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Thread: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

  1. #1
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    Default Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Save KDE 3.5.10!

    Save openSuSE with KDE 3.5.10!

    Yes my rants continue more than a year running.

    Fix OpenSuSE 11.1 and dump KDE 4.x.x .... some of us want to see 11.1 work; fix it please!!! We don't need or want KDE 4.x.x. !!!!

    I need to move beyond OpenSuSE 11.0 on my primary desktop. For my notebook computers, and for one of the kid's computers; yes I will use OpenSuSE 11.2. For the systems where I have to have two monitors.... 11.0 and 11.1 work. 11.1 in my opinion isn't as good as 11.0; when it comes to juggling multiple monitors.

    SuSE Studio is a great idea and maybe it should be the tool we focus on to roll our own OpenSuSE distributions?

    Until KDE 4.x.x or KDE 5.x.x grow up and can equal the functionality of KDE 3.5; there isn't a practical reason why 3.5 should be abandoned. It's bad enough that some of my peers who need to use multiple monitors are moving to Debian and *gasp* Windows 64bit versions *cough*.

    I tried the 11.2 core and with installations of XFCE and Gnome. I then added the 3.5 repository and attempted to use KDE 3.5 with my individual setup. It looked great until I had to tweak the monitor setup to work with a KVM switch. I "need" the KVM switch to access other systems: OMG... FAIL! I try to fix the details using aticonfig --??? command line options, FAIL!!! So I can't use command line options because of RandR 1.2... no krandr... xrandr... adjustability with KDE 3.5 in 11.2. What is this: I "have" to install KDE 4.x.x in order to adjust dual-head modes inside KDE 3.5? This leads to other issues with other individual KDE 3.5 centric applications. Regardless I install KDE 4.x.x and cross my fingers and toes: try the KDE 3.5 setup and applications and it FAILS!!!!

    As a side note: a co-worker who's in the same boat comes over and we mess with it. I end up having to install the corporate OEM addition of XP 64bit we have just to function. That works and I'm at least able to get things done while I mess with OpenSuSE. Later I go over to my pal's place of work and there are three monitors setup with two added notebooks all sweetly interacting like a Swiss watch: Debian 5.0 and Windows XP 64bit. I hadn't even thought about setting up a: Third monitor... but now I'm getting that itch. I'm use to using two notebooks, two monitors, and the KVM switch to bounce between dedicated work stations and servers. This three monitor thing looks great. I don't know how it's pulled off because I've never tried to setup 3 monitors on a single workstation in Linux. I'm told it can be done with openSuSE 11.0; but the process is a pain in the butt and may require a third video card if integrated video fails.

    I'm assuming that more and more people are beginning to find themselves in situations where they need to use multiple monitors for more than one reason.

    I know that as of KDE 4.2 there has been a great improvement with the multiple monitor issue. Regardless the groups pushing KDE 4.3.x or KDE 4.4.x can't seem to address some of the simplest of presentation issues:

    1) With more than 4 desktops .... there is the silly issue of the desktop names reverting to the defaults.
    2) We still can't apply separate desktop settings: ie. back ground pictures, to seperate monitors.
    3) The switching of monitor assignments is a little more serious. I'm told that doesn't happen in Ubuntu with KDE 4.2.x ... but I can't confirm this and don't have the time to research the details. Regardless I won't use Ubuntu. I might use Debian but I'll never touch Ubuntu again.
    4) Some KDE 3.5 centric applications just don't function properly in 4.x.x.
    5) KDE 4.x.x, might as well be Vista to me..., the candy is nice and yes I like it... but it just doesn't match the functionality and feel of KDE 3.5.x

    KDE 3.5.x for all practical purposes killed Windows XP for me. I'm sure KDE 3.5.x helped many people divorce themselves from Windows. KDE 4.x.x really can't practically compete with Windows XP now... *gasp* XP 64bit can out work KDE 4.2.x now. It can be demonstrated. I haven't seen Windows 7; but I assume it must have more functionality if my employer, who is a big UNIX weenie, is saying good things about it.

    I didn't have to have Windows installed on hardware with OpenSuSE 11.0. I could live with Windows in a virtual machine. At least Microsoft can thank the KDE 4.x.x team for forcing me to "have" to install a 64bit version of Windows XP for work. My employer wanted to know if I needed a version of Windows 7 64bit? I said: No!, to that offer. I might have to buy a couple of cases of beer for co-workers who have offered to help get my station setup with Debian 5.0. I made a bet 3 years ago that I could live without Debian and stick with SuSE. I might have lost a bet; but I'm "not" going to deploy an Ubuntu on "my" station. That's a matter of honor.

