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Thread: Inconsistent mess?

  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Inconsistent mess?

    I'm seeing a few threads relating to a growing problem with the current 'desktop'. Initially I though it was just the way I was trying to maintain a 'classic' desktop that works just how I EXPECT it to work, but it seems to be a more general 'mess'?

    I've switched gnome to cinamon which has restored things to how I've been used to doing them for many years. I don't find the newer **** provides anything in usability for someone who tends to live on the keyboard and using the mouse is a distraction. But a CRITICAL problem is the now annoyingly inconsistent way that scroll bars now work. Seamonkey, on which I'm typing this, runs the scroll bar as I expect ... buttons top and bottom ... not a show stopper, but ESSENTIAL with the other major problem ... clicking in the area above and below the tab not doing a page up or page down! It's the fact that this is now 'application dependent' that has created a totally unusable mess? IF I want to move to a vertical position I click on the tab and drag. If I click above or below I get the next page up or down. When the pigging thing jumps well away, getting back to where you were becomes troublesome on long listings. Click in the side bar and it jumps just does not work with long files!

    HOW the desktop works needs to be consistent, so if that means we now have to disable applications that don't work in the same way, perhaps that is what we now need? SO how do I get a file viewer that scrolls the same way as I am used to. 'nemo' which at least restores things like a decent 'connect to server' but scrolls wrong. At least I can live with gedit being wrong as eclipse still works properly across Linux and Windows ...

    Does anybody else find this total disregard for consistency a major waste of time?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    On 2013-07-15 12:06, lsces wrote:

    > buttons top and bottom ... not a show stopper, but ESSENTIAL with the
    > other major problem ... clicking in the area above and below the tab not
    > doing a page up or page down! It's the fact that this is now
    > 'application dependent' that has created a totally unusable mess?


    It has always been application dependent - even in Windows.

    What I expect to happen is a whole screen up or down, normally
    equivalent to a page up/dn keypress.

    In fact, I have not observed any major deviation in behaviour over the
    years.


    > Does anybody else find this total disregard for consistency a major
    > waste of time?


    I think that a moderator will probably move this thread to chit-chat or
    soapbox, because you are not requesting help on a technical question.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by lsces View Post
    I'm seeing a few threads relating to a growing problem with the current 'desktop'. Initially I though it was just the way I was trying to maintain a 'classic' desktop that works just how I EXPECT it to work, but it seems to be a more general 'mess'?
    If it is a "general mess", I suspect you are still referring to Gnome desktop.

    But a CRITICAL problem is the now annoyingly inconsistent way that scroll bars now work. Seamonkey, on which I'm typing this, runs the scroll bar as I expect ... buttons top and bottom ... not a show stopper, but ESSENTIAL with the other major problem ... clicking in the area above and below the tab not doing a page up or page down! It's the fact that this is now 'application dependent' that has created a totally unusable mess? IF I want to move to a vertical position I click on the tab and drag. If I click above or below I get the next page up or down. When the pigging thing jumps well away, getting back to where you were becomes troublesome on long listings. Click in the side bar and it jumps just does not work with long files!
    Inconsistency is bad, especially within the same DE, and probably for anyone using different DE's within the same distro but easier to excuse. Clicking in the area above and below the scrollbar tab should always go to top and bottom of current page. Wrt scroll bars, that's how it's been for more than two decades when properly implemented e.g. by an application on the Windows platform (yes there will be a few exceptions even there). For browsers and file viewers, it's important. I'm on a 12.2 + KDE system at the moment, and that is exactly how SeaMonkey does it, correctly in my opinion.

    [/QUOTE]Does anybody else find this total disregard for consistency a major waste of time?[/QUOTE]
    Yes it's a time-waster, so perhaps you should consider setting up a "classic" desktop on another DE/distro.

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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    What I expect to happen is a whole screen up or down, normally
    equivalent to a page up/dn keypress.
    What is a whole screen? That depends on a setting or the depth of your display? With SeaMonkey on KDE clicking in the scroll bar will AFAICT behave like PgUP/PgDn, but towards the ends of the scroll bar it behaves like I have posted. My experience is different to yours, and agrees with the OP, especially wrt to browsers.

