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Thread: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

  1. #1

    Default Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Hi:

    I've been on Suse 10.3 for a while, since as I get older, dealing with change gets harder and harder so I avoid upgrades for as long as possible.

    I started with Linux in 1994, with Slackware. I spent nearly a year studying it before committing to using it. I started with Linux in the first place due to severe psychological trauma caused by a terrible Windows 3.1 data loss event, which thanks to 3-levels of backing up my school work at the time, saved me from loosing 40 hrs of work, vs. only 8 hrs.

    I feel that in recent years, with the advent of "Beagle" and other under-the-hood indexing/database, etc. mechanisms turned on by default and which I have no idea what they are good for and no interest in learning since my usage paradigm is good enough for me, that the Linux desktop experience has only turned downhill.

    I'll spend a day or two reading about all the different distributions, and all the trimmed down desktops like XFCE, etc. and the plethora of choices becomes so overwhelming that the idea of going back to Windows starts to sound sensible.

    In other words, maybe sometimes too many choices is just as much trouble as no choice at all.

    But of course the M$ idiots are running with the same stupid philosophy of completely changing the UI paradigms every new version, so I can no longer even figure out how to print or save my document in M$ Word, should I have to use that abomination at work to edit some corp. doc that doesn't work in OO.org.

    Was it really necessary to through away the age-old concept of "File Edit View..." menus that even a moron can figure out how to accomplish the most basic tasks without needing training or to sit through hours of tutorials before being able to do anything?

    Well, all of this might not bother me so much if the smarty-pants "the computer is going to do things for you automatically that you don't even know about yet" Beagle, virtuoso-t etc. garbage was TURNED OFF BY DEFAULT!

    But of course it isn't that way, so when I consider installing a new Linux now days I have to anticipate not only several weeks down the drain figuring out how everything has changed and what I have to learn new to accomplish the same old basic admin tasks (and resolve all sorts of hardware and other quirks), but also how to turn off the junk that I don't want that is more likely to just cause the computer to bog down and crash in a few months (like just happened to my wife's after 2-3 months of Suse 12.1) than to do anything useful.

    Basically, I come from the philosophy of: "the computer should do nothing other than what it is explicitly commanded to do by me, the user." For the smart stuff that UI/OS programmers who think they know best how my usage paradigms should operate (sound's like the attitude of a certain soft. co. in Redmond) really. It would be fine if they want to make that stuff available to me, as programs to run if I should choose to execute them. But they shouldn't be running by default.

    Well, I don't expect a great answer. This isn't that much more solvable than "what is the meaning of life?"

    One other thing, I often ***** to my wife that it seems the OS developers have made the (arrogant) mistake of thinking that the purpose of the computer is to run the OS rather than that the purpose of the OS is to allow the user to use the computer to run programs (of the user's choosing). I think this misconception is the root of much of the problem.

    Thanks for comments.

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    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    But of course it isn't that way, so when I consider installing a new Linux now days I have to anticipate not only several weeks down the drain figuring out how everything has changed and what I have to learn new to accomplish the same old basic admin tasks (and resolve all sorts of hardware and other quirks), but also how to turn off the junk that I don't want that is more likely to just cause the computer to bog down and crash in a few months (like just happened to my wife's after 2-3 months of Suse 12.1) than to do anything useful.
    The good news is that "xterm" still gives you a command line.

    I usually take what's there, with only minor tweaking (perhaps disabling "akonadi" in KDE). It isn't worth the effort going through everything with a fine tooth comb. If I really wanted to put in that much effort, I would go with ArchLinux or gentoo.
    openSUSE Leap 15.1; KDE Plasma 5;
    testing Leap 15.2Alpha

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Agree,lucky that KDE & Yast "mortal combo" let's you disable all that junk,and you get a nice peppy system without nepomuk/akonadi running in background,with pulse audio disabled,that zeitgeist package uninstalled and so on!Stop indexing my data modern OS-es,let me do that manually and don't bog down my PC!

