Advisory June 2013: New Users beware of using the BTRFS filesystem

[swerdna]

This advisory was updated 23 June 2013.

A lot of users ask for assistance with the experimental BTRFS filesystem, particularly regarding broken installations and/or lost data in the /home folder.

The BTRFS filesystem is under heavy development and is improving rapidly, so it is not recommended for novice Linux users. Here are some contemporary quotes from the official BTRFS Wiki page for Getting Started with BTRFS:

• It’s changing rapidly:

There are typically a great many bug fixes and enhancements between one kernel release and the next.

• It’s experimental:

Note also that btrfs is still considered experimental. While many people use it reliably, there are still problems being found.

• Be wise, backup your data:

You should** keep** and test backups of your data, and be prepared to use them

And just to be thorough, here’s an extract from the MAN page in openSUSE 12.3:

Btrfs filesystem is currently under heavy development, and not suitable for any uses other than benchmarking and review.

If you are going to use the BTRFS filesystem for either your home or root partitions, make sure that you take regular backups so you can write those data back if the BTRFS partition fails.

What do I really think, personally: I think experienced Linuxers should use it to assist BTRFS development, but backup their data. I don’t use it myself because I have really important data in my home partition and I’m a bit slack about backups, so I use EXT4. That probably says it all.

[flebber]

+1

my new 12.2 instal with brtfs just went belly up and stops during boot. Will reinstall with ext4.

[vazhavandan]

@swerdna

If you are going to use the BTRFS filesystem for either your home or root partitions, make sure that you take regular backups so you can write those data back if the BTRFS partition fails.

Was almost tempted to use it !! Phew !! Will it it be stable by 12.3?
Also can we remove it from the DVD. It is odd that experimental features are added when using the stale release DVD

[martin_helm]

Am 13.10.2012 14:56, schrieb vazhavandan:
> Was almost tempted to use it !! Phew !! Will it it be stable by 12.3?
> Also can we remove it from the DVD. It is odd that experimental
> features are added when using the stale release DVD
>
And how do you think will the file system improve if people are not able
to work with it?
It is not the default file system (this is ext4), so what? Shall Linux
distros take the approach like Apple or Microsoft to know better than
their users what the users need?
Whenever someone goes and chooses something which is not default then
this person has to know what s/he is doing.
I always thought Linux is about choice and not about restricting its
users in what the can do and use.

–
PC: oS 12.2 x86_64 | i7-2600@3.40GHz | 16GB | KDE 4.8.5 | GeForce GT 420
ThinkPad E320: oS 12.2 x86_64 | i3@2.30GHz | 8GB | KDE 4.9.2 | HD 3000
eCAFE 800: oS 11.4 i586 | AMD Geode LX 800@500MHz | 512MB | lamp server

[robin_listas]

On 2012-10-13 14:56, vazhavandan wrote:

> Also can we remove it from the DVD. It is odd that experimental
> features are added when using the stale release DVD

No. openSUSE devs consider it stable.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” (Minas Tirith))

[lwfinger]

On 10/13/2012 08:13 AM, Martin Helm wrote:
> Am 13.10.2012 14:56, schrieb vazhavandan:
>> Was almost tempted to use it !! Phew !! Will it it be stable by 12.3?
>> Also can we remove it from the DVD. It is odd that experimental
>> features are added when using the stale release DVD
>>
> And how do you think will the file system improve if people are not able
> to work with it?
> It is not the default file system (this is ext4), so what? Shall Linux
> distros take the approach like Apple or Microsoft to know better than
> their users what the users need?
> Whenever someone goes and chooses something which is not default then
> this person has to know what s/he is doing.
> I always thought Linux is about choice and not about restricting its
> users in what the can do and use.

With kernel updates, one sees an occasional patch to ext4; however, there are
many, many, many patches to btrfs with every new step of the kernel. It is still
changing rapidly. There are experts, who are fully aware of the dangers, that
are using that file system every day. Anyone that knows the problems and knows
how to recover using the relatively ineffective tools is welcome to use it. For
me and my system, no thanks.

I do not know what the state will be for the 3.8 kernel in 12.3. All file
systems are part of the kernel. You cannot remove it other than by generating a
custom kernel, but you do not have to use it any more than you need to use ext2
of vfat.

[vazhavandan]

@martin_helm

And how do you think will the file system improve if people are not able
to work with it?
It is not the default file system (this is ext4), so what? Shall Linux
distros take the approach like Apple or Microsoft to know better than
their users what the users need?
Whenever someone goes and chooses something which is not default then
this person has to know what s/he is doing.
I always thought Linux is about choice and not about restricting its
users in what the can do and use.

