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Thread: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

  1. #1

    Default keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    I'm a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can't use a rodent, but because I can't use one well. My two favorite browsers, Firefox and Opera both have a "link only" text search feature. Both of which only find links and buttons with actual text associated with them. That is it can't match a text search string with an link labeled only with an image. Unless...

    Isn't there a way of associating some kind of non-visible text based tag {or some such} to an image?? So that, if said text was "Next Page" then typing for example, {in Firefox}
    Code:
    'next page
    or in Opera
    Code:
    ,next page
    would find the link image "next-right.png", making it possible to advance to the next page via the "<Enter>" key {and subsequent pages via "^G" "<Enter>"}???

    Speaking for myself this would save me much aggravation, as I find it sometimes a little difficult to position the rodent pointer on the small image link long enough to "click" on it. I wonder how those with serious dexterity/hand-eye coordination issues handle it?

    It's not so bad if there are no more than 80 posts in a thread cause I can then just use the "last" page link label. (since I already maxed out my posts per page setting at 40)

    Is there a way to accomplish/simulate this with the forum's current design??

  2. #2
    dd@home.dk NNTP User

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
    > *Is there a way to accomplish/simulate this with the forum's current
    > design??*


    it seems that neither browser 'looks' at a page's underlying html source
    code...i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
    alternate text of "Next" is included in the image tags along with the
    image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
    routine way to aid accessibility)..

    for example, i find html code sections like this:
    Code:
    <span class="prev_next"><a rel="next"
    href="http://forums.opensuse.org/english/other-forums/forums-feedback/forums-comments-suggestions/478348-why-can-we-not-stay-logged-2.html"
    title="Next Page - Results 11 to 20 of 44"><img
    src="images/pagination/next-right.png" alt="Next" /></a></span>
    where you can see the next-right.png imaged button having the alternate
    text prescribed to be alt="Next"

    AH!! awaiting better help, instead of searching on
    Code:
    'next page  try  'Next   or  'Next Page
    ,next page  try  ,Next   or  ,Next Page
    --
    dd

  3. #3

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    Quote Originally Posted by dd@home.dk View Post
    On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
    > *Is there a way to accomplish/simulate this with the forum's current
    > design??*


    it seems that neither browser 'looks' at a page's underlying html source
    code...i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
    alternate text of "Next" is included in the image tags along with the
    image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
    routine way to aid accessibility)..
    That was what I thought alt text was for too...

    Thanks for confirming that alt text was in fact being used. {appropriately in my opinion} AND that I'm not the only one who thought that was what alt text was for...
    AH!! awaiting better help, instead of searching on
    Code:
    'next page  try  'Next   or  'Next Page
    ,next page  try  ,Next   or  ,Next Page
    Already tried the capitalized string... But incidentally, there would be no point in adding the 2nd word even if the alt text wasn't just "Next" As both Opera And Firefox perform the search as you type it in. And on a page where the word "next" didn't appear in any of the message titals, the search errors out before I finish typing the word "next" or "Next"

    However, emboldened by your reply, I've posted to support forums for both Opera AND Firefox.
    So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search still failed to find it...

    All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won't let me search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next & previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the non-searchable link images for those functions. You know down by the links that say things like:
    Code:
    Contact Us openSUSE Forums Archive Privacy Statement Terms & Conditions Top
    It would, I think, be just as logical as including the "Top" link...

  4. #4

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    jtwdyp wrote:
    > dd@home.dk;2495882 Wrote:
    >> i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
    >> alternate text of "Next" is included in the image tags along with the
    >> image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
    >> routine way to aid accessibility)..

    > That was what I thought alt text was for too...
    >
    > Thanks for confirming that alt text was in fact being used.
    > {appropriately in my opinion} AND that I'm not the only one who thought
    > that was what alt text was for...


    I'm not an accessibility expert and I think the response to your
    question may not have been as good as possible because:
    (1) you posted at the weekend and some of the more expert members don't
    participate much at the weekend so posts tend to get lost in the noise.
    (2) part of your question is actually a general one about keyboard
    navigation in Firefox and Opera. The experts may not see it in this
    particular forum.

    I'd suggest that a moderator or the OP either repost/move this topic to
    the Applications forum, which may overcome both problems.

    Also, where does 'Next Page' appear on a forum page? I can't see it on
    any I've looked at. This matters because I want to duplicate your problem.

    > However, emboldened by your reply, I've posted to support forums for
    > both Opera AND Firefox.


    That's a good idea. Well done. I found this page

    http://www.mozilla.org/access/qa/win...nav.html#links

    which appears to indicate that Mozilla think you should navigate only
    with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
    number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
    Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.

    > So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it
    > with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the
    > disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search
    > still failed to find it...


    Since I can't duplicate your problem, I can only speculate. Is
    Javascript involved? If so the rules are very different.

    > All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won't let me
    > search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it
    > would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next &
    > previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the
    > non-searchable link images for those functions.


    Seems perfectly reasonable to me. +1

  5. #5

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    Quote Originally Posted by djh-novell View Post
    jtwdyp wrote:
    > dd@home.dk;2495882 Wrote:
    >> i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
    >> alternate text of "Next" is included in the image tags along with the
    >> image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
    >> routine way to aid accessibility)..

