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Thread: Does Apper work properly??

  1. #1

    Default Does Apper work properly??

    Please could someone tell me if Apper works properly for them?

    I am finding that sometimes it updates & sometimes it doesn't, even after seemingly going through the download of updates process,

    Also, perhaps more importantly, does Apper also 'clean up' cached packages after an update like YaST/Zypper does??, I ask because after an update just performed by Apper, I have 100mb less hd space?

    Any replies greatly appreciated, thank you.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    Almost nobody here uses Apper. Reason: it borked things.
    The general advice here is: deinstall Apper (I even let it not install on system installation).

    Use YaST > Software > Online update (or zypper patch) for the security updates frpm the Update repo.
    Henk van Velden

  3. #3

    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    Ah, people spreading FUD about apper again instead of explaining and showing where to find the information needed to analyse the issue. Apper does what it is told. Actually using it is a lot less dangerous than using zypper because e.g. it cannot change vendors while zypper offers that possibility to the user.

    Information missing from the original reporter is (at least): oS version, KDE version, apper version, what kind of updates, i.e. only patches from the official update repo or any buildservice repos involved etc.

    Apper does not do anything but forward commands and show lists it gets from the zypper backend. zypp backend selects, installs, updates etc. according to the zypp configs, e.g. by default: do not show any updates that require vendor change.

    If you install updates new packages might be installed as well if dependencies changed. Hence updating can lead to less space on the disk. zypper shows this in an extra section, apper does as well, i.e. before it installs, it shows a list of packages to be updated and packages to be installed. So you can check before starting the update what's going to happen.

    Anyway, you can find the zypp backend's logs at /var/log/pk_backend-zypp and check what it did, e.g. if new packages were installed to meet dependencies and not just old packages updated etc. If it did something wrong, report it to bugzilla.novell.com and use libzypp/zypp as component.

    Apper bugs are only things like buttons not working, apper crashing etc., i.e. front-end bugs. If it shows the wrong packages in its list etc. that's backend stuff, i.e. either PackageKit or more likely zypp-backend.

    Ah, what might also be helpful is:

    1. By default apper gets lists of what zypper lu would show or zypper up would do. So you can run zypper lu and apper should show the same. If not -> backend bug. If it shows the same it's either a feature or a genuine zypper bug.

    2. If you want to check whether there is a bug in what apper shows (and apper is only the KDE app unlike some people assuming that every desktop update module is called apper) you can open a konsole and use "pkcon get-updates" or "pkcon update". If that shows the same error, it's not apper at fault since it just shows what got forwarded.

    3. The zypp backend is set by default to show all updates that do not need a vendor change, i.e. zypper up equivalent. You can set it to only show patches, i.e. zypper patch equivalent. The default was chosen by the openSUSE devs (not apper devs) because a lot of people complained that the updater would not show updates from the repos they added. You can however change the zypp backend's behaviour to only forward a list of patches to apper.

    https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=637764#c18

    "Now you can disable packages as well, just create /etc/PackageKit/ZYpp.conf and
    set:[Updates]HidePackages=true"(I hope they did not correct the ZYpp to zypp yet. ;-)

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    That may all be nice and neat, but the basic problem with Apper is that those who used openSUSE for years, did not ask for it, think they do not need it, thus do not use it and consequently do not have experience with it and can not tell realy what is wrong with it or what is good with it and can not tell what obvious or hidden configuration possibilities it has.

    IMHO YaST is one of the main things that makes openSUSE what it is. The software management part of it being an important element of YaST. For those preferring tthe CLI zypper works fine. In such a situation you must come with a lot of big advantages when you want to introduce a new product. It is still not clear to me, and I guess to many of the users here, why Apper was introduced (or even more or less forced) to us.

    Most here do see no need for it, ignore it and will tell others to do likewise if they want to get help with (de)installation problems. Apper people should have made better propaganda to make people wanting to use it eagerly..
    Henk van Velden

  5. #5

    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    Quote Originally Posted by hcvv View Post
    That may all be nice and neat, but the basic problem with Apper is that those who used openSUSE for years, did not ask for it, think they do not need it, thus do not use it and consequently do not have experience with it and can not tell realy what is wrong with it or what is good with it and can not tell what obvious or hidden configuration possibilities it has.
    How do you know who asked for it? What does having experience with apper have to do with the general approach to analysing issues, i.e. checking logs etc. – especially if herlpers claim to be experienced openSUSE users?

