To correctly answer Microsoft users

English Open Chat
1

Linux is supported by real users offering real help through forums like this one. Microsoft on the other hand provides you with a paid for operating system with 30 to 90 days of support but reserves the right to limit the help they will provide you.

Linux does not force you to upgrade your hardware, programs, or Operating system. The option is there if you wish but on your own time schedule. Windows has an EOL (End of life) policy whereby you are convinced their next best system with new hardware must be adhered to.

Multiple Linux versions and Windows versions can co-exist on the same system whereas Microsoft does a search and destroy of Linux boot loaders in an attempt to force you not to use anything but their’s.

New Microsoft versions require you replace the entire system inclusive of apps and may result in total data loss during the upgrade. Linux versions can share the same partition and can be upgraded keeping both programs and settings in most cases.

Linux is true multi-user multi-tasking whereas Microsoft products at best imitate this behavior.

Linux can read and write it’s own partitions as well as Microsoft based ones. The same can’t be said of Microsoft.

Many standard GPS, Cell Phones, PDA’s ISP’s and Web Servers use Linux and other Unicee’s, the same can’t be said for Microsoft unless you count SYNC used in Ford Automobiles.

Microsoft uses it’s power leverage to force hardware manufacturer’s to only produce drivers for their operating system. Yet Linux has numerous hardware compatible drivers for all kinds of hardware. Many programmers are actively trying to develop drivers and persuade Manufacturers or release information about their devices.

Microsoft takes the approach that their operating systems are finished work but need to immediately install patches and fixes and service packs. Linux tells the trueth, no operating system is ever 100% complete as there is always going to be new issues new demands and unique new devices or inovations.

Microsoft is running toward a methodology of pay per use so they can achieve their claim that they own your system and you have paid the expense of buying the hardware with pre-installed windows operating system in order to have the right to use the hardware. Linux is founded on the principal that you own your hardware and you are free to use paid for or free software at your descretion.

any other thoughts??:wink:

2

Wrong, all Linux distributions have their EOL policy and none of the free (as in beer) ones have a life time comparable to Windows versions (perhaps except CentOS which is not aimed at desktop use at least primarily).

Windows XP is still officially supported and was released in 2001 IIRC, do you know any “desktop linux” from 2001 still supported?

(No, RHEL, SLES/D don’t count…)

New Microsoft versions require you replace the entire system inclusive of apps and may result in total data loss during the upgrade. Linux versions can share the same partition and can be upgraded keeping both programs and settings in most cases.

Also wrong.

  • You can upgrade Windows to the next version without data loss

  • Data loss on upgrading linux to the next version can also happen

(Of course in most cases it’s the users fault, especially not creating backups before upgrading, no matter which OS we’re talking about.)

  • A correct upgrade with a linux distribution will also (of course!) upgrade all applications with a newer version

In fact linux will certainly more often force you to have a new version of an application, due to upgraded dependencies, which comes completely obvious regarding the shorter development cycles of free software compared to proprietary software (release early, release often).

3

After 10 years of linux usage my answers have been simplified to just one:

I use linux because I want to, you use windows because you see no alternatives.

This avoids endless discussions, throwing with figures from all kinds of sources. No talks about big things like freedom, security etc.

4

One of the smallest (an by that nicest) ways to get to the point.

I agree, especially if those numbers and facts are plain wrong like in the first post.

The only reason I even cared about answering is that I don’t think one should answer FUD and incorrect facts (uttered by MS frequently) by also using FUD or incorrect facts.

In german we have an expression for that called “jemandem einen Bärendienst erweisen” (word by word translated “to conduct a bear’s service to somebody”), meaning to help somebody but doing more harm than good by your actions.

(AFAIK, this is derived from a fable, where a bear and a gardener meet and decide to live together as both of them are lonely.

One day the gardener takes a short nap outside and the bear sees a big fly landing on the gardener’s face.

In oder to free him of this annoyance, he throws a huge rock after the fly killing not only the insect but also his friend).

5

To clarify, When you have a Windows distribution and it reaches EOL, and it crashes, as of XP you may no longer install it on your hardware as you can no longer register the copy to work. With Linux, you may if you have the install CD/DVD’s re-install on the same hardware indefinately and alternate hardware as long as the alternate hardware is supported by the version.

To clarify; With Microsoft, you get a basic operating system, with few real applications. Thusly; you have to have each app you need and re-install that app independantly if you re-install. If you upgrade which is usually a bad thing, it keeps some settings if your lucky, but often apps you were using no longer function correctly and require removal and upgrading on an individual basis. With Linux, you can have multiple versions on your Linux partition even older ones. True sometimes you need to improve your hardware for a new version. That being said, there is a big difference between individually downloading and installing one app at a time and simply letting the Linux package handler upgrade necessary libraries and apps.:stuck_out_tongue:

After some 35 years of working with systems of all types and handling the shear number of issues from all walks I’ve seen more than my share!