    > That was what I thought alt text was for too...
    >
    > Thanks for confirming that alt text was in fact being used.
    > {appropriately in my opinion} AND that I'm not the only one who thought
    > that was what alt text was for...


    I'm not an accessibility expert and I think the response to your
    question may not have been as good as possible because:
    (1) you posted at the weekend and some of the more expert members don't
    participate much at the weekend so posts tend to get lost in the noise.

    That would be my luck... Still it's better than "no luck at all" {I think}
    (2) part of your question is actually a general one about keyboard
    navigation in Firefox and Opera. The experts may not see it in this
    particular forum.

    Actually I'm familiar with that part. Except that I wasn't aware that it seems to be broken in both my favorite browsers... with regards to alt text.
    I'd suggest that a moderator or the OP either repost/move this topic to
    the Applications forum, which may overcome both problems.

    That would be fine by me...
    Also, where does 'Next Page' appear on a forum page? I can't see it on
    any I've looked at. This matters because I want to duplicate your problem.

    Actually I may have muddied the waters a bit when I described the function of the link...
    I mostly confined my query to the link with the image filename of "next-right.png" And having the alt text string of "Next" which appears on all but the last page of a range of pages, where the pages can be selected by the numbered links, which appear (for example) {along with the numbered links} to the right of the buttons labeled "+ Post New Thread" within a subforums list of threads. And likewise within the display of a thread {with more replies than is configured to display on one page} where they also will appear to the right of the button labeled "+ Reply to Thread". But while I didn't specifically mention the similar link with the image filename of "previous-right.png" and the alt text of "Previous" which appears on all but the first page of such ranges, My query would apply equally well to that link as well.

    Visually the image files with these links appear as single triangle shapes pointing to the right {in case of the "Next" link} or to the left {in case of the Previous link}

    Hopefully that makes it a little clearer which links within the forum that I'm talking about.

    > However, emboldened by your reply, I've posted to support forums for
    > both Opera AND Firefox.


    That's a good idea. Well done. I found this page

    Accessibility QA Test Case: Keyboard Navigation and Visual Focus of Web Content

    which appears to indicate that Mozilla think you should navigate only
    with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
    number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
    Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.

    Now that, I'd like to see...

    > So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it
    > with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the
    > disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search
    > still failed to find it...


    Since I can't duplicate your problem, I can only speculate. Is
    Javascript involved? If so the rules are very different.

    I wouldn't be surprised. But I HAVE enabled javascript for forums.opensuse.org in opera's site preferences.{Along with opensuse.org, suse.com, novell.com & esp.novell.com} Basically When a trusted site such as opensuse.org doesn't work the way I want, the first thing I do in Opera is {Tools>Quick Preferences>Edit Site Preferences} Where I enable javascript... And with Firefox I manage javascript with the add-on "NoScript" Where I would use a hotkey to open a preference dialog for the sites currently wanting javascript access and enable the ones that make sense. {IE since I don't want facebook to track me I wouldn't enable that one... Nor in fact will I even use the same browser to access facebook as anything else. That is the only thing I use Chromium for....}

    > All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won't let me
    > search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it
    > would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next &
    > previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the
    > non-searchable link images for those functions.


    Seems perfectly reasonable to me. +1

  6. #6
    dd@home.dk NNTP User

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
    > I'm a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can't use a rodent, but
    > because I can't use one well.


    don't know why i didn't think of this sooner:

    the forums are perfectly navigable without any use of a mouse
    whatsoever, if you access via nntp, and use am nntp client which offers
    keyboard nav..

    if you don't know about usenet or nntp, you can learn at wikipedia and
    to learn how to access these forums via nntp, read here:
    http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

    --
    dd

  7. #7

    Default Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

    jtwdyp wrote:
    > I mostly confined my query to the link with the image filename of
    > "next-right.png" And having the alt text string of "Next" which appears
    > on all but the last page of a range of pages


    Thanks, now I understand.

    >> Mozilla think you should navigate only
    >> with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
    >> number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
    >> Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.*

    > Now that, I'd like to see...


    I also understand the whole question a lot better now because I have found

    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158757

    The problem has been recognized since 2002. It hasn't been fixed yet,
    apparently in part because people can't agree what a better behaviour
    would be. Why would you think to type 'next to access that triangle
    image, for example?

    So I guess you can implement a solution or try to persuade somebody else
    to write one.

    On a more positive note, as a result of your question I discovered that
    the keyboard access on a popup menu system I use is borked, so I'll be
    fixing that now. Thanks for the prompt.

    Cheers, Dave

  8. #8

    Default nntp Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page linkimage...


    Also testing the NNTP gateway...

    It would appear that on Oct 15, dd@home.dk did say:

    > On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
    > > I'm a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can't use a rodent, but
    > > because I can't use one well.

    >
    > don't know why i didn't think of this sooner:
    >
    > the forums are perfectly navigable without any use of a mouse whatsoever, if
    > you access via nntp, and use am nntp client which offers keyboard nav..


