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Thread: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    On 2012-03-09 13:46, rabauke wrote:
    >
    > robin_listas;2446985 Wrote:
    >> On 2012-03-09 01:06, rabauke wrote:
    >>> Most issues people have with apper are acutally zypp backend bugs.

    >>
    >> No, they are packagekit bugs.
    >>

    >
    > Hm, should I believe you or the people at openSUSE actually working on
    > the zypper, packagekit and apper code? I guess the answer is obvious. A
    > little learning is a dangerous thing.


    The suse devs said they were packagekit bugs, so I believe them.
    I know I should not care, but please, please, on the forum as well as on the mailinglist, do not make yourself look like a fool by claiming things you have no clue about but only think you know. Spreading FUD is easy but just harms openSUSE.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDwarf View Post
    YaST Package Management Modules -> libzypp
    zypper -> libzypp
    Apper -> PackageKit -> PackageKit zypp backend -> libzypp

    And the YaST team says the fault is in the "PackageKit zypp backend" (and a little part in libzypp) and not in Apper or PackageKit (Re: [opensuse-factory] packagekit still in 12.1? 12.2).

    Thanks for that link, I could not find it anymore. I doubt though that people will accept and stick to those facts. Blaming apper and packagkit is a lot easier.

  3. #23
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    On 2012-03-09 14:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:
    > The suse devs said they were packagekit bugs, so I believe them.


    +++··························
    > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:17:06 +0100
    > From: Will Stephenson <@suse.de>
    > To: opensuse-factory@
    > Subject: Re: Re: [opensuse-factory] packagekit still in 12.1?
    > ...
    > Please report issues with Apper instead of putting up your SEP fields.
    >
    > I'm working a lot with its author at the moment to get things cleared up.
    > You would not believe how many of the problems are actually not in KPackageKit
    > or Apper or core PackageKit, but are in the openSUSE-specific packagekit-zypp
    > backend itself and therefore common to all frontends, even when using the
    > upstream-developed gnome PackageKit UIs.

    ··························++-

    Thus the culprit is packagekit-zypp, which I understand is a part of
    packagekit developed by, and for, openSUSE.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    25,547

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    On 2012-03-09 15:16, rabauke wrote:

    > I know I should not care, but please, please, on the forum as well as
    > on the mailinglist, do not make yourself look like a fool by claiming
    > things you have no clue about but only think you know. Spreading FUD is
    > easy but just harms openSUSE.


    Don't insult me, I know quite well what I'm talking about. You don't.

    Moderators, please act. No insulting here.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Little Exuma, Bahamas
    Posts
    708

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Actually I think we're all nearly right. We're just hung up on the specific terminology. The actual quote from here is:
    I'm working a lot with its author at the moment to get things cleared up. You would not believe how many of the problems are actually not in KPackageKit or Apper or core PackageKit, but are in the openSUSE-specific packagekit-zypp backend itself and therefore common to all frontends, even when using the upstream-developed gnome PackageKit UIs.
    Of course it's not accurate to blame Zypper or Yast. Nor is it appropriate to blame packagekit alone. However IMHO it's pointless to assign blame at all. The important point is to know that:
    1. at this point in time one can get updates manually using Yast or Zypper
    2. that packagekit/apper is still a work in progress with openSUSE and best avoided for now.
    3. hopefully progress is being made towards resolving the issue with packagekit-zypp
    MS user 1988-2008, Linux user 1998-present, openSUSE user since 2004
    (The first computer I used had a punch card reader)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    On 2012-03-09 15:16, rabauke wrote:

    > I know I should not care, but please, please, on the forum as well as
    > on the mailinglist, do not make yourself look like a fool by claiming
    > things you have no clue about but only think you know. Spreading FUD is
    > easy but just harms openSUSE.


    Don't insult me, I know quite well what I'm talking about. You don't.

    Moderators, please act. No insulting here.
    That's what I meant by "Blaming apper and packagkit is a lot easier.".

    I suggest you talk to wstephenson before claiming anything regarding his post.

    Since even the YaST/zypp-guys (,i.e. _not_ the packagekit-guys in case you still claim that a zypp backend is packagekit's responsibility) admitting they are at fault is ignored, there is not much hope for you. So any further attempts to help you not to suffer from your own ignorance are futile. My mistake to have tried.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Quote Originally Posted by caprus View Post
    Actually I think we're all nearly right. We're just hung up on the specific terminology. The actual quote from here is:
    Of course it's not accurate to blame Zypper or Yast. Nor is it appropriate to blame packagekit alone. However IMHO it's pointless to assign blame at all. The important point is to know that:
    1. at this point in time one can get updates manually using Yast or Zypper
    2. that packagekit/apper is still a work in progress with openSUSE and best avoided for now.
    3. hopefully progress is being made towards resolving the issue with packagekit-zypp
    A service that notifies about updates is essential. zypper/YOU does not do that. Hence using apper is useful for most users. Bothering average joe with command line tools is not. Leaving users without notifications results in exposing them to security risks.

    The zypp backend, packagekit, apper combination works for most users and situations. Hence knowing how to get around issues is certainly useful, reporting those issues even more so. If nobody tests software and everybody just relies on others doing the testing issues will never get reported and hence never get fixed.

    No doubt that there are bugs in apper and packagekit, as there are bugs in every app. Thus I only claimed that most issues people think to have with packagekit or apper are actually in the responsibility of the zypper/YaST devs, as they admitted themselves.

    So in summary, FUD does not help. Hoping does not help. Telling people to uninstall apper does not help either and might even put them at risk.

    Showing them how to work around those situations where the zypp-backend fails and inform them about what the actual cause is and how to report the issue does help.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    Having had strange License message while apper and packagekit were attempting an install I deleted apper from my machine and yast did the required job perfectly. I have no idea why I need apper. Hope it all gets fixed with next release, meanwhile thanks for the advice.

  9. #29
    dd@home.dk NNTP User

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    On 05/25/2012 04:36 PM, Budgie2 wrote:
    > I have no idea why I need apper.


    you don't... just remember to run YaST Online Update (or "zypper
    --patch") occasionally as you will be missing the (often annoying) apper
    reminding you of updates (if needed, or NOT!)


    > Hope it all
    > gets fixed with next release, meanwhile thanks for the advice.


    i doubt it will be 'fixed' in 12.2, as it has been "broken" for years..

    the reason? because it is made by the KDE folks who are trying to make
    it work great on all distros...and, maybe it works wonders on most of
    the distros...but, it doesn't work great here because it won't mesh with
    YaST or zypper..

    afaict the KDE folks want SUSE/openSUSE to change their _preexisting_
    stuff to work with apper (and kpackagekit before it), and the
    SUSE/openSUSE folks want the KDE folks to change their stuff...and,
    until those two views get reconciled it will be best (imnsHo) to delete
    or disable apper in 12.2 too...

    ymmv

    --
    dd

  10. #30
    Taki NNTP User

    Default Re: Automatic Updates - Is Apper as useless as Packageit was?

    On 05/25/2012 07:36 AM, Budgie2 wrote:
    >
    > [...] apper and packagekit [...]I have no idea why I need apper. [...]
    >
    >


    'apper' is a front-end for 'packagekit' for KDE. openSUSE has 'zypper'
    and YaST'. In YaST, I deleted all 'apper' and 'packagekit' packages by
    searching for 'packagekit'. I rarely use KDE but I have not encountered
    any problem after removing the useless bunch.

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