  4. #4
    dd NNTP User

    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    > It would be fine if they want
    > to make that stuff available to me, as programs to run if I should
    > choose to execute them. But they shouldn't be running by default.
    >
    > Well, I don't expect a great answer.


    i pretty much promise this won't be a great answer, but let me dribble
    out a few thoughts:

    first: thanks for caring enough about Linux, openSUSE and this problem
    to put together a thoughtful note (that i don't disagree with in any way)

    second: just turn off what you don't want.. yes, that will require you
    to either google to find out how, or ask here. if you had asked how to
    turn it off someone could tell you how... you didn't ask but, i have a
    couple of URLs which might make you smile (i used them to banish the CPU
    sucking searchers building a db i would never use, from my
    machine...which i also wish had not been default installed and turned on):
    http://ubuntuku.org/16/how-to-disable-nepomuk-akonadi/
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Tracker

    third, on the very difficult question of what should or should not be
    installed and on by default:

    it is generally felt that the thousands of folks who volunteer their
    time to build the system for us should be allowed to decide the way
    forward..

    sure, they should take into consideration the wants, needs, likes and
    dislikes of their appreciative (and even unhappy) users....AND you
    should feel very welcome to make your wishes known!

    so you did (thank you), but in the wrong place to actually make much of
    an impact. because there are very few of those volunteer developers,
    packagers, interface designers, code hackers, and otherwise Linux
    enthusiast who come here looking for ideas on things to fix, or how to
    improve the product..

    let me now quote/paraphrase and/or otherwise present the ideas of
    another helper around here, who goes by the handle 'oldcpu'--from an old
    post of his:

    we (forums.opensuse.org) are a support forum of enthusiasts and
    volunteers ... users helping users ... we are not a packaging nor a
    development forum.

    If one wishes to interact with the packagers and developers of openSUSE
    then the places to do so are listed in the Communications channel wiki
    for openSUSE <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels> as
    mailing lists, and IRC freenode chat channels such as #opensuse-factory. . .

    If one wishes to recommend an improvement to openSUSE, then the place to
    do so is openSUSE fate <https://features.opensuse.org/>. . .

    If one wishes to report a bug, then the place to do so is at Bugzilla
    <http://tinyurl.com/nzhq7j>. . .
    i've not looked, but i'd guess if you take a look in any or all of those
    three communications channels you will find that you are *not* the first
    person who thinks "Beagle, virtuoso-t etc. garbage" be "TURNED OFF BY
    DEFAULT!"

    however, i'd also bet you would find a larger number of code crunchers
    who think it is a really great feature, and are *willing* to do their
    best to make it better and better over time...

    so we have the underlying problem of 'folks' who are 'users' wishing all
    of those volunteer hackers wanted exactly the same thing as the
    users..and folks who are hackers wondering why all the users don't want
    exactly the same thing they are willing to burn the midnight oil to
    _create_..

    and so i see little hope that everyone involved will be totally happy
    with all the decisions of all the other parties..


    fourth, and on the other hand:

    you can use SUSE Studio <http://susestudio.com/> and the openSUSE Build
    Service <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial> to
    create you very own, personalized Linux with everything you want, and
    nothing you don't want in there, and working, by default..

    but, i find it a lot easier to just install the default (after making
    sure all of my data is safe and secure in a couple of off machine, and
    off site spots) and see what surprises are inside...and then by using
    google (and the forums) do some adding and subtracting until Goldilocks
    thinks it is "just right"..

    as a technique to make it easier for me the next time i wanna upgrade to
    a newer version i go to the pains of documenting the personal 'fixes' i
    made along the way to get to "just right"...you might wanna do something
    similar, mine is here: http://tinyurl.com/DD-Software

    --
    dd http://goo.gl/PUjnL

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff? <SNIP>
    Well, I don't expect a great answer. This isn't that much more solvable than "what is the meaning of life?"

    Hang on a minute! You don't expect a great answer because you've already expressed a pre-conception of what an OS should be:


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    Basically, I come from the philosophy of: "the computer should do nothing other than what it is explicitly commanded to do by me, the user."

    Really? In which case you must be fluent in assembler language or coded your own compiler, so you can command your registers and assembler instructions of the CPU so you, the user, have complete control (not to mention code your own operating system). This of course taking your comment `explicity commanded to do by me' to the extreme which I suspect you didn't mean and I apologise if this rebuttal comes across as rude or aggressive! But the point I'm trying to make is there inevitably has to be a degree of compromise if you want time to do other things, so we are all forced to accept a degree of loss of control.


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    I'll spend a day or two reading about all the different distributions, and all the trimmed down desktops like XFCE, etc. and the plethora of choices becomes so overwhelming that the idea of going back to Windows starts to sound sensible.
    In other words, maybe sometimes too many choices is just as much trouble as no choice at all.

    You are now in danger of contradicting yourself . The more control you demand, inevitably the more choices you will have since they have not been made for you (as is the case for MS and Apple). You cannot have it both ways! At the one extreme you have Apple wherein you're locked into their system with few choices available to you, and on the other you have Gentoo Linux which you can compile to your requirements. Where you wish to be on the spectrum is up to you, but don't expect control without having to make choices!


