a question of getting the list of those config files
    (there is a file that lists them all) and apply the needed changes.

    The result is that most services work from the first boot. No need to
    copy files from the backup of the previous install and redo - provided
    you know what files to touch.


    It is less work to do an upgrade.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    So the only difference is configuration files.

    But my assumption is that automatic upgrading configuration files of an application may be done correct when you upgrade one version of an application. But the application version jump in this case will probably be as large as that of openSUSE. And application maintainers do not tend to support all those jumps accumulative.

    I would not take the chance. In any case, as a system manager you would have notes/backups on how you organised the system (I backup /etc on all systems, to be able to consult them after an update/upgrade/new install). You also have to check if any newer version of application/database software has new/depricated functionality to begin with. In that whole process the keeping of old configuration files on the system can even be more of a burden. And it leads to old rubish in the system.

    But you can manage your systems in your way. I only advised the OP based on my experiences.
    Henk van Velden

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    On 2014-01-17 10:26, hcvv wrote:
    >
    > So the only difference is configuration files.


    And that you automatically get the same list of packages, or their
    replacements, when they are system services.

    > But my assumption is that automatic upgrading configuration files of an
    > application may be done correct when you upgrade one version of an
    > application. But the application version jump in this case will probably
    > be as large as that of openSUSE. And application maintainers do not tend
    > to support all those jumps accumulative.


    Some do.

    I have been upgrading my system continuously since 1998, and it works.

    When they don't, you have to compare the old and the new files, and
    choose what to port from the old to the new config. Granted, this is the
    same as for a new installation, with a backup of the old /etc. But, the
    upgrade procedure automatically generates a list of what files you have
    to check.

    My trick is to use "meld", from KDE. It is an editor that opens two
    files side by side, comparing them. With a single click you can copy
    entire paragraphs from one file to the other, in any direction, or erase
    blocks... very nice utility to migrate plain text configs.

    > I would not take the chance. In any case, as a system manager you would
    > have notes/backups on how you organised the system (I backup /etc on all
    > systems, to be able to consult them after an update/upgrade/new
    > install).


    AHH! But that is a crucial step that many people don't do. And those
    that do are often not that strict as to be completely reliable. If you
    miss a service not installed, a configuration file different from default...

    Of course, you can run an rpm query to find out what config files differ
    from the default configs, previous to install the new system.

    > You also have to check if any newer version of
    > application/database software has new/depricated functionality to begin
    > with. In that whole process the keeping of old configuration files on
    > the system can even be more of a burden. And it leads to old rubish in
    > the system.


    Well, that is the same case as many do: simply copy over the config
    files from the old backup, without thinking.

    The process is the same for a new install replacing an old one, as for
    an upgrade in place: you have to review all configs. The advantage is
    that it is working earlier, as you continue the review. Or, you can do
    the review previous to the upgrade to save time.

    Another strategy is to install a new server side by side the old one,
    replicating all services one by one. When done, switch over. If it
    fails, the old one is still available...


    > But you can manage your systems in your way. I only advised the OP based
    > on my experiences.


    Same as I do :-)

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    I appreciate all of your inputs. And your conversations have given me several new things to think about. My main trepidation with just doing a fresh install is that this is a production server and when I start that procedure there is really no fall back. Ok I know a known, good backup is the ultimate fallback. But at that point I am stuck either trying to bang out the new/fresh install or dump that and reinstall the old OS and copy all the related configs/settings from the backup. The pain point for me is where to draw the line between the two.

    Of course all that is assuming worst-case-scenario....Where there is the chance that the upgrade will work - or at least mostly work upon in-place upgrade. I hope that makes sense.....

    Again - I appreciate your input.
    John

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    I can only repeat that I do not see your concern that installing fresh would be more dangerous then upgrading of any kind. A broken upgrade would most certainly leave you at a point were you do not know what is overwritten which a newer version and what not. It would make you to recover from your backup in the same way as with a broken install.

    But in the end, it is up to you to decid
    Henk van Velden

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Need download of OpenSUSE 12.1

    Quote Originally Posted by hcvv View Post
    I can only repeat that I do not see your concern that installing fresh would be more dangerous then upgrading of any kind. A broken upgrade would most certainly leave you at a point were you do not know what is overwritten which a newer version and what not. It would make you to recover from your backup in the same way as with a broken install.

    But in the end, it is up to you to decide
    Very good point - and likely the best reasoning for just doing a fresh install.

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