Page 3 of 20 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 191

Thread: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangement

  1. #21
    palladium NNTP User

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangement

    > - have a great out of the box experience and the overall nicest
    > initial OS experience I ever remember, but live every day with a
    > package management system that isn't up to what I experienced under
    > Ubuntu.


    due to the FREE nature of Linux, there is at least one other option
    available to you:

    - have a great out of the box experience and the overall nicest
    initial OS experience I ever remember, and using the open source from
    Debian, develop/hack a clone of the entire Debian Package Management
    system which looks/feels/act exactly like what i like BUT interacts
    flawlessly with the openSUSE repos...and/or also can pull from
    Debian/RH/Ubuntu etc etc etc.. :-)

    btw: the "great out of the box experience" is nothing more than a not
    so very important MARKETING gimmick dreamed up in Redmond USA because
    they knew that very soon AFTER their sought after "great out of the
    box experience" their customers were gonna have that "BSOD experience"
    or "virus killed my machine experience" or "gotta reinstall again
    experience" or "member of a botnet experience" or "i sent a virus to
    all my friend experience" or "my keystrokes were stolen and my bank
    account was hacked experience" or "all of my documents disappeared
    experience" or "another $300 to 'upgrade' experience" or "what, the
    new Word has a new incompatible with the old format? experience" or or
    or or

    --
    palladium

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Phuket, Thailand
    Posts
    26,565
    Blog Entries
    38

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainX View Post
    The more I use openSUSE 11.2, the more I love it. Today, I tried another highly recommended KDE4 distro, and while it was nice, I immediately recognized that the excellent integration and refinements SUSE includes are very much to my liking. openSUSE is nearly perfect for me in every way -- except one. The package management continues to leave me baffled.

    I was hoping I would eventually learn to like it as much as Synaptic, aptitude/apt-get and the other tools on Debian-based distros. But the more I read, the more I am questioning whether I will ever like it.

    For example, see this:
    Package Managers in Linux
    That article seems to sum up my own (rather limited) experience perfectly.
    Getting back to the thread subject, ... that article is a poor example to quote. The date of it is January-2008. As any openSUSE user can tell you, an openSUSE effort to improve the package management starting in openSUSE-10.1 backfired, and it was an unmitigated disaster. There was even a second release of openSUSE-10.1 to address some of the problems, which is mostly not heard of in the openSUSE distribution. Since then, in every openSUSE release, starting with 10.2, there have been incremental improvements in the software package management.

    But it does mean there are a lot of Linux users who do not use openSUSE, who still have a bad taste in their mouth about the openSUSE software package management fiasco of some years back, who have never spent to the time to check and bring them selves up to date on the current state of openSUSE, and who instead pontificate on out of date information, and write well worded articles that are full of inaccuracies.

    Definitely a January 2008 article assessment, does not address the openSUSE software package management of today.

    What would be more helpful, would be to state what one prefers in debian, and then compare that to what openSUSE's zypper/yast software package management (together with easily installable package management tools for openSUSE such as "smart" (which I use with zypper/yast)), and then make a comparision.

    Its possible many of the features you miss in debian are in yast/zypper/smart, and you simply were not aware of them. And its also possible there are some features that openSUSE has yet to adopt, but have been identified for future releases. And its also possible there are some features that openSUSE does not have, nor has any plans, but it should.

    But unless specifics are mentioned, it is very difficult to address such a general post, other than to say that we disagree. Which leads to a "yes x is better", "no y is better", "no x is better" type thread, which helps no one and leads to flame wars.

    I think all of us would rather move things forward technically, and propose things that could be improved in the openSUSE rpm based system.

    MountainX, in case you were not aware of the URL, here is one giving some insight into zypper: Zypper/Usage/11.1 - openSUSE

    and if you are curious about smart, which works well in conjunction with Zypper/YaST, here is a URL there: Package Management/Smart - openSUSE

    ... and finally, given the large amount of changes that have taken place in openSUSE software package management since January 2008, I urge you to make your assessments on something other than an article that is out of date (not to mention is subjective with no facts).

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,825
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Hi MountainX.

    Let me first welcome you to openSUSE. I see your intro has been a bit rough. I'll get to that in a bit. I hope you'll be wise enough that similar personalities exist everywhere, not just here.