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    Was it really necessary to through away the age-old concept of "File Edit View..." menus that even a moron can figure out how to accomplish the most basic tasks without needing training or to sit through hours of tutorials before being able to do anything?

    I don't use LibreOffice, but I think it still maintains the `File, Edit, View' concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    But of course it isn't that way, so when I consider installing a new Linux now days I have to anticipate not only several weeks down the drain figuring out how everything has changed and what I have to learn new to accomplish the same old basic admin tasks (and resolve all sorts of hardware and other quirks), but also how to turn off the junk that I don't want that is more likely to just cause the computer to bog down and crash in a few months (like just happened to my wife's after 2-3 months of Suse 12.1) than to do anything useful.

    Linux is not free. You pay with your time rather than cash. In my opinion this makes Linux more expensive than Windows, but the investment is more then worth it, especially with openSUSE! If you're not convinced by the investment then I suggest you (and/or your wife) return to Windows, perhaps installing LibreOffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    For the smart stuff that UI/OS programmers who think they know best how my usage paradigms should operate (sound's like the attitude of a certain soft. co. in Redmond) really. It would be fine if they want to make that stuff available to me, as programs to run if I should choose to execute them. But they shouldn't be running by default.

    Bloatware is feature of many operating systems, because developers understandibly adopt a `shotgun' approach in attempt to accommodate the many users who do necessarily share the same pre-conceptions as you. If you want to have absolute control, then install Gentoo but don't come back complaining that there are too many choices!


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    One other thing, I often ***** to my wife that it seems the OS developers have made the (arrogant) mistake of thinking that the purpose of the computer is to run the OS rather than that the purpose of the OS is to allow the user to use the computer to run programs (of the user's choosing). I think this misconception is the root of much of the problem.

    I disagree. Distro developers *know* there's nothing to stop users switching distros and therefore it's in their interests to focus on optimising the user experience. Personally I think openSUSE have set themselves a mammoth task by maintaining ambivalence between the different desktop environments so you, the user, can choose for yourself. That, and YaST, is one of the things that sets openSUSE from the rest of the distro world. You can install different desktop environments on top of other distros (e.g. Arch/Gentoo), but openSUSE go out of their way to make it easy and support both KDE and GNOME equally well, not forcing you down one way or the other (and how can that be arrogant?).


    Quote Originally Posted by crobc View Post
    Thanks for comments.

    Pleasure!

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    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    For a while there, I was sure this was Soapbox...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by flymail View Post
    In which case you must be fluent in assembler language or coded your own compiler, so you can command your registers and assembler instructions of the CPU so you, the user, have complete control (not to mention code your own operating system). This of course taking your comment `explicity commanded to do by me' to the extreme which I suspect you didn't mean and I apologise if this rebuttal comes across as rude or aggressive! But the point I'm trying to make is there inevitably has to be a degree of compromise if you want time to do other things, so we are all forced to accept a degree of loss of control.
    It is not surprising then that after a few years off from programming on the 8088 based IBM-PC, when I finally got back into programming after a long detour of getting a chemistry degree, the evolved PC seemed overwhelmingly complicated to me. So I took to embedded microcontrollers.

    Consistent then with my dislike of the overbearing PC OSes, I have developed a programming specialization in which I combine electronics design, with an emphasis on programming ultra-hard real-time DSP systems which use no 3rd party OS. These days I even design custom CPU peripherals using FPGAs. I do tolerate a C compiler and the FPGA tools that have been provided by the silicon vendors, but my systems execute no line of code that I didn't explicitly write myself in C or asm. Most of my debugging is done with an oscilloscope or logic analyzer.

    This to me is heaven!

    As for your other comments, I agree with everything you say. There is no way for an OS to please everyone. I also appreciate your and other commenter's input here on the perspective of developers.

    Good day!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Interesting discussion.

    When looking into the indexing stuff a couple of years ago myself, one thing I found (and which I thought was comical -- for its potential to possibly explains a whole lot), was the EU's funding support of NEPOMUK.


    Yes knowledge workers of the world, you may rejoice that a wholesomely sound body as the EU itself has got your needs covered!!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Why does anyone want this indexing, desktop "being smart" stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler_K View Post
    Yes knowledge workers of the world, you may rejoice that a wholesomely sound body as the EU itself has got your needs covered!!
    I always disable nepomuk, with every new KDE version.There have been so many, I lost track of the "why?". Maybe it was an instinctive reaction to anything with a name like "nepomuk".

    Now you have given me cause! Perhaps even to remove it completely. Thanks for "maintaining fruitful communication and exchange" via those two links.

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