6

But most of the linuxes out there do have relatively good lifespans, even though its not as long as Microsofts cycles most modern distros are leaning toward a more predictable release cycle.
Actually I prefer Linux’s planned scheduling, having predictable release cycles is what keeps me using linux.

Not when I updated from ME to XP, lost everything

  • Data loss on upgrading linux to the next version can also happen

(Of course in most cases it’s the users fault, especially not creating backups before upgrading, no matter which OS we’re talking about.)

I have not experienced much data loss personally from Linux to Linux though, but i have encountered mission critical loss with XP when going between the service packs.

  • A correct upgrade with a linux distribution will also (of course!) upgrade all applications with a newer version

Obvious

In fact linux will certainly more often force you to have a new version of an application, due to upgraded dependencies, which comes completely obvious regarding the shorter development cycles of free software compared to proprietary software (release early, release often).

Yes but having predictable updates and having a time period to work with does have its advantages, it does ensure that applications work for that version and no major bugs are encountered.
Sometimes updating software in any OS can cause severe damage, I have bumped into this in both OS’s.
But much less in Linux, for me updating linux has been a smooth process.

7

There are also forums like this one for Windows. And openSUSE is also sold with a 90 days installation support… I don’t expect it to be better or worse than the support provided by Microsoft for Windows.

Already answered.

You can’t blame Microsoft for not wasting time adding ext3 support to NTLDR and adding a detection of other systems to the installer when these other system have a really low market share. Nowadays isn’t common, but for some time a distro installer could overwrite the boot loader without adding entries for other Linux distros or Windows.
Supposing malice here is gratuitous.

Already answered.

Technical arguments should be a lot more detailed. And must include sources.

Well, Windows provides the infrastructure to add new filesystems support as “plugins”, a good thing from Microsoft. They don’t develop themself support for every existing filesystem? Well, that’s probably because most of its user don’t need/ask for it.

This argument is really flawed.
If many gadgets use Linux that probably means Linux is a good option for these gadgets, yes. But if you continue using the same logic (you can’t change it for your interest whenever you want), Windows is used in most desktop PCs… so that logic says Windows is the best option for desktop PCs.

For a hardware developer to put the “Certified for Windows Vista” logo in its products it must support the standard USB profiles. That means that digital cameras, MP3 players, webcams… and virtually anything that is connected to a USB port will work in Windows, Linux, Mac and any other OS without installing extra drivers.
That is “force hardware manufacturer’s to only produce drivers for their operating system”???

The fact that they release these “patches and fixes and service packs” isn’t by itself a sign that they do not “take the approach that their operating systems are finished work” (whatever that means)?

Yes, and Hotmail will start to be a pay service, I read that in an email I received from someone.
In any case, whatever Microsoft can do in the future is a problem users will have to deal in the future… for now they don’t need to worry about this.

I agree with Akoellh, this list is just FUD.
And you can share whatever personal experiences you had with Linux/Windows… that doesn’t means anything. You need a big sample for the conclusions to be representative.

8

Multiple Linux versions and Windows versions can co-exist on the same system whereas Microsoft does a search and destroy of Linux boot loaders in an attempt to force you not to use anything but their’s.

I well remember my first attempts at installing linux, destroying the mbr and rendering the system (even the HDD itself) unuseable for any but an expert, and a reformat/reinstall of jolly old windows became necessary. Grub has IMHE been flawless in this regard, but loadlin/lilo caused many a destroyed OS in the past. (Of course, they weren’t actually destroyed but were rendered useless, and they also diverted many interested parties away from Linux.)

9

I agree with much of your post, but here I have my suspicions. Hanlon’s Razor and all, but up to a limit.

As far as I’m aware the Windows XP CD is incapable of setting the boot flag the system it installs requires to be able to boot.

Why on earth would you leave this out, if not to make it more awkward to multi-boot?

[dons tin-foil hat…]

10

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:46:02 +0000, Akoellh wrote:

> Windows XP is still officially supported and was released in 2001 IIRC,
> do you know any “desktop linux” from 2001 still supported?
>
> (No, RHEL, SLES/D don’t count…)

Sure they do; you’re talking about a commercial Windows release, so
commercial Linux releases are actually a better apples-to-apples
comparison.

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

11

clairvoyant now are you. How do you know that this is the case?
Xp has not EOLed yet and you can not say that is the case

there is a big difference between individually downloading and installing one app at a time and simply letting the Linux package handler upgrade necessary libraries and apps.:stuck_out_tongue:

How so? the windows installer (demoshield,installshield, windows installer, ect…) do the same thing. And what happens if you install an app from source? What is the package manager that will install those dependencies for me?