Makes sense .Thanks

[vazhavandan]

@lwfinger

With kernel updates, one sees an occasional patch to ext4; however, there are
many, many, many patches to btrfs with every new step of the kernel. It is still
changing rapidly. There are experts, who are fully aware of the dangers, that
are using that file system every day. Anyone that knows the problems and knows
how to recover using the relatively ineffective tools is welcome to use it. For
me and my system, no thanks.

I do not know what the state will be for the 3.8 kernel in 12.3. All file
systems are part of the kernel. You cannot remove it other than by generating a
custom kernel, but you do not have to use it any more than you need to use ext2
of vfat.

Thanks for the info

[Marius_Timu]

As long as Oracle specifically says it’s under heavy development I’ll stick with the standard ext4,of course I’m not a developer so I really like a stable system!

[Cinq-Marquis]

Well, I installed openSuSE 12.3 RC1 with Btrfs and it seems OK for now. I do have some issues, but I think they are related to the BIOS settings icw the SSD, rather than the Btrfs.
Anyone else using Btrfs ?

[nrickert]

@swerdna

New users would be well advised to avoid the BTRFS filesystem.

I’ve been using linux for 18 years. And I wouldn’t try btrfs at present.

If I did try it, then it would be on the root file system. I can always reinstall. Stability is very important for “/home”. There will always be some files that have changed since the last backup.

[Cinq-Marquis]

@nrickert

I’ve been using linux for 18 years. And I wouldn’t try btrfs at present.

If I did try it, then it would be on the root file system. I can always reinstall. Stability is very important for “/home”. There will always be some files that have changed since the last backup.

Wow, you’ve been using Linux for 18 years and still consider yourself a ‘new user’ ?
I’m not so afraid to lose any files, using Gmail, Google drive and Dropbox for pictures. Also I make double back-ups on different HDD’s, so the risk is maybe a few hours of work. Re-install takes less than 17 minutes, I am OK with that.

[user]

On 02/24/2013 04:56 AM, Cinq-Marquis wrote:
> Wow, you’ve been using Linux for 18 years and still consider yourself a
> ‘new user’ ?

hmmmm…i’ve been a new Linux user since 1998, maybe a little earlier
i’m not really sure the first time i tried it and got so totally
confused i quit it for six months or so…

but, have used nothing else since about 2002 (maybe 2001)…and i
remain new, because it changes constantly–and there is no BTRFS on
my production machine!!

–
dd
openSUSE®, the “German Engineered Automobile” of operating systems!

[robin_listas]

On 2013-02-24 04:16, nrickert wrote:
>
> swerdna;2490839 Wrote:

Have you noticed that this was posted last October?

>> New users would be well advised to avoid the BTRFS filesystem.
> I’ve been using linux for 18 years. And I wouldn’t try btrfs at
> present.
>
> If I did try it, then it would be on the root file system. I can
> always reinstall. Stability is very important for “/home”. There will
> always be some files that have changed since the last backup.

You might have to reinstall at an inconvenient time, like when you need
to post a CV for a job or finish a writeup for school :-p

I would like to try it, but on a spare partition used for testing, and
replicated.

For example, btrfs has a nice optional feature: data compression. That
can be used for data such as email or news, with “journal” disabled so
that it does not grow.

If it is true it has data compression, it is the only R/W Linux
filesystem that has it. ext2/3/4 has the option to add it, but it has
never been added. Windows NTFS had it since ever. We are lacking.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)

[Cinq-Marquis]

What next ? Linus himself who will post that he considers himself a newbie

Look what is wrong with trying Btrfs ?
Do it on a production machine, daily machine, fun PC or if you want only on a separate partition, be happy.

It has been on the openSuSE DVD as from 11.3 (July 2010), almost 3 years. If no-one starts using it, it will die and never become the next standard FS.
Who will give feedback, who will send bug-reports ?
Why so scared if you have been using GNU/Linux for 10, 20 or 30 years ?

[robin_listas]

On 2013-02-24 18:46, Cinq-Marquis wrote:
>
> What next ? Linus himself who will post that he considers himself a
> newbie
>
> Look what is wrong with trying Btrfs ?
> Do it on a production machine, daily machine, fun PC or if you want
> only on a separate partition, be happy.
>
> It has been on the openSuSE DVD as from 11.3 (July 2010), almost 3
> years. If no-one starts using it, it will die and never become the next
> standard FS.
> Who will give feedback, who will send bug-reports ?
> Why so scared if you have been using GNU/Linux for 10, 20 or 30 years ?

Because we have seen other promising filesystems come and then be
abandoned, and its users abandoned. That comes with long time Linux
experience.

Yes, it has been in use for some time, but we have seen some users here
with their entire filesystem destroyed and unrecoverable. That’s why we
are afraid, and it comes with experience.

We also happen to know that the tools for repairing broken btrfs happen
to be incomplete. An experienced user will look for those things.

