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Thread: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

  1. #21
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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    Ironically, you have clearly explemfied the arrogance I did rant about.
    Try to step into my shoes for a moment, will you?

    I've spent the last 15 years trying to get Linux into servers, shoehorn it into places where usually the first question has been "WHAT IS LINUX?", spent countless hours in helping people overcome their issues (which I most of the time didn't get paid a penny for) and all I get as a reward for is people like you complaining?

    Why don't you try it for a while and see how it feels, eh?

    So, what have YOU done for Linux?

  2. #22

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello again RedDwarf,

    Thanks! A quick read of your post was a real breath of fresh air after reading Chrysantine's post.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDwarf View Post
    Bugzilla is the best chance you have to have a bug fixed.
    YES ... I certainly don't expect devs to scan forums for bugs ... and I've worked in enough big software shops to understand the role of the bug tracker .

    More packages could be pushed to the main repo (or Contrib). But the extra repositories still have its use (not that a normal user can't be happy with only the main repo), so they will stay. So, since the many repos from OBS will stay there, what fix do you propose? (I could propose one, but I would need a detailed description of what a normal user does and what goes wrong)
    I think this is one of the HARDEST questions. OBS is awesome! And it is organized in a sane manner. I don't know how long Contrib has been around ... but I don't remember it prior to looking at early 11.3 pre-release stuff ... anyway ... mimimizing the probability of a non-technical user wanting to subscribe to repos other than packman and/or Contrib appears to be the current strategy ... and I think it's a good one.

    Wrong, it does. Priorities are at ZYpp level, not at application level.
    Are you saying that zypper maintains it's own set of internal priorities? I would REALLY like to understand why this is desirable. Most of the problems I've encountered personally, as well as helped other's with, stem from zypper and Yast behaving differently. If there is a single system wide prioritization (as it was in the 11.1 timeframe ???) ... the worst of the confusion is simply eliminated.

    No idea how this works, so I can't say if it could be applied to openSUSE. But I suppose that "single package" to be available in the Fusion repo, so here you should ask to Packman.
    I don't think the user level details are too important for this conversation ... but rather that the gstreamer/packagkit integration does work in a very clean and integrated manner; we can observe this in FC13. I don't think there is anything going on that is special to Fedora, but that it's a matter of Fedora staying closer to the upstream gnome code-base, particularly the package-kit/gstreamer stuff. I know almost nothing about KDE on either Fedora or SuSE, but I suspect it uses package-kit as well. The colorometer example demonstrates that the base functionality is present and working. I think it may amount to a matter of quality commitment in the final analysis.

    What's so funny about the answer? You gave a high-level description and Vincent identified the specific part that needs to be fixed... the bug hasn't been closed. It's just that packaging argyllcms would take some time.
    I should have known better than to trust my memory. After following the link you so kindly provided, I realized that I had misread and/or misunderstood the comment Vincent made in the bug report. Sorry Vincent!

    Also, linking to the bug reports you comment is a good practice.
    and makes it easier to check one's memory also ....

    I suppose the biggest question mark is whether or not it's viable to change zypper. Since I remember at time when zypper and yast shared prioritization (or at least appeared to), there must be rational I'm unaware of for the current behaviour. Even without digging into the technical details, I think the package-kit/gstreamer integration is a matter of commitment, at least in the gnome environment. BTW, this is an area where I could be of some real help ... but I am wary to volunteer my labor if there is not a real commitment to actually fixing the issues. And I'm not sure how to go about getting started ...

    The no-brainer that we have not touched upon is the possibility of better coordination with third party packagers ... namely packman.

    Cheers!

  3. #23

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    Are you saying that zypper maintains it's own set of internal priorities? I would REALLY like to understand why this is desirable. Most of the problems I've encountered personally, as well as helped other's with, stem from zypper and Yast behaving differently. If there is a single system wide prioritization (as it was in the 11.1 timeframe ???) ... the worst of the confusion is simply eliminated.
    No, he didn't. Zypper and YaST are applications, zypp (also called "libzypp") handle all the package managment code. If you've found a different behaviour between YaST and zypper, please fill a bug report.

    If you want a "Fusion" like repo, as previously said, don't use any random oBS repo but just stick with main repos + Contrib. Done.

  4. #24

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    Are you saying that zypper maintains it's own set of internal priorities? I would REALLY like to understand why this is desirable. Most of the problems I've encountered personally, as well as helped other's with, stem from zypper and Yast behaving differently. If there is a single system wide prioritization (as it was in the 11.1 timeframe ???) ... the worst of the confusion is simply eliminated.
    "ZYpp" is the system (as APT), "zypper" the command line interface to ZYpp (as apt-get or aptitude) and YaST sw_single module the GUI interface to ZYpp (as Synaptic).
    What I'm saying is that the priorities are maintained by ZYpp, the system (so both zypper and YaST use the same ones). In fact the priorities are whatever there is in the files in /etc/zypp/repos.d/... for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    I don't think the user level details are too important for this conversation ... but rather that the gstreamer/packagkit integration does work in a very clean and integrated manner; we can observe this in FC13. I don't think there is anything going on that is special to Fedora, but that it's a matter of Fedora staying closer to the upstream gnome code-base, particularly the package-kit/gstreamer stuff. I know almost nothing about KDE on either Fedora or SuSE, but I suspect it uses package-kit as well. The colorometer example demonstrates that the base functionality is present and working. I think it may amount to a matter of quality commitment in the final analysis.
    From a QUICK look at it...
    First, this is basically gstreamer specific and so, mostly interesting to Gnome (in openSUSE KDE has its own way since 11.3).
    It seems applications just need to ask packagekit for codecs in a distro-neutral way, so it should work without openSUSE needing to do anything. When we talk about other packages that aren't codecs, that's more distro-specific.