    So a community of developers has decided that KDE 3.5.x has to die. Well... that's too bad because there is an expectant audience that has needs out there which that community can't seem to understand or address. The question beyond that might be: can a distribution answer the challenge and help that development community by offering it's audience choices while that development group manages to make it's new product as good as the old product?

    That's not too hard a challenge it is?



    PS. I'm still in shock that I've "had" to install a version of Windows to do work. KDE 4.x.x. shame on you! Now don't make me go out and get an Intel Mac! *gasp* Yes my rants regarding KDE 3.5.x will continue regardless of what distribution I have to functionally use.
    " If you don't play a sport, be one! " Quote from: Max Jackson

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    In short; no.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    and who is going to maintain this monstrosity of codebase? You?... good luck with that...

    Stop bashing on KDE4, we all know you don't like it so find something you like and use it. Many other desktop environments are available

    It's time to bury kde3 and move on. If you disagree, go back to Windows

  4. #4

    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Yes but personally I am sort of with the OP in still favoring KDE3 over KDE4.
    Its more from a functionality standpoint, I still see KDE4's apps still lack many features I liked in KDE3.

    Hey flashy effects are one thing and functionality is another and as it stands for me KDE3 still has some functionality I miss in KDE4.
    Last edited by hendersj; 11-Dec-2009 at 13:41. Reason: T&C Violation
    https://features.opensuse.org/308357

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Chrysantine some where explain it very well talking about XP.
    Its true, KDE3 was good... but we cannot stick with it forever. We have to move on. KDE4 is the way to go. Its time to move on...

    KDE4.3.4 is enough mature now, and i am sure when it will reach to KDE4.4 OR KDE4.5 it will the same good as KDE3.5 or more.

    Agree with microchip8, bury it and lets move on.
    OR, if you really want to keep it, just install it from repos and use it without maintenance.

    BTW, there is a distro which still offer KDE3.5 with default desktop. which is one that. PCLinuxOS?
    Looks like:

    http://pclinuxos.com/?page_id=180
    Linux[openSUSE, KDE], PHP, MySQL, Wordpress, Tech News, etc :
    http://anl4u.com

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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Quote Originally Posted by TaraIkeda View Post
    Yes but personally I am sort of with the OP in still favoring KDE3 over KDE4.
    Its more from a functionality standpoint, I still see KDE4's apps still lack many features I liked in KDE3.

    Hey flashy effects are one thing and functionality is another and as it stands for me KDE3 still has some functionality I miss in KDE4.
    you two don't understand at all the maintenance and software development/testing/debugging/auditing processes and burden it puts on. Do you expect a team of roughly 50 people who are core developers to maintain a combined codebase (KDE3+KDE4) of millions and millions of codelines and then every single piece of KDE libs/programs which are part of the core KDE base to go debug/test/audit for security reasons? Not to mention that many devs do it in their spare time and don't get payed at all. It's very easy to be an observer and moan and ***** about it. Start doing this yourself and let me watch how fast your mind will change. Besides, the API of KDE3 and its codebase is in many places very ugly and inextensible. A rewrite of many parts is the only sound solutions for these cases and if someone goes for it, don't expect it overnight to happen

    Also the code is fully open source so whoever wants to pick it up is more than welcome to do so and further develop/maintain it. Don't expect this from the core team. The guys already have a lot of pressure to deal with and the only thing guys like you two do is punt even more on top of it by *****ing and moaning about something you got for free

    Lets see when gnome3 comes out and how many wouldn't like it. will you also start moaning about maintaining gnome2 simultaneously since some don't like the new one?
    Last edited by hendersj; 11-Dec-2009 at 13:42. Reason: Removed quoted T&C Violation