Thus it is mostly inexperienced users who, lured by the promises and not
knowing better, install btrfs on their systems >:-)

You want experienced users to try it? Then back those promises with
facts

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)

[Cinq-Marquis]

Ah, thx Robin !

Complicated business this experienced vs long-time-user
So let’s see if I got it…

1. Experienced users are afraid that Btrfs will be abandoned so they do not try it and hence no feedback or bug-reports are forthcoming and so it will be abandoned by developers and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So the LTU (long term user) can say: “I told you so”. Like this ?

2. From experience the experienced user, again not the LTU, is afraid of a broken system and hence will not try new features,. Even if they have been around for 3 years+. I always thought that 3 years+ was ancient history in IT terms.

3. The tools for Btrfs may not be complete but ‘we’, the fools of Btrfs read current status and are not afraid. Many tools do exist and I at least have two back-ups. Also ‘in the cloud’ some stuff that is easier to have there (emails, pictures & textfiles).

Thus it is mostly inexperienced users who, lured by the promises and not
knowing better, install btrfs on their systems >:-)

Now I understand !

A. I want to be an experienced user not an inexperienced, but I am a LTU who reads and tries new things and who is not afraid (for/from experience). So actually I do not want to be an experienced user just a long LTU an adventurer in LinuxLand. When I encounter problems I read and try and learn and have fun while doing it. This has been my experience the past 13 years.

B. So far so good with the Btrfs, just blew a fuse, no electricity in part of the living room (first time that happened in over 10 years), but PC with that scary Btrfs started up my PC nicely.

C. Tomorrow I’ll buy a fools cap… to wear when using my TuxBox with btrfs

[lwfinger]

On 02/24/2013 03:16 PM, Cinq-Marquis wrote:
>
> Ah, thx Robin !
>
> Complicated business this experienced vs long-time-user
> So let’s see if I got it…
>
> 1. Experienced users are afraid that Btrfs will be abandoned so they do
> not try it and hence no feedback or bug-reports are forthcoming and so
> it will be abandoned by developers and it becomes a self fulfilling
> prophecy. So the LTU (long term user) can say: “I told you so”. Like
> this ?

This experienced user has no desire to destroy a file system. The fact that
btrfs lacks the error-recovery tools keeps me from using it.

> 2. From experience the experienced user, again not the LTU, is afraid
> of a broken system and hence will not try new features,. Even if they
> have been around for 3 years+. I always thought that 3 years+ was
> ancient history in IT terms.

If something has been around for 3 years, AND the tools are still lacking, that
is a danger flag.

[user]

On 02/24/2013 10:16 PM, Cinq-Marquis wrote:
> Tomorrow I’ll buy a fools cap… to wear when using my TuxBox with
> btrfs

buy any cap and use any file system on any machine you wish…no
problem for me!

but when you ask “Anyone else using Btrfs ?” as you did in this
thread’s initiation post, don’t be surprised if the folks who use it
answer, AND the folks who don’t (and why)?

if you don’t want to hear from those who don’t use it, just say so!!

i’m sure willing to be very quiet and let you (or anyone) only hear
what you wish to hear!!

i also don’t use fat, vfat, or ntfs…because i like reliable…i
did use reiserfs until he went to prison, and it was left without a
future.

and, the only partition i ever lost was reiser.

–
dd

[robin_listas]

On 2013-02-24 22:49, Larry Finger wrote:
> On 02/24/2013 03:16 PM, Cinq-Marquis wrote:
>>
>> Ah, thx Robin !

> This experienced user has no desire to destroy a file system. The fact
> that btrfs lacks the error-recovery tools keeps me from using it.

Same here.

>> 2. From experience the experienced user, again not the LTU, is afraid
>> of a broken system and hence will not try new features,. Even if they
>> have been around for 3 years+. I always thought that 3 years+ was
>> ancient history in IT terms.
>
> If something has been around for 3 years, AND the tools are still
> lacking, that is a danger flag.

Yep. They have time enough to make them. Till they do, it is an
experimental filesystem.

A tale.

Years ago, reiserfs was invented. SUSE touted it as the filesystem of
the future, and made it the default installation filesystem, even before
it was accepted by the kernel community. Many of us went for it. I
reported bugs. I was bitten by one such bug and lost an entire
partition. I kept using it.

Now reiserfs is a very good filesystem, which I still use. But the
developers have abandoned it. Sooner or later it will stop working on
openSUSE. A year, ten years… dunno

So now we have btrfs, the new jewel of the crown. I’ll let others do the
testing, now it is more difficult to convince me: I was bitten once. The
fact that repair tools are still lacking is not something that helps me
using it…

Oh, yes, many nice features. I’ll try it one day… when I consider it
production ready.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)