I think you just to get your facts strait.

Is Linux better then Windows? NO
Is Windows better then Linux? NO
They are both just pieces of code, that’s it, nothing more.

here is a better argument. Blue is the best colour out there. It’s Free, I can use it for as long as I want. It has to be the best, the sky is blue, the ocean is blue. On the other hand Red is terrible, blood is red and you only see that when bad things happen or you “see red” when you are angry, things that are “red hot” can burn you. Nothing good is red.

12

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:36 +0000, tom enos wrote:
…
>
> I think you just to get your facts strait.
>
> Is Linux better then Windows? NO

What!? Linux has a penguin… can’t believe you missed it.

> Is Windows better then Linux? NO

Agreed… no penguin.

> They are both just pieces of code, that’s it, nothing more.

A penguin is not code.

13

No clairvoyance! Feb 28 2009 Microsoft had scheduled EOL of XP on both Home and Professional versions. There was a public outcry and Microsoft decided to extend the life of Windows XP Home edition until April 16th 2009. All stores were given orders to no longer sell copies of XP Home edition as of Jan 31st 2009. Windows XP Professional sales were to stop by April 16th.
Current user may continue to use their XP versions on the original hardware where it was installed and they can even use the repair feature if it works. However if they do a clean install or change their hardware, attempts to re-activate XP Home will fail! This is both from the Microsoft site and dozens of systems I have had the misfortune of being called to fix. As of November 2009 attempts to re-activate XP Professional will fail under the same circumstance. Microsoft will continue to support XP for security patches and bug fixes until 2014 but in their own words “this does not constitute support for users”.

Windows upgrading, upgrades only the operating system. It tries to keep the settings but this seldom works as the newer op system usually has requirements which aren’t in line with older applications. There is no package management like under Linux. This means that Windows doesn’t know what apps won’t work until you try to use them and they fail. Windows does not magically go out and get the updated versions. Then there’s the apps that don’t get installed through the registry or through the fancy windows installer. These too must be manually removed and reinstalled. So I am not Wrong Thank you.

Linux Distro's are the full operating system, plus 100's to 1000's of applications and utilities which Yast does know how to upgrade if their installed. If you choose to use source packages and compile them obviously it is your responsibility to spend the time on upgrading that part.

Now to those others who have told me to get my facts strait and offer proof of anything I say, be careful what you ask for because this is supposed to be a friendly forum. I could ask you people to prove yourselves and your answers.
14

techwiz03 wrote:
> [snip]
> Current user may continue to use their XP versions on the original
> hardware where it was installed and they can even use the repair feature
> if it works. However if they do a clean install or change their
> hardware, attempts to re-activate XP Home will fail! This is both from
> the Microsoft site and dozens of systems I have had the misfortune of
> being called to fix. As of November 2009 attempts to re-activate XP
> Professional will fail under the same circumstance. Microsoft will
> continue to support XP for security patches and bug fixes until 2014 but
> in their own words “this does not constitute support for users”.
>
Got any links? I have been unable to find anything verifying that
activations will cease anywhere on the web or even Microsoft’s site.

15

It’s been a while since I have visited their site or googled for this stuff (I usually only do it when a customer wants answers)
but here is what I found
Windows Life-Cycle Policy

  • Life cycle policy became active Oct 15 2002

  • Service Pack roadmap: Updates and fixes will be via service packs until EOC (end of cycle)

  • version Sales to reg user begins OEM & Purch ends System builder ends
    Windows XP Home Edition December 31, 2001 June 30, 2008 January 31, 2009
    Windows XP Professional December 31, 2001 June 30, 2008 January 31, 2009
    Windows XP Prof. x64 Edit. April 25, 2005 June 30, 2008 January 31, 2009

  • Service Pack support on Windows product is 24 months

  • Mainstream Support delivers complimentary and paid support, free security updates, and bug fixes to all Windows customers who purchase a retail copy of Windows XP (i.e., a shrink-wrapped, not pre-installed copy). Mainstream Support for Windows XP will continue through April 2009.

  • Extended Support delivers free security updates to all Windows customers. Customers can also pay for support on a per incident basis. Extended Support for Windows XP will continue until April 2014. New bug fixes require the Extended Hotfix Support program.
    ** they specifically don’t mention pre-installed support because most users buy OEM pre-installs
    which do not have support.

  • There is mention of a downgrade option for Windows Vista but only for Windows Vista Business and Ultimate.