    Now to the issue at hand. It seems you come from a debian/Ubunto background. That's great. Now to switch over to an rpm distro and in particular openSUSE, you need to be patient with the changes.

    As to the statement you made, you could have said it a lot better. I do understand package management. I was writing a book on one in particular and got to 65 pages. The package manager I was writing for was developed by the same people that developed apt and synaptic. The package manager I was writing for was smart package manager.

    Now if you compared apt to zypper, your statement would be more accurate. But even then there are issues. Things you don't understand. That's ok. One of the big reasons for dependency issues on rpm distros is there are so many variations and subsequently each distro packages their own rpms and their own little scripts. Ubunto and mint and so on are all based on Debian, so it uses Debian packages and debian scripts. The dependency issue due to distros is eliminated on the Debian side.

    To really understand though, you need to understand dselect and dpkg and apt for the debian side, and rpm for the rpm distros. Most experts tend to agree that zypper is much better than apt or yum. Zyppers main competition came from smart package manager. Zypper won that because smart package manager is in python. Break python and your package manager is broken as well.

    You can read my book here Smart Package Manager I cover the history of rpm and deb and so much more.

    Basically to change openSUSE to debian would be a major change. Scripts would change, and so would the package management.

    Please, if you have more questions, ask.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________
    Don't ask "if" something can be done, for it can always be done. Rather instead ask "How" can it be done.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Delta Quadrant
    Posts
    1,442

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangement

    GACK! I can't stand deb based systems.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Podunk
    Posts
    26,864
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangement

    Quote Originally Posted by GofBorg
    GACK! I can't stand deb based systems.
    or ian based systems IMHO apt-go-away

    --
    Cheers Malcolm (Linux Counter #276890)
    SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.27.29-0.1-default
    up 10 days 22:37, 3 users, load average: 0.79, 0.52, 0.40
    GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - CUDA Driver Version: 190.18


  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Delta Quadrant
    Posts
    1,442

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangement

    >
    Quote Originally Posted by GofBorg
    GACK! I can't stand deb based systems.
    >

    > or ian based systems IMHO apt-go-away


    I would like to comment further but I find myself unable
    to focus on any one thing for arguments sake, my objections
    are just so vast when it comes to GNOME/deb. So I'll
    just conclude with SuSE FTW!

    Yah that's real mature. :-D






  7. #27

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    MountainX, in case you were not aware of the URL, here is one giving some insight into zypper: Zypper/Usage/11.1 - openSUSE
    First, I would like to thank oldcpu for this link. I had no idea of the power of zypper. I left openSUSE back during the package management fiasco and in that time I learned the debian package management system (apt/aptitude/synaptic). Now that I've returned to openSUSE, I see that zypper does indeed have the power of apt/aptitude.

    @MountainX - having been on both sides, I see where you're coming from, but it does work both ways (at least it did in my perspective). When I first left openSUSE and began learning Debian based distros, I very much preferred YaST and RPM. That's kind of ironic considering that was the reason I left openSUSE to begin with. However, over a period of time I learned apt and synaptic and began to appreciate its power. Today I'm very comfortable with it. Now that I've returned to openSUSE, my initial thought was "if only openSUSE had the Debian package management system" (much like you). But as I hung around these forums and asked a few questions, I began to realize that zypper definitely has its merits too. As for dependency issues, I've run into just as many dependency circles in Debian as I did in RPM, so it's not just an RPM thing. You might be interested to hear that zypper even has a dist-upgrade function just like apt and aptitude.

    About the friendliness (or lack thereof) on forums, I've run into that on just about every forum I've visited. I belong to the forums of openSUSE, Debian, pcLinuxOS, and Mepis (to name a few), and every one of those has their share of bad apples, but overall the forums are very helpful and friendly. Debian forums have the reputation of being rude, but I was quite surprised that when you look past the few rude individuals, the rest of the community is pretty friendly. Give us a chance. I'm sure you'll end up liking us after all.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    A place with no mountains
    Posts
    280

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Thanks everyone for the educational answers. These are the kind of responses I was hoping for.

    It seems that I unintentionally pick the absolute worst titles for my posts. The more clever I think my title is, the worse job it does of conveying the point I hoped to convey.

    My "unclever" titles are even worse!

    I probably should have said something like "Convince me that package management in openSUSE can be as good as what I'm used to in Ubuntu." Of course, that title would probably give the impression that I wasn't reading or trying to learn anything on my own. So, even in hindsight, I have no skill at writing titles!