    IMHO YaST is one of the main things that makes openSUSE what it is. The software management part of it being an important element of YaST. For those preferring tthe CLI zypper works fine. In such a situation you must come with a lot of big advantages when you want to introduce a new product. It is still not clear to me, and I guess to many of the users here, why Apper was introduced (or even more or less forced) to us.
    How long have you been using openSUSE? For the last years, i.e. long, long before apper even existed, openSUSE has had an update applet which worked more or less well. So stating that an update applet was introduced when apper was introduced would be plain wrong. Hence now the question, why was the old updater applet replaced by apper? Because nobody at openSUSE cared to maintain it and because leaving users without a notification about updates is irresponsible. Hence, be thankful for others taking over that job and providing a notification and update applet instead of decrediting their work and even making and spreading wrong assumptions about what part of the stack is at fault when things go wrong. And I have seen a lot of people messing-up their system with zypper and YaST, yet do I spread that those tools are borked?

    Most here do see no need for it, ignore it and will tell others to do likewise if they want to get help with (de)installation problems. Apper people should have made better propaganda to make people wanting to use it eagerly..
    You did not answer the original poster's question. Neither did you show him the general way to analysing issues with Linux. You spread FUD, that's all. You have no clue about apper and its stack – as you stated. You do not help to analyse and fix problems. You do not ask whether people use buildservice repos but suggest to remove apper and replace it with zypper patch or YOU, neither of those reporting any updates for buildservice repos and hence the user stuck with old and potentially dangerous packages. In fact, neither of those reporting patches either unless the user actively checks. Bravo!

    So here is my suggestion: help users to analyse problems and report them with the info needed to fix them if you are interested in improving openSUSE.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    Personally, I have disabled apper from automatically starting in KDE. But I do manually run it (vi the applications menu) from time to time. I have not had a problem.

    The reason I disable the automatic start, is that it can annoyingly interfere with Yast software management. So I prefer to run it on my term.

    I typically use Yast online update for keeping the system up to date. After running that, I start apper which sometimes finds updates at the packman repos. I think "zypper up" would also find those, but I find apper reasonably congenial for the purpose.
    openSUSE Leap 15.1; KDE Plasma 5;
    testing Leap 15.2Alpha

  7. #7
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    Default AW: Re: Does Apper work properly??

    @rabauke:
    Do not expect people who do not want to use a certain piece of software to help improve it. That may be a policy in a corporate environment where you can force your employees to use something they do not want, that is not the model of free software where the end user chooses what s/he wants WITHOUT having to justify why they do not want something and prefer something else (in my case "zypper up" which just does the job I want it to do).

    @icekool:
    About your original question "Does apper work properly?", the answer is IMHO "no" (bugzilla.novell.com):

    Code:
    728349     Maj     P1     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper does not restart after package manager update 
    725570     Nor     P2     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper waking up packagekit way too often 
    779285     Cri     P2     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper installs software without root-password 
    503071     Maj     P4     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         [apper] Critical updates hidden behind update stack updates 
    756638     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     bnc-team-gnome     NEW         Apper reports update of an package over and over again 
    731301     Maj     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper update unusable. 
    736816     Min     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper authorization window does not get focus 
    739910     Min     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper: Uses filenames found in "/etc/zypp/repos.d" to infer repository name in update dialogue 
    746771     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper only shows description the first time. 
    751651     Maj     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper freezes KDE workspace frequently 
    751669     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper suggests update allthough a more recent version of the affected program is installed 
    772531     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper thinks it still have pending changes even after it actually applied them. 
    772536     Maj     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         Update via Apper failed. 
    774805     Maj     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper: can't enable/disable repositories 
    777938     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper: no updates and error ""This configuration section is already opened in KDE control module" 
    779650     Nor     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper: after pressing 'Apply' it goes through some motions and returns to the same screen. No errors, no dialogs, no change. 
    735326     Nor     P5     All     os.gnome.maintainers     NEW         Apper: "couldn't find package" after installing updates 
    731448     Nor     P5     Other     wstephenson     NEW         apper: failure to acquire a single package causes entire transaction to fail 
    764337     Maj     P5     Other     zypp-maintainers     NEW         apper offers programs for update that are marked as "keep" in yast2 
    732311     Maj     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     REOP         Apper finds Updates for packages which are not installed
    It may improve in the future, but the question as I understood it was about the current state.

