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Thread: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    On 2012-05-24 14:48, Dave Howorth wrote:
    > Carlos E. R. wrote:



    >> Well, stop adding new features and start solving bugs, one after another,
    >> until there is none left. And I'm serious.

    >
    > Been there, done that, got the blood-stained T-shirt.
    >
    > I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Trying to eliminate all bugs in a piece of
    > software of any size (i.e. having a large size) is a terrible idea.


    Not all existing bugs, but all reported, ie, known bugs.

    > Reread "The Mythical Man-month".


    Might do some day.

    > A better scheme is to have targets for
    > the number of bugs, for clear-up rate and for rate of finding new bugs.


    Which does not exist.

    > But you're right that the rate of introduction of new features does need
    > to be balanced against the rate of change of the number of outstanding
    > bugs. Unfortunately, I suspect the commercial realities don't allow it
    > without some major change in process.


    Commercial realities? there should not exist in opensource.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

  2. #22
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    Jim Henderson wrote:

    > On Wed, 23 May 2012 21:36:02 +0000, wvv wrote:
    >
    >> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=738951
    >>
    >> There isn't even a response from any develloper or investigator at all
    >> in 5 months since the bug was first reported.
    >>
    >> I know they are mostly vollunteers, and you can't force anyone to do
    >> anything. But still some of them should be proud of their product, and
    >> wanting to make it as bug free as possible!?

    >
    > As it happens, I'm just starting to do some work on a project within the
    > project to try to see if we can improve responsiveness on bugs. Let me
    > see if I can track down some assistance on this - I see the bug's
    > assignment is to a mailing list of xorg developers.
    >
    > It may be that this has to be handled upstream, but if that's the case,
    > then the bug should be updated by the assignee to reflect that.
    >
    > Jim
    >


    Jim,

    Just like to say thanks for your work on bugzilla.

    I'm not a (linux) developer but I've been in IT long enough (since
    antedeluvian times) to realise that developers don't always have the
    time/inclination/motivation to /really/ learn how to use some of the tools
    at their disposal - they're too busy developing ;-)

    Bugzilla is a powerful piece of software and really does need an easy intro
    - and not just for developers - your work is appreciated.

    --
    Alan

  3. #23
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    Hi, all,

    at first, sorry for the bad experience. (I'm not X11 developer...but M17N developer)

    can you tell me which font do you use and which webpage you were visiting?

    maybe I can offer some help on my part.

    and I think there're some mystery here. (maybe) like a black hole.

    some bugs are not reproducible to developers, although it's reproducible to the reporter.

    especially those ones described "ambiguously" (of course not to the reporter)

    here're two examples of my experience:

    1. in 12.1 I can identify the specific btrfs process that ate all my cpu. (that's clear)

    but it's actually the problem because I have 2T hard disks.

    our kernel developers have no such huge disk spaces, so they can't offer any help here, although there're such evidences all over the internet, gentoo, ubuntu, blabla...

    so the only thing I can do is to wait for kernel btrfs developers, I said linux kernel team, not our kernel team, "to fix it unconsciously through other unrelated changes.". it took me 3 month or more to get the fix in kernel 3.2.

    2. I found a kimpanel bug that when you input too fast, half of the input panel will miss. but the developer can't input that "fast", so he can't reproduce it until someone made a key emulator one year later.

    during this time, I can't do anything. although I thought my bug is "obvious".



    in this case, many things can cause a screen broken character.

    eg: kernel, X11, freetype2, fontconfig, firefox, even the font itself.

    and it can't be reproduced by many of us. maybe including the assignee.

    so he actually can't do anything to dig or debug this bug, but have to choose to trust you to assign it to X11 upstream.

    but what if it's not a X11 bug? then X11 developers will just ignore it.

    then you can't get any answer.

    a valid bug will be answered in quite a few hours or days. (my experience, even to a huge project like KDE)

    so I suggest you personally:

    1. if it's really annoys you that much, and you can't find a temporary workaround( like to use chromium), keep on digging it.

    update kernel/X11/freetype2/fontconfig/firefox/font one by one, restore their default settings.

    to see which part exactly cause the problem, then assign to the right team.

    because they can't reproduce the bug, they have to listen to your ideas, if you're wrong, then it comes to a dead end.

    2. try to contact or submit the bug to upstream directly. after you found it's an upstream bug.

    because we distribution developers actually can do little about upstream bugs.

    we don't know how it's been written. we most of the times can only fix bugs related to "settings" or "applications"

    or if you can exactly lead us to the key point...

    digging a bug that not on your system is too hard if you don't the core of every related projects.

    actually it's out of our capabilities.


    Marguerite

  4. #24

    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    Carlos E. R. wrote:
    > On 2012-05-24 14:48, Dave Howorth wrote:
    >> Carlos E. R. wrote:

    >
    >
    >>> Well, stop adding new features and start solving bugs, one after another,
    >>> until there is none left. And I'm serious.