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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Well if there ever is a fork of OpenSuSE I hope it is a complete
    break out of KDE. Then the team could focus on support of KDE3.5.x and KDE4
    as opposed to KDE4,GNOME,XFCE and others. I don't suspect that is going
    to happen though unless enough people get tired of dragging around these
    other desktop environments which only contributes to overall bloat of the
    distro...as mentioned in other threads. If there is anything to like about
    Ubuntu it is the carving up of these environments. The benefit of the SuSE
    model is that it seems all of the desktops receive a high standard of work,
    something that sometimes Ubuntu branches seems to lack. Ultimately I don't
    know what the correct answer is. It would seem that the 'shoebox' method
    cannot last forever. Eventually it'll have to ship on Blu-Ray due to size.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Quote Originally Posted by microchip8 View Post
    you two don't understand at all the maintenance and software development/testing/debugging/auditing processes and burden it puts on. Do you expect a team of roughly 50 people who are core developers ....
    Actually... one of the reasons some of us use multiple monitors is to step through code, debug, and run applications right there beside the code as we work. Even more fun doing that while monitoring system states, the data sets driving the applications, and the data repository as it evolves real-time.

    It's even more fun to play World of War **** on a monitor while waiting for something to break, knowing it will; but not knowing when. Knowing something bad will happen though the course of an 18 hour server baby sitting session. I thought my kids needed baby sitters.

    Bah!!! Get a rack of servers; practice for parent-hood!

    Functionality and stability are great when you're using some applications. Candy is no replacement for functionality. This doesn't have to be personal but it does have to be practical! Practically KDE 4.x.x can't compare functionally to KDE 3.5.x. That is a "FACT!" It's the Truth!

    Here come the KDE 4.x.x thought police... with the flame throwers. *Dialing up Gnome fanatics* Help!!!!

    Last edited by hendersj; 11-Dec-2009 at 13:43. Reason: Quoted reference to T&C Violation removed
    " If you don't play a sport, be one! " Quote from: Max Jackson

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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    Why are you talking about candy, dude? Where in my post do you even see something about candy? The KDE devs have clearly stated this and let me make it big so it'll get in your head once and for all

    They do not have the power to maintain two huge codebases at the same time no matter how much you moan about. They also have clearly repeatedly said that KDE3 is a DEAD END, both from technological point of view and from extensibility point of view....

    Many don't like the Windows default environment, yet no one goes moaning at MS to provide alternatives and millions are stuck using it, whether they like it or not. In Linux at least you have a gazillion DEs you can choose from and if one doesn't do it you switch with ease to another. There are other shells for Windows but most people have no clue they exist in the first place, let alone know how to handle them


    Get a rack of servers? Do you realize I'm a sys admin at a Belgian embedded Linux company, yes? I'm also involved in various software projects. You are going to educate me how one debugs code, audits it and does maintenance and how many monitors one uses/needs? Are you going next time to teach me how to click on icons or move my mouse? Get a reality check. Fact is, all software needs improvements and it often happens that the thing one needs at a point in time is just not there and it won't be able to magically be there the moment you need it, especially for huge projects like KDE.

    What is so nonfunctional in KDE4 that prevents you from being productive? Do you think that one needs to have a gazillion knobs and options in each single program or else he can't be productive? You need a gazillion ways of tweaking a text editor for example before you start writing code or something else? You also seem to completely miss the fact that setting up monitors can't be blamed alone on KDE4. It's Xorg underneath that's **** and often is responsible for bald guys you see walking on the streets with a few ticks in their faces

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fork openSuSE save KDE 3.5!

    GofBorg <GofBorg@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> writes:

    > Well if there ever is a fork of OpenSuSE I hope it is a complete
    > break out of KDE. Then the team could focus on support of KDE3.5.x and KDE4
    > as opposed to KDE4,GNOME,XFCE and others. I don't suspect that is going
    > to happen though unless enough people get tired of dragging around these
    > other desktop environments which only contributes to overall bloat of the
    > distro...as mentioned in other threads. If there is anything to like about
    > Ubuntu it is the carving up of these environments. The benefit of the SuSE
    > model is that it seems all of the desktops receive a high standard of work,
    > something that sometimes Ubuntu branches seems to lack. Ultimately I don't
    > know what the correct answer is. It would seem that the 'shoebox' method
    > cannot last forever. Eventually it'll have to ship on Blu-Ray due to size.
    >


    The availability of so many great esktop Environments in openSUSE is one
    of the things that sets it above the likes of *buntu.

    The 'bloat' you speak of doesn't really exist as you don't HAVE TO
    install more than one Desktop Environment.
    I don't know if you've looked at the openSUSE installer, but it gives
    you a great deal of customizability, that can only be beaten by a bare
    bones install, with everything added manually (e.g. Arch).


    --
    Regards,
    Barry Nichols

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