  8. #8

    Default Re: AW: Re: Does Apper work properly??

    Quote Originally Posted by martin_helm View Post
    @rabauke:
    Do not expect people who do not want to use a certain piece of software to help improve it. That may be a policy in a corporate environment where you can force your employees to use something they do not want, that is not the model of free software where the end user chooses what s/he wants WITHOUT having to justify why they do not want something and prefer something else (in my case "zypper up" which just does the job I want it to do).
    Absolutely. Nobody is forced to use, improve or help. But doing the opposite, i.e. spreading FUD is useless and not helpful.

    @icekool:
    About your original question "Does apper work properly?", the answer is IMHO "no" (bugzilla.novell.com):

    Code:
    728349     Maj     P1     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper does not restart after package manager update 
    725570     Nor     P2     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper waking up packagekit way too often 
    779285     Cri     P2     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper installs software without root-password 
    503071     Maj     P4     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         [apper] Critical updates hidden behind update stack updates 
    756638     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     bnc-team-gnome     NEW         Apper reports update of an package over and over again 
    731301     Maj     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper update unusable. 
    736816     Min     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper authorization window does not get focus 
    739910     Min     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper: Uses filenames found in "/etc/zypp/repos.d" to infer repository name in update dialogue 
    746771     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper only shows description the first time. 
    751651     Maj     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper freezes KDE workspace frequently 
    751669     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.1     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper suggests update allthough a more recent version of the affected program is installed 
    772531     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper thinks it still have pending changes even after it actually applied them. 
    772536     Maj     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         Update via Apper failed. 
    774805     Maj     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         Apper: can't enable/disable repositories 
    777938     Nor     P5     openSUSE 12.2     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper: no updates and error ""This configuration section is already opened in KDE control module" 
    779650     Nor     P5     Other     kde-maintainers     NEW         apper: after pressing 'Apply' it goes through some motions and returns to the same screen. No errors, no dialogs, no change. 
    735326     Nor     P5     All     os.gnome.maintainers     NEW         Apper: "couldn't find package" after installing updates 
    731448     Nor     P5     Other     wstephenson     NEW         apper: failure to acquire a single package causes entire transaction to fail 
    764337     Maj     P5     Other     zypp-maintainers     NEW         apper offers programs for update that are marked as "keep" in yast2 
    732311     Maj     P5     SUSE Other     kde-maintainers     REOP         Apper finds Updates for packages which are not installed
    It may improve in the future, but the question as I understood it was about the current state.
    Forget about that list unless you checked the validity of those reports and whether apper is the actual culprit.

    Should I post a list of KDE/Gnome/Kernel bugs to prove that they are buggy and should be uninstalled? I guess that shows how helpful such a list is to prove a point. In fact I could claim that part of that list is the result of people bashing apper making it the scapegoat for all sorts of things and the software stack. As I mentioned, some people even use apper for all sorts of update applet even though it only refers to the KDE one and only to the front-end of the stack.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    On 2012-09-15 15:06, rabauke wrote:

    > You spread FUD, that's all. You have no clue about apper and its stack
    > – as you stated. You do not help to analyse and fix problems. You do


    IMHO, you do not do well coming to the forums and start by accusing a moderator of spreading
    FUD. The common consensus here, over the years, is that apper and its friends are a piece of
    rubish - more or less. Many people here think that way, so if you want to promote apper,
    packagekit, pk-update, etc, you should do it differently, telling of its advantages and goals,
    and offer help to those that have problems with it that we can not solve except by uninstalling it.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Does Apper work properly??

    @rabauke
    I have waited some time with my answer because I knew others would comment and I was curious about those comments.
    To make it short:
    The OP here asked and I answered with what is my best answer,. Most people hee do not use it for several reasons and it is most likely they will tell you not to use it. Reason; people using it and coming here and removing it report back that their problems are gone. Search the forums for these threads and you will see that that is a fact. In all those cases you were apparently not available to help them in the way you seem to think that they should have been helped.We here are just openSUSE users.. We help mostly out of our own experience. And we read the threads here (I read may be more then the avarage member) and have come to the conclusion that removing/not using Apper is a practical solution for many. Thus I told the OP that it very likely could help him. My conclusion: in this thread I did the helping. You did nothing to help the OP.
    Henk van Velden

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