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Thread: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

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  1. #1

    Default openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello All,

    I've been using /suse/i since the year 2000. I think 7.3 was my first SuSE install.

    I recently installed FC13 ... and wow ... everything that is important to me was working correctly in less than 2 hours ... an experience I have NOT had with a /suse/i release in quite a few years now .....

    Take a look at the many support threads from the 11.0 release forward about problems/confusion around getting restricted formats working. (And I DO remember that once upon a time ... a super simple restricted formats install guide ... "add packman repo and have fun!")

    1. There seems to be a serious bug with zypper/packag-kit/yast/???/integration-of-these that causes zypper to disrespect the priority settings for repositories in yast. I have encountered numerous examples personally. The ONLY reason I have not created a bug report is that I still don't really understand the problem ... I can only point to symptoms. And I have even seen this weird behaviour referred to as a "feature" .... I don't know what the issue is ... but I think IT MUST BE FIXED

    2. One-click .... causes far more problems than it solves ... get rid of it ... NOW. This is the ultimate emulation of Microsoft quality product development; create tools that appear to be EASY, but are ultimately more difficult to use than not to use. Frankly ... it causes me a little anger ....

    3. I really want to create 8 new repos in OBS ... not that I have a real reason ... just don't think we have enough to choose from .... Actually, OBS is great; much more successful than I would have expected it to be ... but having soooooo many repos to choose from certainly poses many opportunities to get confused. This really is not a complaint ... just a statement ...

    ... and don't forget to have fun!

  2. #2

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    1. There seems to be a serious bug with zypper/packag-kit/yast/???/integration-of-these that causes zypper to disrespect the priority settings for repositories in yast. I have encountered numerous examples personally. The ONLY reason I have not created a bug report is that I still don't really understand the problem ... I can only point to symptoms. And I have even seen this weird behaviour referred to as a "feature" .... I don't know what the issue is ... but I think IT MUST BE FIXED
    Use *any* example and open that bug report. It's easy:
    - I do X
    - I expect Y
    - I get Z (Z != Y)

    Until then, I consider this report (and any "serious bug" where the reported "doesn't know what the issue is") an (over self-confident) user error.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    2. One-click .... causes far more problems than it solves ... get rid of it ... NOW. This is the ultimate emulation of Microsoft quality product development; create tools that appear to be EASY, but are ultimately more difficult to use than not to use. Frankly ... it causes me a little anger ....
    You know Godwin's law? I think we need here something similar but about comparisons with Microsoft...
    One-click needs fixes, sure. Still waiting for a volunteer...

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    3. I really want to create 8 new repos in OBS ... not that I have a real reason ... just don't think we have enough to choose from ....
    I know this is Soapbox, but... you know, you could propose a repo organization that you think is better than the current one.

  3. #3

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello RedDwarf,

    Your advice, while certainly intelligent, is actually a symptom of the problem. Typical interaction,

    user: package X from 3rd party repo Y doesn't work
    suse: inform 3rd party repo maintainer

    The chain of responsibility is broken or non-existent.

    See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=553857 for just ONE example of the (f)utility of filing a bug report about anything related to the real issue here ...

    The reason I have posted a soapbox: I am convinced that it will take MUCH MORE than a bug report to disrupt the status quo

    The real issue:

    getting openSUSE to work with restricted formats is much more complicated and difficult than it should be; OpenSUSE can do better; ... don't believe me ... take Fedora's latest offering for a test drive ....

    Thanks for the reply,


    cwight

  4. #4

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=553857 for just ONE example of the (f)utility of filing a bug report about anything related to the real issue here ...
    I will take that as an example, that's all. If you want to say the full bugzilla report system is broken (for anything related to the real issue here) and doesn't works you will need a bigger sample.
    Between, I assigned the bug to the maintainer. Being August I don't know if he is in holidays, but now you have higher probabilities of that bug being read for someone that cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    The real issue:

    getting openSUSE to work with restricted formats is much more complicated and difficult than it should be; OpenSUSE can do better; ... don't believe me ... take Fedora's latest offering for a test drive ....
    If you want openSUSE system to be more Fedora-like... you could explain how Fedora does it. No, I'm not going to install another distro just to try to understand a random forum post.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Works fine for me. I one-clicked on codecs-kde.ymp, let it change the vendor on a couple of RPMs, let it install and 10 minutes later I was up and running. Then I disabled the third-party repos it added. Wads da broblem?

  6. #6

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello again RedDwarf,

    I will take that as an example, that's all
    ... and that is all it was presented to be ... a single example ...

    It's one example to illustrate that clear bug identification and reporting is just that, clear bug identification and reporting ... it will not in and of itself guarentee that the issue will be addressed. Accurate bug reports alone won't get enough attention to make some folks at SuSE think,
    "We really should do this better"
    .

    Bugzilla is not a panecea.

    If you want openSUSE system to be more Fedora-like... you could explain how Fedora does it. No, I'm not going to install another distro just to try to understand a random forum post.
    It is a rhetorical statement; as such, it's not intended to be taken literally, though perhaps you should!

    I don't want openSUSE to be more Fedora-like per-se ... if I did ... I would have titled the post "ditch green for blue ... any takers?"

    Now we get to the good part!

    I can currently identify two distinct aspects that make "restricted format" hadling better on Fedora:

    1. Repository simplicity / the success of OBS

    Install Fedora, install fusion (fusion being the RH equivalent of packman)! Update via yum or pkg-kit ... same results ... every time.

