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Thread: Spanish man pages

  1. #1
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    Default Spanish man pages

    Hi, is there any spanish manpages on openSUSE? or at least any editor to
    translate them?



  2. #2
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    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    vampird@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org wrote:
    > Hi, is there any spanish manpages on openSUSE? or at least any editor to
    > translate them?


    http://translate.google.com/ can help with the translation...but,
    there is a way to change the system wide primary language to Spanish,
    or keep whatever prime you have and set Spanish as secondary...use
    YaST > System > Language

    switching from primary to secondary languages for man pages is covered
    in the manual for man, see

    Code:
    man man
    note that the _primary_ man is written in english, and other languages
    may trail in being /translated updated...so: Note: if you read a man
    page in your language, be aware it can contain some mistakes or be
    obsolete. In case of doubt, you should have a look at the English version.

    i bet there is a translation team who might like to have another member!

    --
    DenverD
    CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

  3. #3
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    On 2010-09-21 17:33, DenverD wrote:
    > vampird@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org wrote:
    >> Hi, is there any spanish manpages on openSUSE? or at least any editor to
    >> translate them?


    Just a few. If you have set in yast / languages Spanish as primary or secondary language, you will
    get them... about a dozen or so.


    > note that the _primary_ man is written in english, and other languages
    > may trail in being /translated updated...so: Note: if you read a man
    > page in your language, be aware it can contain some mistakes or be
    > obsolete. In case of doubt, you should have a look at the English version.


    This is very true. :-(


    > i bet there is a translation team who might like to have another member!


    There are translation teams, indeed. But none that I know that translates man pages.

    This is a pet subject of mine. I belong to the Spanish openSUSE translation team, which translates
    suse programs to Spanish. This means programs exclusive to openSUSE, like YaST or zypper. We do not
    touch KDE nor Gnome nor base utils - and not a single man page.

    There are several problems with man pages. The main one is lack of software that facilitates man
    pages translations. Many of these were written in a kind "source code" that programmers may like,
    but translators do not.

    It is true that the man pages can be edited with plain text files - but you have to be careful with
    the tokens or the result may not work or look bad. You don't see the text in the final format till
    you display it outside of the editor.

    There are no GUI for the task- I know one, old and little or no maintained. I have translated a few
    things with this. It is "manedit" - I'm not sure of all the details, I'm upgrading my main computer
    and can't look.

    There is an interesting project that first converts the source man pages to .pot format (see man
    gettext). Then it is possible to translate them in the standard way (poedit, kbabel, lokalize...
    even emacs). The problem is that they are only doing pages related to the kernel, not the basic
    utilities any user would need (like fsck, fdisk, etc). I believe there is a French team working on
    this, perhaps more. I should have an email from the project leader somewhere.

    Why only kernel pages? Because another project collects and publishes them as tgz archive. Why is
    this important? Because to translate each man page you have to contact each an every single project
    out there, one by one, ask for permission, ask for the peculiar instructions of each project (how to
    download, upload, sometimes format requirements...). This is hopeless.

    There is a gnu translation project that collects the "pots" of each project for translation, and
    handle this for many languages. But man pages are not included. And even the part they do, they do
    it very slowly. I can give you some links about this; there is a mail list, too, but the emails are
    from robots, not human (two emails in two years).


    This is what I remember. There is much more. But it is supper time :-)

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    you're right, its better to read them in english

    - --
    VampirD

    Microsoft Windows is like air conditioning
    Stops working when you open a window.
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    Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkyaKrUACgkQJQ+0ABWtaVkIiwCfX/8DG39nid+qy8/HiR0NCdnF
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    =JM+o
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  5. #5
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    On 2010-09-22 18:11, VampirD wrote:
    > you're right, its better to read them in english


    For those of us that are fluent in English, yes. But that is not the case for many users, which have
    to use programs in a language they can not even read. Sometimes the program itself is translated,
    but the manuals are not.

    This is very unfortunate.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    Carlos E. R. wrote:
    > This is very unfortunate.


    seems the solution lies in finding enough bilingual Spanish/English
    folks willing to contribute their time to translations..

    should be doable..

    --
    DenverD
    CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]
    When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.

  7. #7
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    On 09/23/2010 09:25 AM, DenverD wrote:
    > Carlos E. R. wrote:
    >> This is very unfortunate.

    >
    > seems the solution lies in finding enough bilingual Spanish/English
    > folks willing to contribute their time to translations..
    >
    > should be doable..
    >


    That's an issue, yes. And I know a few of them.
    But how many translators can you entice to work with _antique_ tools, designed for unix programmers?