How to activate Windows XP

  • Windows creates a unique installation identification (ID) that is based on information from the product ID and a hardware identifier that are created when you install Window XP. To activate, use the Windows Product Activation wizard to provide the installation ID to Microsoft over the Internet or your phone line. The installation ID records an association of the product ID to your computer and a confirmation ID is sent back to your computer to activate Windows XP.
    Problem: You change the partition of a drive, this changes the ID identifier for the harddisk
    resulting in activation problems. Microsoft needs to be called for these issues as it is seen under the EULA rules to be an illegal copy. My experience with Microsoft regarding these issues before April 2009 was favorable on XP Home, Prof, and x64. After April 2009 Microsoft refused OEM pre-installs, refused XP Home, refused XP x64, and refused for non-business XP Prof.
    Problem: You replace the harddisk on the system, this also changes the ID identifier so see the
    last problem.
    Problem: You re-install with different hardware than the what came originally with the machine
    and once more the identifier doesn’t match the original identifier at Microsoft. Same
    result as the first.
    - Activation is anonymous, and no personal information is required to activate. The installation ID records an association of the product ID to your computer and a confirmation is sent back to Microsoft. You can then use the product key to install Windows on that computer an unlimited number of times. However, if you want to install Windows on a different computer with that product key, you may have to contact a Microsoft customer service representative.
    Problems see above
- Activation is required in 30 days from the first day that you start Windows XP.

Message Board: Windows XP
- Microsoft Windows XP OEM licenses will be End of Life (EOL) on January 31, 2009. However, Microsoft has loosely extended the deadline to help distributors by offering a “flexible inventory program.” System Builders will still have to purchase Windows XP licenses before January 31, 2009, but they can have them delivered in segments until May 30, 2009. After that (unless there are new extensions from Microsoft), OEM Windows XP licenses will no longer be available for purchase from authorized System Builders.

- Which versions have downgrade rights?
The OEM vesions of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate include downgrade rights to Microsoft Windows XP Professional, Microsoft Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, and Microsoft Windows XP Tablet PC Edition.

Customers may not downgrade to Windows 2000 Professional from Windows Vista Business or Windows Vista Ultimate.

Customers may not purchase Vista Home or Vista Home Premium and then downgrade to XP Pro or XP Home. Customers may not downgrade to Windows XP Home no matter which version of Vista is purchased.

If you would like to learn more about the downgrade process, please visit Microsoft's Web site here. (Microsoft Link is dead! "Page not on this server")

Windows XP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Non-use by end-user

In the event that an end-user decides that they do not wish to use a preinstalled version of Windows, Microsoft's End User License Agreement (EULA) provides that the software may be returned to the OEM for a refund. Despite refusal of some manufacturers to honor the entitlement it has been enforced by courts in some countries.

http://www.microsoft.com/KB.../activation
Microsoft has announced they are considering offering a activation deactivate r sometime after the release of Windows 7 in November 2009 due to a public outcry mainly from businesses that rely on the XP to service their company requirements. While the activation issue is still under review, it is unlikely, reactivation will be available to every user of the XP product line.

Does this help?
Regards
Rick

16

so according to every thing you posted, Windows XP is EOLed now and you can no longer activate it NOW.

and that microsoft search link is really scary, not one reference to not being able to activate windows after EOL

well here is my proof that I am right
WikiAnswers - Why is blue a better colour than red
Is the color blue better than red? - Yahoo! Answers
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/science/06color.html
see I got the nytimes, yahoo, and a wiki to make my point

dang,
wait I just found your proof in a nostradamus quatrain

The new barque will go on voyages

The monster divine omen will be seen in plain daylight

It will be seized and plunged into the Vat

At Easter in the temple abysses opened

I read it and it’s as plain as day your right, I’m sorry I didn’t see it your way

now I fell like had a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent and lost

dang you nostradamus, rotfl!

17

techwiz03 wrote:
> [snip]
I found all the stuff in the beginning from Microsoft’s site But didn’t
see it mention not allowing activations.

> ‘Windows XP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia’
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP)
> Non-use by end-user
>
> In the event that an end-user decides that they do not wish to use
> a preinstalled version of Windows, Microsoft’s End User License
> Agreement (EULA) provides that the software may be returned to the OEM
> for a refund. Despite refusal of some manufacturers to honor the
> entitlement it has been enforced by courts in some countries.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/KB.../activation
> Microsoft has announced they are considering offering a activation
> deactivate r sometime after the release of Windows 7 in November 2009
> due to a public outcry mainly from businesses that rely on the XP to
> service their company requirements. While the activation issue is still
> under review, it is unlikely, reactivation will be available to every
> user of the XP product line.
>
> Does this help?
> Regards
> Rick
>
>
This is interesting and worth looking into more I believe. I hadn’t
heard that this “may or may not” happen, thanks for pointing me in the
right direction.