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Thread: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

  1. #11

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by please_try_again View Post
    May I ask why you are hiding partitions? I actually happen to do the same thing "on the fly" with Legacy Grub. Actually I do worse, I rewrite partitions entries, so that the primary partitions have different offset and size depending on the operating system to boot. It allows me to "overlapp" BSD partitions in order to use different BSD disklabels. The purpose is to have the same BSD slices in all four BSD disklabels for data or other partitions to share between FreeBSD, NetBSD, openBSD and DragonFly BSD. I don't know how many people in the world do this. We might probably be 6 or 7. It has worked for years. Actually it still does, except that Linux (Grub2) doesn't install anymore on these machines. I think it is trying to be too clever, follow the BSD disklabels and gets confused because mine are 'unconventional' or simply gets confused with BSD disklabels in general. If I delete the partitions entries in the partition table (write 00 in each BSD primary partition 16 bytes entry), I can install any Linux which uses Grub2 without problems. Thus that's what I have to do to install Linux nowadays. Next I install my os-prober version, which supports UFS2 (unlike any other os-prober version which tries to mount these partitions read-only as UFS1 and fails) and I don't have problems. I wouldn't have "problems" with another os-prober version, just lots of errors. But I don't think the installation issue is related to os-prober. I think it is a grub2-probe issue. Your problem is probably totally different. However grub2 is very picky while scanning partitions, and you said that you're hiding partitions. If I would hide partitions by just changing their partition IDs, it wouldn't work. That's of course the first thing I tried - because changing a partition ID is easier than deleting and rewriting the entire partition entry.



    I agree. I would like not to have to apply such tricks some day. I would suggest the Linux installation kernel doesn't have support for BSD disklabels (although I'm not 100% it does). That's nothing interesting it can do with that ... except completely confusing grub2-probe.



    It tries to be clever. I didn't have problems at the beginning (under Ubuntu, which has been using Grub2 for a couple years). It started with Grub2 version 1.99. I wrote a post here a long time ago, as I still couldn't explain what exactly happened.

    ----------------------------------------------

    * The disklabel (= the equivalent of the partition table) in each BSD is different and BSD disklabels are (more or less) incompatible with each other. The Linux kernel has support for the different BSD disklabels, which means that it is able to read these partition tables and create the device special files, which will allow you to mount BSD partitions (or slices) under Linux.
    I hide partitons because Acronis OSS provides this feature and when I boot into an operating system I only want that system to see the partitions I make available to it. What I have found out is that Linux completely ignores the partition type when it needs to mount a partition, so hiding partitions under Linux, by changing its partition type to something other than the standard Linux 0x83 normally does nothing for me on Linux distributions. I even hid a partition which was a copy of another partition, with the same UUID, and Linux mounted the hidden partition instead of it original !!!

    I do find it discouraging that grub2 would pay any attention to partition types given the situation mentioned jusrt above, especially when those partition types are not any partition currently being mounted.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    I hide partitons because Acronis OSS provides this feature
    Humm ... So the fact that Acronis provides a feature is not a sufficient reason to use it. I'm sure I could provide a lot of features that you will never use.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    and when I boot into an operating system I only want that system to see the partitions I make available to it.
    From which other OSes are you talking about, please?

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    What I have found out is that Linux completely ignores the partition type when it needs to mount a partition, so hiding partitions under Linux, by changing its partition type to something other than the standard Linux 0x83 normally does nothing for me on Linux distributions.
    Yes, it's OK. It does nothing to Linux ... except that:

    • If you just want to get partitions out of the way, there are better methods to achieve that under Linux by writing udev rules for example. But it's hard to help you if you don't tell us which other OSses are so precious that you don't want Linux to see them.
    • As you noticed, grub2-probe doesn't like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    I even hid a partition which was a copy of another partition, with the same UUID, and Linux mounted the hidden partition instead of it original !!!
    Absolutely. So you see that it is not the good method. Btw, you should NEVER have 2 partitions with the same UUID (other than a backup). Grub2 uses partition UUIDs and NOT kernel device names. If you plan to keep the cloned partition on the same machine, change its UUID!


    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    I do find it discouraging that grub2 would pay any attention to partition types given the situation mentioned jusrt above, especially when those partition types are not any partition currently being mounted.
    You didn't tell us what you are doing exactly, but unless you're doing something very complicated (but in this case, you wouldn't probably ask here), you don't need this Acronis OSS at all. Grub2 v 2.0 is able to hide partitions on the fly too with the command parttool. although it is not as good as the partnew and parttype Legacy Grub commands. I miss these ones.