    There are I think *_SOME_* advantages to the HTTP interface. But the fact
    that {OpenSuSE, SuSE itself, and/or Novell} offer/maintain a good/fast NTTP
    server for accessing forum content is potentially {at least} a wonderful
    solution for my navigation issues here. My chosen email/usenet client
    {alpine} has a threaded index view which makes it's keyboard nav easy
    enough. To bad all *nix support forums don't offer the same...

    > if you don't know about usenet or nntp, you can learn at wikipedia and to
    > learn how to access these forums via nntp, read here:
    > http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp


    Thanks for the link. Which told me enough to point alpine's NTTP server
    setting at: forums.opensuse.org which gave me quick access... And provided
    a clue how to do this without exposing my actual email to another rush of
    new spam... this ForumUserName@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org idea is great.
    Errr that is if it works. Especially if my "general settings:
    subscription setting" is used when I post to a thread (I like email
    notification telling me to look at the forum when a topic I'm interested in
    has new activity...)

    BTW: about the NNTP server. It's one of the fastest NNTP I've accessed in a
    LONG time. That is to say 'WOW'...

    Of course if I use the usenet gateway I can't expect to use BBCcode
    enhancements such as underlining can I?

    I suppose traditional usenet/email ">" ">>" etc... quoting methods are well
    enough understood to make the use of
    quoted text
    tags
    unnecessary but is there a list someplace of what conventions are expected
    from NNTP users with regard to things like code tags, url tags, etc...???

    --
    jtwdyp


  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Default Re: nntp Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page linkimage...

    Quote Originally Posted by jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org
    Also testing the NNTP gateway...

    <snip>

    Of course if I use the usenet gateway I can't expect to use BBCcode
    enhancements such as underlining can I?

    I suppose traditional usenet/email ">" ">>" etc... quoting methods are
    well enough understood to make the use of
    quoted text
    tags unnecessary but is there a list someplace of what conventions are
    expected from NNTP users with regard to things like code tags, url
    tags, etc...???
    Hi
    I use a template to add the quote tags. Sure all the bit's and bob's on
    the forum formatting work... there is an nntp test thread in general
    chit-chat where you can test

    --
    Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
    openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.11-2.16-desktop
    up 20:21, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.04, 0.05
    CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU


  10. #10
    dd@home.dk NNTP User

    Default Re: nntp Re: keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page linkimage...

    On 10/16/2012 05:52 PM, jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org wrote:
    >
    > Also testing the NNTP gateway...


    loud and clear.

    >
    > There are I think *_SOME_* advantages to the HTTP interface.


    lots actually: faster access, better access (the http side has been
    plagued with going off the air, or being unable to process log ins, and
    a host of other problems), better threading, no blinkies to catch the
    eye, easier post to post nav, etc etc etc)....there are, of course many
    who have never used such an interface and describe it in other ways..


    > My chosen email/usenet client {alpine} has


    has about everything anyone could ever need!



    > this ForumUserName@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org idea is great.
    > Errr that is if it works.


    it does...as you can see via either nntp or http (your post appears in
    both..


    > BTW: about the NNTP server. It's one of the fastest NNTP I've accessed in a
    > LONG time. That is to say 'WOW'...


    well, there are not thousands and thousands of kids hammering it looking
    for digitized attachments of naked ladies...

    > Of course if I use the usenet gateway I can't expect to use BBCcode
    > enhancements such as underlining can I?


    sure you can, but as you can see the results is an underline in the hhtp
    side post, but just the code on the nntp side..

    many more codes available in the forums are listed here:
    http://forums.opensuse.org/misc.php?do=bbcode

    > I suppose traditional usenet/email ">" ">>" etc... quoting methods are well
    > enough understood to make the use of
    quoted text
    tags
    > unnecessary but is there a list someplace of what conventions are expected
    > from NNTP users with regard to things like code tags, url tags, etc...???


    well, different people here do things differently....i almost always use
    > and >> etc to show quotes of previous messages...i will occasionally

    use 'quote' tags when i want to quote something other than parts of the
    post i'm replying to..

    sometimes i use _my_ time to add url tags, but not always...if you use
    them you make an easily clickable link, if you don't use the url tags
    you make an easily copy/paste link..

    otoh, i always (and so do most other of the helpers who use nntp) use
    "code tags" to set off and make infinitely clear any and all command
    line commands...

    somewhere there is an nntp test thread, here i found it:
    http://forums.opensuse.org/english/o...d-take-ii.html
    if it is complete you can find lots of experiments in the use of bbcodes
    that i made some years back... (maybe using a different sig)

    oh CAREFUL: if you read in nntp sometimes you will see all kinds of
    strange stuff because (for example) if someone posts to the http side
    and uses bold, it will come though on the nntp side as between
    dashes...so, if someone over there wants to write

    su - and, make it BOLD and clear it comes through on this side as
    -su -- which you can see is very UNclear

    so, if you are trying to follow advice given by an http poster, and see
    strange stuff have a peek at the http version....and, note you do not
    have to log into the http side to just read.

    --
    dd

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