    >> Been there, done that, got the blood-stained T-shirt.
    >>
    >> I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Trying to eliminate all bugs in a piece of
    >> software of any size (i.e. having a large size) is a terrible idea.

    >
    > Not all existing bugs, but all reported, ie, known bugs.


    Yes, that's what I mean, all known bugs. Complete nightmare.

    >> Reread "The Mythical Man-month".

    >
    > Might do some day.
    >
    >> A better scheme is to have targets for
    >> the number of bugs, for clear-up rate and for rate of finding new bugs.

    >
    > Which does not exist.


    Wow, you're much better informed about the project's management
    strategies than I am.

    >> But you're right that the rate of introduction of new features does need
    >> to be balanced against the rate of change of the number of outstanding
    >> bugs. Unfortunately, I suspect the commercial realities don't allow it
    >> without some major change in process.

    >
    > Commercial realities? there should not exist in opensource.


    I think you're conflating two ideas. opensource does not mean 'free as
    in beer' it means 'free as in ideas'. Somebody still has to pay for the
    programmers' time, and that means commercial realities. Unless you're
    suggesting that you yourself, and anybody you can find to volunteer to
    help you, are personally going to fix all known bugs.

    Cheers, Dave

  5. #25
    dd@home.dk NNTP User

    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    On 05/25/2012 10:36 AM, MargueriteSu wrote:
    > actually it's out of our capabilities.


    VERY informative post...thank you for taking the time to craft it!!

    --
    dd

  6. #26
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    Quote Originally Posted by hendersj View Post


    >> I've sent a message to the assignee and will let you know what I hear
    >> back.

    >
    > I hope you are not going to wait another five months on this!? ;-)


    Not planning to, no.
    Your interference already seemed to have worked! There now is a response, but not very usable at the moment, because of: "but since currently our buildservice is broken, the X11Org project is in an
    inconsistent state.". I will probably have to wait untill 12.2 ...

  7. #27
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    Quote Originally Posted by hendersj View Post
    On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:46:03 +0000, wvv wrote:

    > I think there in lies the problem. A bug should never be assigned to a
    > mailing list. It could easily be ignored if no one on the list feels
    > responsible, or if it's a busy list, it might just be overlooked.


    Actually, in my research on how bugzilla is used in the project, that's a
    fairly typical way to handle these things. Bugs go through a first
    "triage" team that check for duplicates and that the necessary
    information is there before the developers get their hands on it.

    In this case, the list consists of two developers who (from what I
    understand so far) do both the triage and the bug fixes.

    But assigning to a list allows the bug to go to a triage team so it can
    be "vetted" before it moves on.

    That also means that if people want to get involved in that initial
    screening process, they can subscribe to the list and will be added to
    the bugs that are assigned by default to that list - and when someone
    leaves the project, they can unsub from the list and the bug's assignment
    will still be valid.
    In that case it's a usefull thing. When you mentioned mailing lists, I was thinking about the typical lists with dozens or hundreds of subscribers.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    (Maybe we should discuss the bug specifics in bugzilla?)

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    can you tell me which font do you use and which webpage you were visiting?

    maybe I can offer some help on my part.
    For me it's not just font related: https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=481569

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    and I think there're some mystery here. (maybe) like a black hole.

    some bugs are not reproducible to developers, although it's reproducible to the reporter.
    In this case there are 2 reporters with an intel graphics chipset in common!

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    in this case, many things can cause a screen broken character.

    eg: kernel, X11, freetype2, fontconfig, firefox, even the font itself.
    It seems to be an issue between the graphics driver and xorg (is my guess)...

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    so I suggest you personally:

    1. if it's really annoys you that much, and you can't find a temporary workaround( like to use chromium), keep on digging it.

    update kernel/X11/freetype2/fontconfig/firefox/font one by one, restore their default settings.

    to see which part exactly cause the problem
    I can do some more testing indeed...

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    then assign to the right team.
    How should I know which is the right team for anything!?

    Quote Originally Posted by MargueriteSu View Post
    2. try to contact or submit the bug to upstream directly. after you found it's an upstream bug.
    I will if it's clear...

  9. #29
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    On 2012-05-25 11:04, Dave Howorth wrote:
    > I think you're conflating two ideas. opensource does not mean 'free as
    > in beer' it means 'free as in ideas'. Somebody still has to pay for the
    > programmers' time, and that means commercial realities. Unless you're
    > suggesting that you yourself, and anybody you can find to volunteer to
    > help you, are personally going to fix all known bugs.


    Most jobs are done by volunteers, like me (I don't code, I do other
    things). It "simply" needs the volunteers to sift their goals.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

  10. #30
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    Default Re: What to do when an annoying bug on bugzilla is being ignored?

    On 2012-05-25 10:36, MargueriteSu wrote:
    > here're two examples of my experience:


    A solution, with problems of many kinds, is to invite the developer to work
    remotely on the problematic computer...

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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