    I suspect your boot manager is the cause of the problem. Dunno if it fakes a partition table or write garbage on the first track, or if grub2-probe just doesn't like your hidden partitions.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by please_try_again View Post
    Humm ... So the fact that Acronis provides a feature is not a sufficient reason to use it. I'm sure I could provide a lot of features that you will never use.



    From which other OSes are you talking about, please?



    Yes, it's OK. It does nothing to Linux ... except that:

    • If you just want to get partitions out of the way, there are better methods to achieve that under Linux by writing udev rules for example. But it's hard to help you if you don't tell us which other OSses are so precious that you don't want Linux to see them.
    • As you noticed, grub2-probe doesn't like that.




    Absolutely. So you see that it is not the good method. Btw, you should NEVER have 2 partitions with the same UUID (other than a backup). Grub2 uses partition UUIDs and NOT kernel device names. If you plan to keep the cloned partition on the same machine, change its UUID!




    You didn't tell us what you are doing exactly, but unless you're doing something very complicated (but in this case, you wouldn't probably ask here), you don't need this Acronis OSS at all. Grub2 v 2.0 is able to hide partitions on the fly too with the command parttool. although it is not as good as the partnew and parttype Legacy Grub commands. I miss these ones.

    I suspect your boot manager is the cause of the problem. Dunno if it fakes a partition table or write garbage on the first track, or if grub2-probe just doesn't like your hidden partitions.
    I run 5 Linux distros ( Suse, Fedora, Mandriva, CentOS ( 5.8 & 6.3 ) ), Windows 7, and Windows Vista on the same multi-boot computer.

    All Acronis OSS does to "hide" partitions is change the partition type ID. It does not do anything else to obfuscate those partitions. It obviously takes over the MBR and boots into the startup code of whatever OS you tell it to. It can do a few other clever things, but I highly doubt that it is mucking with Linux partitions in any other way to confuse grub2.

    The only reason I had two partitiions with the same UUID is because I wanted one of my Linux distro upgrades, which was having trouble reading my second and third hard drives, to find the copy of a / partition on my first hard drive. After updating with this copied / partition I was going to copy it back to its original place and get rid of the copied partition. A number of upgrades seem to have problems with my second and 3rd hard drives, treating them as GPT when they are really MBR. They have no problems when I run the distro but their installations are deficient.

    I find Acronis OSS better than grub/grub2. It provides a very good graphical interface for multi-booting. Each to their own.

    Perhaps grub2 is at fault <g>. But I want to reiterate that the installation freeze occurs when the grub2 package is being installed, not necessarily when grub2 is doing anything. But perhaps the installation of the grub2 package also attempts to install grub2 in my /boot partition and it hangs because of some confusion of its own.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    I run 5 Linux distros ( Suse, Fedora, Mandriva, CentOS ( 5.8 & 6.3 ) ), Windows 7, and Windows Vista on the same multi-boot computer.
    OK But what's the point of hiding them from each other? I too install and use a bunch of Linuxes and Unixes. No worry, they don't fight.

    Code:
    # lspart
    Dev  Boot Maj Min  Bsize/Start         Size    Fs    ID    Ver   Model/Mount
    
    sda         8   0        512 B       465.76 GiB     mbr    ata   WDC_WD5000AAKS-00A7B2
    sda1        8   1           63       514017  vfat    06  FAT16 
    sda2        8   2     73947195    285282270  ufs1    a5      1 
    sda3        8   3    361398240    100663290  ufs2    a5      2 
    sda4    *   8   4    462061591    514706474     -    0f      - 
    sda5        8   5    462061593      4321422  swap    82      2 
    sda6        8   6    466383078     52578697  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/ubuntu
    sda7        8   7    518963823     16778641  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/ubuntu/usr/local
    sda8        8   8    535744512     33554432  ext4    83    1.0   /home, /export/nfs4/home
    sda9        8   9    569300992     64491520  ext4    83    1.0   /export/nfs4, /
    sda10       8  10    633794560     16777216  ext4    83    1.0   /local, /export/nfs4/local
    sda11       8  11    650573824     45371392  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/mint
    sda12       8  12    695947264      8388546  ext4    83    1.0   /tmp, /export/nfs4/tmp
    sda13       8  13    704337858     49703062  ext3    83    1.0   /local/mnt/arch
    sda14       8  14    754042968     16916382  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/arch/usr/local
    sda15       8  15    770959413     12578832  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/arch/var
    sda16     259   0    783538308      8658972  ext3    83    1.0 
    sda17     259   1    792197343    184570722  ext4    83    1.0   /srv, /export/nfs4/srv
    sda18     259   2     82335803    285282270     -    a5      -   /local/mnt/bsd/opt
    sda19     259   3    149444667    285282270     -    a5      -   /local/mnt/bsd/srv
    sda20     259   4    283729318     16777216  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/bsd/share
    sda21     259   5    300506534     16777216  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/bsd/home
    sda22     259   6     73947195      8388608  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/openbsd
    sda23     259   7    325672358     33557107  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/openbsd/usr
    sda24     259   8    317283750      8388608  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/openbsd/var
    sda25     259   9    361398240            ?  ufs2    a5      2   /local/mnt/freebsd
    sda26     259  10    369786848            ?  ufs2    a5      2   /local/mnt/freebsd/var
    sda27     259  11    378175456            ?  ufs2    a5      2   /local/mnt/freebsd/usr
    sda28     259  12    411729885            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/netbsd
    sda29     259  13    420118493            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/netbsd/usr
    sda30     259  14    453672925            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/netbsd/var
    