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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    If it is a "general mess", I suspect you are still referring to Gnome desktop.
    And the only reason I'm on Gnome after years of KDE is the mess created by KDE4 ... While I could get a 'classic' view it was never stable.
    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Does anybody else find this total disregard for consistency a major waste of time?
    Yes it's a time-waster, so perhaps you should consider setting up a "classic" desktop on another DE/distro.
    Cinnamon was supposed to be targetting that? But it's the application variations that it can't do anything about.

    Yes - it's the fact that on LONG file listings we do not get a 'page up/page down' action when clicking on the scroll bar. It's not a problem if you only have three or four 'pages' of information, but with more than a dozen then it's almost impossible to get to the right view without getting the buttons restored and using them. This is a 'recent change' to what has always worked in the page up/page down way across all plaforms.
    Last edited by lsces; 15-Jul-2013 at 05:26. Reason: messed up quoting

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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    I think that a moderator will probably move this thread to chit-chat or
    soapbox, because you are not requesting help on a technical question.
    The style may be chit-chat/soapbox like, but there are questions of a technical nature in there, wrt alternatives meeting a technical requirement.

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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by lsces View Post
    And the only reason I'm on Gnome after years of KDE is the mess created by KDE4 ... While I could get a 'classic' view it was never stable.
    You weren't alone in taking that path, but then Gnome3 happened, and now KDE4 is pretty stable but could be leaner and quicker. Let's avoid those kind of comparisons here.

    It seems you are looking for credible alternative applications working on Gnome, with a consistent navigational interface. That could include apps built for KDE that perform well enough on Gnome/Cinnamon, could it not?

    If so, there may be some posters around here with suitable suggestions based on practical experience.

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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    On 2013-07-15 14:16, consused wrote:
    >
    > robin_listas;2572014 Wrote:
    >>
    >> What I expect to happen is a whole screen up or down, normally
    >> equivalent to a page up/dn keypress.

    > What is a whole screen? That depends on a setting or the depth of your
    > display?


    Whatever is displayed currently in the window of the application.

    For example. I have libreoffice-calc opened. It is displaying 48 rows. I
    click above or below of the scroll bar, and it moves just 48 rows in the
    expected direction.

    What's the problem?

    > With SeaMonkey on KDE clicking in the scroll bar will AFAICT
    > behave like PgUP/PgDn, but towards the ends of the scroll bar it behaves
    > like I have posted. My experience is different to yours, and agrees with
    > the OP, especially wrt to browsers.


    Well, I don't see any problem on my side with scroll bars.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    On 2013-07-15 14:16, consused wrote:
    What's the problem?
    Well, I don't see any problem on my side with scroll bars.
    Libreoffice is still 'old school'

    My SPECIFIC problem as listed ... 'nemo' for file management on Cinnamon and nautilus has the same 'new school' style. gedit and evince 'jump' while gimp and inkscape 'step'
    You obviously don't use the apps which DO have a problem ...

    NEMO is my main problem as I said and the one I'd like to find a suitable 'old school' replacement with the 'old school' server select box. I have many machines I need to access and this is the fast way of doing it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Inconsistent mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    Whatever is displayed currently in the window of the application.
    I see. It's a pity that is called "Paging" when it really is "Scrolling" of the screen, so ScrollUp/Down" would make more sense (and for the key label). I also see with SeaMonkey when editing a forum thread, PgUp/Down scrolls a bit further than clicking in the scroll bar. That is inconsistent! At least with a click and hold in the bar near the arrowheads up and down, it scrolls to top and bottom of thread page (same as for click+hold of arrowheads).

    Of course arguably, paging up and down in a browser should mean website page by website page, and my notebook has Fn+PgUp/Dn key combo to do that. In a word processor it could mean document page by page navigation (nearly said scrolling). A user might call that smart consistency, i.e. when it's consistent with the application.

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