    The success of OBS has led to a multiplicity of repositories. There is often overlap in the contents of the repositories. OpenSUSE introduced repository prioritization in Yast as a means to manage the complexity and potential pitfalls of using multiple repositories with overlapping package sets.

    So Fedora has a distinct advantage in that it does not NEED to juggle repository prioritization as OpenSUSE does.

    Zypper, by design, does not respect the priority settings in Yast. I do not understand why this behavior is thought to be desirable; it appears to cause endless confusion and headaches. This "feature" explains why following an install guide may or may not work. Unless the guide was written with this feature in mind, it will assume zypper mimics yast. Thus following such a guide, depending on how you've configured your repos, what you've already installed, you may or may not get the expected results.


    2. Integration with package-kit

    This seems to be just plain broken on OpenSUSE. It's ironic that the bug I found as an example concerns this integration specifically, is marked MAJOR, and is almost a full year ignored.

    I'll try to discribe how it works in Fedora. Please be aware that I may get some details wrong. I've used FH13 for all of 2 weeks and don't have significant memories of making things work ... everything worked with minimal effort and minimal thought, which is kinda the point of this soapbox. Getting OpenSUSE to play an mp3 should NOT be a memorable experience!

    For restricted formats in Fedora , a single package is needed, it's in thier documentation. From there everything else is packag-kit/gstreamer automagic. Select an mp3 file in rhythmbox ... a window pops up ... "Should I go grab the codec you need?", "Yes, please do" .... and you are listening to an mp3.

    Over the past few years .... the BEST OpenSUSE has done is successfully redirect you to the one-click page, where the one-click may or may not actually get you listening to your mp3 within the week. Other results have included, NOTHING AT ALL, as in the bug I posted here as an example, "Can't find a thing!", "Error, gstreamer needs an mpeg4-aac plugin".

    As another example of this non-itegration, try to use a colorometer with gnome-color-manager on OpenSUSE; it's simply comical. Try it on FC13; it simply works! And for comically absurd, read the response to the bug report I filed.

    Maybe I'm just tired ... but as I think about the bug reports I've read, the forum posts, the endless defensive comments from OpenSUSE folks, the general attitude of complacancy about the os, the "it works fine unless you're stupid" arrogant debianesque "users don't matter" attiude .... I'm beginning to think this is just going nowhere!

    Oh well ... SuSE was an awesome product in it's day!

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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    Try it on FC13; it simply works!
    That explains why Fedora Bugzilla is practically empty related to multimedia, stability or package issues, heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    I'm beginning to think this is just going nowhere!
    You, like most ranters, complain a lot but offer no tangible solutions to issues. Everything you write hours on end have already been written hundred times over and are well known to both the developers and the support staff like say us on #suse.

    You want to improve the product? Give realistic suggestions that are possible to implement with the current resources and legal ramifications or improve it yourself by submitting patches, don't rant - it only provokes people.

  8. #8

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysantine View Post
    You, like most ranters, complain a lot but offer no tangible solutions to issues. Everything you write hours on end have already been written hundred times over and are well known to both the developers and the support staff like say us on #suse.

    You want to improve the product? Give realistic suggestions that are possible to implement with the current resources and legal ramifications or improve it yourself by submitting patches, don't rant - it only provokes people.
    How many users have the ability to write patches?
    How many users are programmers?

    How many users work in a bakery?

    There are plenty of us who lack the ability to do as you suggest. The only way we can address issues is simply be stating our opinions, frustrations, problems or offering some sort of critical analysis.

    By doing so we can only hope it will spark positive debate, make more people aware of certain issues, create thought, make change.

    Stop being narrow minded!

    If like you say the same goop has been said hundred of times then there clearly is a consensus within a class of users of a particular issue. It may be a trivial issue but that doesnt mean it isnt a valid issue.

    Are these users wrong to express their opinions?

    What may seem like a rant to one person may be inspiration to another.

  9. #9

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello Chrysantine,

    You, like most ranters, complain a lot but offer no tangible solutions to issues
    With the exception of the last paragragh of #16, I would not characterize my words as ranting. Most of what I have written in this thread has been "documenting", or arguing, that a problem actually exists. Ironically, you have clearly explemfied the arrogance I did rant about. Such a lovely choice of words ... I am no longer oxala or Charles Wight or an OpenSUSE user or forum member .... I'm a ranter!

    So you have demostated your superiority with name-calling .... nice!

    I had hoped to get two things out of this excercise:

    1. A better understanding as to the technical underpinnings of the problem
    2. Have a real discussion about making it easier

    A little bit of the first has been accomplished ... I have a much better understanding of some of the snags I've hit in the past due to changes in zypper. As for the second, to some extent, I'm simply being told the problem is not real ... so the discussion becomes more of an argument.

    Consumers typically vote with thier pocket books; consumers of free software typically vote with thier feet. I am trying to find a constructive way, short of voting with my feet, to convey the message ... "this is important!".

    Clearly, I have not found the right vehicle.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    Ironically, you have clearly explemfied the arrogance I did rant about.
    Try to step into my shoes for a moment, will you?

    I've spent the last 15 years trying to get Linux into servers, shoehorn it into places where usually the first question has been "WHAT IS LINUX?", spent countless hours in helping people overcome their issues (which I most of the time didn't get paid a penny for) and all I get as a reward for is people like you complaining?

    Why don't you try it for a while and see how it feels, eh?

    So, what have YOU done for Linux?

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