    Look, this is how a man page looks inside:


    Code:
    ..\" -*-Nroff-*-
    ..\""
    ..de Vb \" Begin verbatim text
    ..ft CW
    ..nf
    ..ne \\$1
    ...
    ..de Ve \" End verbatim text
    ..ft R
    
    ..fi
    ...
    ..TH XINE 1 2002-04-16 "The xine project"
    ..\" NAME should be all caps, SECTION should be 1-8, maybe w/ subsection
    ..\" other parms are allowed: see man(7), man(1)
    ..\""
    ..SH NAME
    xine \- a free video player
    ..SH SYNOPSIS
    ..B xine
    ..I "[options] [MRL] ..."
    ..SH "DESCRIPTION"
    This manual page documents briefly the
    ..BR xine
    audio/video player.
    ..PP
    ..B xine
    plays MPEG system (audio and video) streams, mpeg elementary streams
    (e.g. .mp3 or .mpv files), mpeg transport streams, ogg files,
    avi files, asf files, quicktime files, (S)VCDs and DVDs and many more.
    ..SH OPTIONS
    The programs follow the usual GNU command line syntax, with long
    options starting with two dashes (`--').
    A summary of options are included below.
    For a complete description, see \fIREADME\fP and \fIFAQ\fP in \fI/usr/local/share/doc/xine-ui\fP
    or on the xine home page.
    ..TP

    See? That is not nice. A writer wants to see paragraphs, indents, underlines, bolds... not tokens.



    As long as there is not a good tool or process, easy to use, no way.


    Problem 1: There is no easy GUI. No easy tool.

    Problem 2: There is not a central repository of manuals, where the translators go, pick one,
    translate, and upload their work, to be redistributed by that organization to the correct upstream
    place.

    (there is one initial project for man pages of the kernel only)


    Meaning: there has to be a central translation project. Each group of developers wanting their pet
    program man pages (or whatever) translated have to send it to that central place, and get the work
    done from there. The translators for each language work with this central project. It is not
    feasible for translators to fend for themselves in the selvatic pletora of different projects.

    Notice that this does exist for the programs themselves (http://translationproject.org/), but not
    for man/info pages.


    Big projects (KDE, Gnome, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org) have their own means (but no man pages, I think).
    Being big they attract many people. OpenSUSE as well, but only for our software, ie, we are
    "upstream". And we do not translate man pages.

    Different distros handle things differently. Ubuntu has a collaborative online tool of some sort.
    They can translate things but do not upload their work, it stays "inside". I know because they have
    retranslated things that we (me or friends) did, and people thought we had done a bad translation
    when it was the modified work of the ubuntu folk.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    well, i'm not a programmer (so the impossible always appears doable to
    me) but it seems to me that it ought to be possible to allow a
    translator to look at the english man, and type into (say) OpenOffice
    Writer and then "save as" man page...(or, save as PDF and then someone
    write the PDF>man magic..)

    yes, i know some one would have to 'translate' the embedded formatting
    tags in Writer to that mess you called "tokens"...but, (to my feeble
    mind) it wouldn't be an impossible task..

    maybe the near conference (what is it called) Collaboration without
    Borders (or something like that) could get something going..

    --
    DenverD
    CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]
    When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.

  9. #9
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    On 2010-09-26 02:44, DenverD wrote:

    > well, i'm not a programmer (so the impossible always appears doable to
    > me) but it seems to me that it ought to be possible to allow a
    > translator to look at the english man, and type into (say) OpenOffice
    > Writer and then "save as" man page...(or, save as PDF and then someone
    > write the PDF>man magic..)


    LyX would be wonderful, because in theory you can generate html, info, man, pdf... documents from
    the same source with a similar aspect. In theory, using "linuxdoc" templates. I never succeeded,
    linuxdoc is deprecated, and the existing templates do not work (or do not exist). I tried long ago,
    I don't remember the details. New thing is "docbook", but I can't get head or tails of it, either.

    Openoffice would be very nice, but there is no "save as man". I tried, there is something with
    docbook and xml that perhaps could be useful. I tried, I must have notes somewhere. Interesting, but
    not very useful.

    I have also tried XML editors with little success, because the aren't "WYSIWYG", or I can't see it.
    Nor "WYMIWYG" in LyX meaning, either.


    > yes, i know some one would have to 'translate' the embedded formatting
    > tags in Writer to that mess you called "tokens"...but, (to my feeble
    > mind) it wouldn't be an impossible task..


    If work is required, LyX is a better starting point, as you can force a format.


    > maybe the near conference (what is it called) Collaboration without
    > Borders (or something like that) could get something going..


    No idea :-?

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Spanish man pages

    Carlos E. R. wrote:
    > Openoffice would be very nice, but there is no "save as man". I
    > tried,


    actually, i didn't expect there to be such already existing (i didn't
    even look), but surely someone _could_ write the magic need to replace
    a (usually hidden) OO.o "formatting tag" with the man needed
    "token"...and add it in..

    of course, i well understand that is just pure gunt work and not
    really sexy coding (like adding spinning cubes, corner peanuts, other
    cool stuff)..

    --
    DenverD
    CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]
    When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.

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