    sdb         8  16        512 B       465.76 GiB     mbr    ata   WDC_WD5000AAKS-00A7B0
    sdb1    *   8  17           63       514017  vfat    06  FAT16 
    sdb2        8  18     18539010    534016665  ufs1    a5      1 
    sdb3        8  19    554724450     79698465  ufs1    a5      1 
    sdb4        8  20    634422976    342345089     -    0f      - 
    sdb5        8  21    634422978      4192902  swap    82      2 
    sdb6        8  22    638615943      8723232  ext3    83    1.0   /local/mnt/mandriva
    sdb7        8  23    647339238     33559722  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/mandriva/usr
    sdb8        8  24    680899023     12578832  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/mandriva/var
    sdb9        8  25    693477918     16803927  ext4    83    1.0   /local/mnt/mandriva/usr/local
    sdb10       8  26    710281908     33559722  ext3    83    1.0 
    sdb11       8  27    743841693      8385867  ext3    83    1.0 
    sdb12       8  28    752227623      8385867  ext4    83    1.0 
    sdb13       8  29    760613553    216154512  ext3    83    1.0   /misc, /export/nfs4/misc
    sdb14       8  30     18539010    251658240  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/bsd/src
    sdb15       8  31    270197250    240412710  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/bsd/data
    sdb16     259  15    510609960     12582912  ufs1    a5      1 
    sdb17     259  16    523192872     16777216  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/openbsd/alt
    sdb18     259  17    539970088      4194304  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/openbsd/alt/var
    sdb19     259  18    544164392      8391283  ufs1    a5      1 
    sdb20     259  19    554724450            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/freebsd/alt
    sdb21     259  20    630221919            ?     -    a5      - 
    sdb22     259  21    563113058            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/freebsd/alt/var
    sdb23     259  22    571501666            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/freebsd/alt/usr
    sdb24     259  23    605056095            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/netbsd/alt
    sdb25     259  24    621833311            ?  ufs1    a5      1   /local/mnt/netbsd/alt/var
    * I just mounted them all to show you. They don't have to be mounted when they are not needed (and I'm going to unmount them right away).

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    All Acronis OSS does to "hide" partitions is change the partition type ID.
    You don't need a boot manager for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    It does not do anything else to obfuscate those partitions. It obviously takes over the MBR and boots into the startup code of whatever OS you tell it to.
    Yes a boot manager needs to put code in the MBR and in the following sectors.


    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    It can do a few other clever things, but I highly doubt that it is mucking with Linux partitions in any other way to confuse grub2.
    It can not be worse than rewriting partitions geometry, as I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    The only reason I had two partitiions with the same UUID is because I wanted one of my Linux distro upgrades, which was having trouble reading my second and third hard drives, to find the copy of a / partition on my first hard drive.
    There isn't any valid reason for having 2 partitions with the same UUID. Just don't do that! Well, you do what you want, but you have be warned, and I won't say it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    A number of upgrades seem to have problems with my second and 3rd hard drives, treating them as GPT when they are really MBR.
    That's not fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    They have no problems when I run the distro but their installations are deficient.
    Yes, first it is complicated, Second, you might be adding another level of complexity with your "Acronised" MBR(s). Some distros, such as Fedora, will create a GPT on a blank hard disk, even on non EFI systems. We've seen recently in other threads how openSUSE setup (on UEFI systems) will convert a non 100% compliant protective MBR into a hybrid MBR (which in turn would prevent WIndows from booting). I haven't been able to complete Ubuntu's installation for years now, without zero filling some partition entries (I'm not talking about just hiding them). So if your MBR is not "picobello" , Grub2 installation might fail, at least during Linux setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    I find Acronis OSS better than grub/grub2. It provides a very good graphical interface for multi-booting. Each to their own.
    You should have the boot manager you like, but don't expect too much support on Linux forums. Most of us simply don't need third party boot managers, and therefore don't know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldiener View Post
    Perhaps grub2 is at fault <g>. But I want to reiterate that the installation freeze occurs when the grub2 package is being installed, not necessarily when grub2 is doing anything.
    No need to reiterate. I know the problem perfectly well. grub2 doesn't get to do anything because it is busy scanning for devices and gets lost somehow, somewhere. The easiest thing to do is to boot from a live CD, mount your root partition (or /boot partition but don't make things more complicated as they are. You don't need a /boot partition!) and install Grub manually. How to achieve this is discussed in other threads. Some people will suggest using YaST. I won't. But we are a multicultural community.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Most of us simply don't need third party boot managers
    Exactly