    The only improvement I see in Fedora is that if you don't have the Fusion repo configured you will get redirected to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packa...#Missing_Codec... for openSUSE there is no such redirect.

    But there is an additional problem for openSUSE. If you try to play a file that needs gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly from Packman it will be installed (not sure how the vendor change thing would show here, I never use PackageKit...), ok. But Packman packages the latest upstream version of gstreamer (Fusion packages the same that Fedora does), and my experience is that dependencies are not always well specified... So gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly 0.10.15 perhaps needs the Packman version of libgstreamer-0_10-0 but the openSUSE version keeps installed, in such cases users get "undefined symbols" errors.
    It's great that Packman provides newest versions of multimedia libraries, but it makes the problem more complex. Still, if users inform Packman of such problems it is easily fixed.

    So, once the Packman repo is configured... aren't multimedia apps (Banshee, Totem...) asking for the needed codecs the same way they do in Fedora? (even if perhaps there are problems after that)

    Quote Originally Posted by oxala View Post
    I suppose the biggest question mark is whether or not it's viable to change zypper. Since I remember at time when zypper and yast shared prioritization (or at least appeared to), there must be rational I'm unaware of for the current behaviour. Even without digging into the technical details, I think the package-kit/gstreamer integration is a matter of commitment, at least in the gnome environment. BTW, this is an area where I could be of some real help ... but I am wary to volunteer my labor if there is not a real commitment to actually fixing the issues. And I'm not sure how to go about getting started ...

    The no-brainer that we have not touched upon is the possibility of better coordination with third party packagers ... namely packman.

    Cheers!
    As said I don't see anything to change in ZYpp/zypper/yast about priorities.
    And if multimedia apps aren't asking if you want to install the missing codecs the same way they do in Fedora you can open bug reports, it seems they should. And if it's a general problems ask in the opensuse-gnome mailing list. Perhaps Fedora has patched them (but such patches could be upstreamed)... you can see Fedora patches at [pkgs] Index of /rpms.

  5. #25

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDwarf View Post
    And if multimedia apps aren't asking if you want to install the missing codecs the same way they do in Fedora you can open bug reports, it seems they should.
    Forget that. For this to work Fedora added a patch to rpm that openSUSE misses.

  6. #26

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello again RedDwarf,

    Thank you very much! I definitely want to experiment a little before I attempt further comment. I think it's time to break out the VMWare ....

    Have a great day!

    oxala

  7. #27

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Spyhawk, Redwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyhawk View Post
    No, he didn't. Zypper and YaST are applications, zypp (also called "libzypp") handle all the package managment code. If you've found a different behaviour between YaST and zypper, please fill a bug report.
    Package management is the core technical issue. I find it very difficult to reconcile the statement above, behavior I have observed in running systems, and the statement below from an earlier part of the thread. Might part of the misunderstanding/confusion be a matter of language?

    As for Zypper ignoring repo priorities, I thought this was by design, what with satsolver not allowing vendor change (and therefore repo change) by default.
    That behaviour can be changed back to its 10.x type behaviour though, just a few config file changes, in which case I believe your repo priorities will act just like they used to...
    At any rate ... I will try to generate some clearly reproducible scenarios that we might be able to speak about with greater precision.

    Thanks again,

    oxala

  8. #28

    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Hello again,

    I officially give up on this one .... I just don't want to expend any more effort unraveling the complexities of OpenSUSE's approach to package management, etc. I'm NOT here to perform futile work or be involved in futile politics ... I'm here to have fun!

    So I'll simply state in the true spirit of a soapbox:

    IF OpenSUSE wants to attract new users, if OpenSUSE wants to keep the users it has (like me), OpenSUSE will learn a thing or two from Fedora and/or Ubuntu about what little things actually matter for a new user, and what things really don't matter at all, like super-techno-cool-sat-solver-linguistic-hair-splitting-read-this-10-times-to-play-an-mp3 ........ blah!

  9. #29
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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Judging by your posts, your attitude and general knowledge - nothing lost there. Also, Taral's troll posts were much more elaborate, well generally, than your - you should take some pointers from him/her/it.

    Bye bye, won't be missing you.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: openSUSE, multimedia(aka restricted formats), zypper, one-click, reop#17410, nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysantine View Post
    Judging by your posts, your attitude and general knowledge - nothing lost there. Also, Taral's troll posts were much more elaborate, well generally, than your - you should take some pointers from him/her/it.

    Bye bye, won't be missing you.
    I see you have returned to us after a four month holiday Chrysantine. And with your usual acidic charm. Let's not rev the members too much please........................
    Leap 42.3 & 15.1 &KDE
    FYIs from the days of yore

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