    I was certainly looking for a counter point to the articles I had been reading that said package management in openSUSE is poor. And that's exactly what several kind folks did on page 3 of this thread. (Thanks pontke, Jonathan_R, oldcpu, smpoole7, and others.)

    In regard to the forums, this article just made Reddit today:
    5 years later, 5 ways that Ubuntu has made Linux more human - Ars Technica

    I have to say that I have more appreciation than ever for the importance of item #1 of those 5 points.

    I remember something I learned a long time ago (and that I should practice more!). It goes like this: Say I am selling X and a guys comes in and says, "I like Y. X sucks." An effective response is to say, "I know how you feel. I felt that way too. However, I found that blah blah blah..." And provide useful info. This is called feel-felt-found. It is simply a communication skill. This formula is not part of the Canonical code of conduct (afaik) but people do that all the time in the Ubuntu forums.

    And as it turns out, that is exactly what pontke did in post 27, and it was highly effective. It was useful for me to read that perspective. It was educational. That's the kind of response that wins supporters, IMO. So thanks for that.

    I do believe the Ubuntu forums are better than many people recognize, although it is sometimes true that when the questions start getting more sophisticated, the quality of answers is sometimes subpar. But persistence usually results in a good answer eventually (and with the size of the community, eventually is often fairly quick). I have noticed problems with answers a more as I gained in knowledge over my two years of using Ubuntu. But I am also sure that I would not even be using any Linux distro now if not for the extremely helpful attitude on those forums. In my first days on Linux, any friendly attempt at help mattered more to me than whether or not that answer immediately solved my problem. An attempt at help allowed me to learn and move forward (even if in a zig zag).

    In my mind, the Ubuntu code of conduct is the #1 reason Ubuntu has so much mind share now. (And thinking about this code reminds me that I am not proud of some of my earlier reactions in this thread to someone who was probably having a bad day.)

    Does anyone care what I've been up to the last few days? I'm not sure if it matters really, but I'll put it out there.

    After page 1 of this thread, I (reluctantly) went looking for other distros. (That was not my intention when I made my initial post! And I wish I had received the posts on page 3 before I went looking.) But I found sidux and I've been playing around with it. I feel completely at home with the Debian package management and I really like having those vast repositories available. With sidux, I'm back to feeling like I have a moderate level of proficiency at using my computer for the things I need to get done.

    However, not everything is all roses. For example, the sidux installer does not handle my needs for LVM inside encrypted partitions. Installing sidux with my partitioning requirements demands that I read some quite detailed instructions (sidux doesn't use ubiquity or the Debian installer) and I found it difficult to even get the time to read through it due to my work schedule. So that was an immediate barrier. The installation was not trivial. Whereas with openSUSE, this complex partition setup was indeed trivial and it was done entirely in the installer. That's just one example. I am still far from having the sweet setup I had so effortlessly with openSUSE.

    My next step will be to read the material on zypper provided in the helpful posts above. I can't say what my next move is. But I can say that it is obvious this community has some great members who are willing to help even when a guy like me writes a post that comes across poorly.

    Not only do I see that the forums here are good quality, I already have a better understanding of package management in openSUSE just from the posts above. So, overall, my feeling is again in the positive direction. Thanks!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kaunas, LT_lt
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Ubuntu and Opensuse were distros, that I've been using most frequently. And always I ran into problems with Opensuse, but rarely with Ubuntu. Yes, I know, it is not Ubuntu good, it is Debian's achievement. Ubuntu just doing things to work out of box without any strange things, that I sometimes met in Opensuse. In 11.1 I couldn't burn even a CD - I wasn't in right group, so I had to go to YAST and manage that. C'mon guys, CD-ROMs are in use quite a long time and this is dekstop oriented distro, unless it is orienting only into computers without CD-ROM drive. I had problems with gstreamer-plugins-bad:
    gstreamer crashes apps... - openSUSE Forums
    https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=519737
    Also annoying. Like a week ago I heard in irc.freenode.net #suse , that gstreamer was updated, and this should be fixed some time ago.
    I found also ugly bug with hal. Couldn't mount digital camera. Like it was automounting, then autounmounting, or something like that. In #suse I was trying to find way out, but decision was, that it will be too hard for me, writing of scripts, also probably my knowledge of english is not sufficient enough (well, it is not my native language). So it probably required not desktop user, but programming user hands.
    These are the bugs that I remember (there were more). I found YAST not very good while sorting dependencies, zypper probably better. Now I'm using Mandriva 2009.1. But waiting for 11.2 final, I hope I'll use it, if it is free from annoying bugs I will not disagree with you, that technically Opensuse is good distro - probably it is, and probably you can prove that, but bugs, segfaults (maybe I'm unlucky). Well, maybe this try will be better.
    Just my two cents.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Phuket, Thailand
    Posts
    26,565
    Blog Entries
    38