    And most of us have better things to do than try and find some impossibly complicated messed up way of doing something, that then doesn't behave as we want, just so we can create forum threads about it.

    I've not seen any intelligent information here that gives justification for your 'Heath Robinson' methods.
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  6. #16
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    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Hi,
    I will start with a quote from Ogden Nash "Breakfast foods get odder and odder, Its a wise child that knows its fodder"

    From the contents of the threads I feel a number of us "newbies" are running into problems with Grub 2! Some would have opted to stay with Grub Legacy. But then Grub 2 would have been adopted by OpenSUSE for good reason! I have been trolling through a number of sites looking for guidance, especially for installing Grub2 in its own dedicated partition. The articles in respect of Ubuntu have a lot about such installation, but (for newbies) its applicability to Open SUSE 12.2 installation and necessary changes if any is a big question. I hope some more experienced member/s is able to spare time to clarify matters.

    Personally, I have a Dell Dimension C521 with, two hard disks, one internal and the other external (Seagate GoFlex). The internal HDD is dedicated to Windows Vista, as is the first primary partition on the external drive. The balance space of I TB on the external disk is unallocated. I have set the booting order to DVD Drive, External HDD and Internal HDD. With External HDD disconnected the systems boots into Windows.

    I desire to install 12.2 on the external HDD with a dedicated partition (primary) for Grub2, writing the Grub 2 to MBR of the external disk! The rest of the disk will be an extended partition with logical partitions for swap and different distros.

    How to go about the first installation for 12.2?

    Prakash Chitnis

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by PrakashC View Post
    I desire to install 12.2 on the external HDD with a dedicated partition (primary) for Grub2, writing the Grub 2 to MBR of the external disk! The rest of the disk will be an extended partition with logical partitions for swap and different distros.
    I expect this to work. I would explicitly select correct device (/dev/sda or whatever) and not trust which disk will be chosen by YaST2 as "MBR disk". Otherwise sounds sane as long /boot is on the same disk as well.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by please_try_again View Post
    There isn't any valid reason for having 2 partitions with the same UUID. Just don't do that!
    There is no any valid reason for any program to crash or go amok either. If program cannot handle some condition it should fail gracefully and explain why. Not hang forever.

    The problem is that installation issues are extremely hard to debug. They usually are unique to specific environment and nobody is willing to reproduce it over and over again to test yet another hypothesis about possible root cause ...

  9. #19

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by PrakashC View Post
    I desire to install 12.2 on the external HDD with a dedicated partition (primary) for Grub2, writing the Grub 2 to MBR of the external disk!
    I don't know why so many people spread the idea that it would be better to install Grub in a dedicated partition, but after googling a little bit, it looks indeed like a newbie's approach:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/grub/grubpartition.htm
    When installing, removing and tweaking multiple distros on a single box, what you really need is a single menu of all boots. Ideally, you don't want that menu associated with a distro, because it it were, it would be overwritten every time you remove or reinstall that distro.
    This is not a valid argument - in my humble opinion. It simply means that you're unsure about what's happening to your boot menu while installing a new distro and you're looking for an apparently "safer" solution. In this case, why taking the risk of multi-booting? There is enough work to do with a single distro (believe me!). However I can see a good reason for installing Grub files in a smaller partition, but it is not the one given by most people. A smaller partition has less chances to get brocken and thus, core.img (or stage2 under legacy Grub) has less chances to be relocated (change offset on disk after a more or less brutal fsck). This is only helpful if the boot loader is installed in a partition boot sector, although booting for a live CD and reisntalling the boot loader if the core has moved is not a big deal either.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Failure installing OS 12.2 when grub2 is installed

    Quote Originally Posted by arvidjaar View Post
    There is no any valid reason for any program to crash or go amok either.
    If you're planning to rewrite udev, go on! But in the meantime, how about not arguing about the unique universality of universally unique identifiers? Or do you think that it will help people to believe that if they have 2 partitions with the same UUID and something goes wrong, it won't be entirely their fault (because that's what they're going to understand from your post).

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