    Default Re: SUSE would be perfect if it used Debian Package Mangemen

    Quote Originally Posted by algyzas View Post
    These are the bugs that I remember (there were more).
    Indeed openSUSE has its share of bugs. But in defence of openSUSE I have to note that we do encourage our users to raise bug reports in such cases. And often (not all the time, but often) we get the attention of the packagers and sometimes developers, in getting the bugs sorted.

    For example wrt sound, Novell/SuSE-Gmbh packagers for sound are also alsa developers, and a bug report raised on openSUSE sound benefits all of Linux, and the fixes get sent upstream quickly. I can't say the same for Ubuntu/Debian where often the fixes langish, and indeed sometimes never leave Ubuntu/Debian to go upstream. To me that is a betrayal of the Linux open source free software community goals and for that reason alone I will never use Ubuntu (until a proven effective change to that Ubuntu/Debian problem is in place). I've read talk on this but its simply not there yet, and I see the proof all the time in watching sound fixes for Ubuntu/Debian that do not make it upstream.

    Indeed, I could go on and on and on about the litany of complaints from Ubuntu users about their sound, ... and about other problems they have. I subscribe to the Dell Linux mailing list and the number of Ubuntu specific complaints there are significant. Far more than I ever remember encountering with my use of openSUSE Linux.

    I guess I want to point out there are 2 sides to a coin. IMHO openSUSE is better than most distributions when it comes to fixing problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by algyzas View Post
    I found YAST not very good while sorting dependencies, zypper probably better.
    I believe this to be subjective. I believe its the SAME SOFTWARE for both that resolves the dependencies. Hence if it is the same software, there should be no differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by algyzas View Post
    Now I'm using Mandriva 2009.1. But waiting for 11.2 final, I hope I'll use it, if it is free from annoying bugs
    There WILL be bugs in openSUSE-11.2 GM. IMHO if you wish to have the best openSUSE-11.2 GM experience, without waiting too long, then you should wait until Feb-2010 or March-2010 before you install it. Typically with EVERY distribution, and openSUSE is NO exception, in the first 2 to 3 months after a new release there are a mass of new bug reports, as the distribution is finally exposed to the "masses" and gaps in the testing become apparent.

    What I do to ensure I am not disappointed by a major lapse in openSUSE functionality is TEST openSUSE alpha/beta (now milestone) releases against a list I have of functions/applications that are important to me (on a sandbox PC). And I ensure those function, and if they do not I write a bug report as soon as I can. And then I do a clean install on my PCs when I am ready for the new release after my successful testing.

    I had Fedora (with Gnome) on my sandbox PC for almost a year. I installed Fedora about 3 months after its release data, to allow some time for bug fixes to be applied. In the end I removed Fedora because it was simply not up the user friendliness standard that I expect and I get from openSUSE (with KDE3). I also found the Fedora forums slower in helping than the openSUSE forum. I also tried Sidux (a debian install) just recently, and while I am a BIG Sidux fan, it lacks the ease and friendliness that I have learned to find and get from openSUSE.

    But the bottom line is all of these are very subjective. Very very very subjective. You noted you use Mandriva. IMHO you should stick with Mandriva. Do NOT install openSUSE-11.2 when its first released, but rather wait some months for the bug fixes to come out (as I noted above). Else you risk making a judgement of openSUSE at an inappropriate snapshot timeframe.

    And getting back to the subject of this Thread, I still believe it would helpful if users would list what they think is superior in Debian package management over the yast/zypper/smart/ because my recent Sidux (debian) experience left me with a strong preference for openSUSE's yast/zypper/smart over Debian's apt/synaptic.

Page 3 of 20 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •