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Thread: Delta RPMs for testers?

  1. #1

    Default Delta RPMs for testers?

    Has this been discussed, on the mailing lists or somewhere? I wonder whether it would actually *decrease* the servers' load.

    If you install the live CD and update from factory once a week or so through the whole development cycle, that's got to be in the 10s of gigs of total downloads, per tester. Goodness only knows what it'd be for the DVD.

    Presumably the deltas are created automatically, without input from the packagers, so it's basically just a question of choosing to enable it.

    And I realise that this isn't, in a sense, the optimum way of testing, because you aren't testing the installer for each milestone. But it has to be accepted that many people will test this way - and more would, to the advantage of the SUSE project, if the download totals weren't so nutty.

    Has anyone actually run the numbers, to see if it's feasible?

    And on a peripheral note, what the heck is content.key? Losing it once or twice would be forgivable - but this is starting to look like carelessness.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
    ...update from factory once a week or so through the whole development cycle...
    Hope calculations aren't based on that wild assumption.
    ...But it has to be accepted that many people will test this way - and more would, to the advantage of the SUSE project, if the download totals weren't so nutty.
    Says who? On what evidence?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Erm... Whose calculations? Why is that a wild assumption? How often should one update, as a tester?

    Granted, I have no idea what proportion of testers update from factory, rather than reinstalling milestones, but I suspect it's a fair few - and that seems to be the way most distros do it. And its uncontroversial that more people would test, if there were less downloading involved... isn't it?

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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
    Erm... Whose calculations? Why is that a wild assumption? How often should one update, as a tester?
    Any calculations (if any are to be made). You cannot be testing milestones by weekly testing between milestones, can you? You cannot reach a milestone inbetween milestones -- by definition. In between milestones, you don't know what the hell you are testing. Why does a distro tester need to update between milestones when the status of a factory repo is indeterminate? Think about the problem of reproducing bugs.

    Granted, I have no idea what proportion of testers update from factory, rather than reinstalling milestones, but I suspect it's a fair few..
    How many is a "fair few"?

    And its uncontroversial that more people would test, if there were less downloading involved... isn't it?
    Not necessarily. A guess is bound to be controversial.

    Having said that, I am always in favour of reducing the size of downloads, but I also like to get my money's worth from the ISP.

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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Whether there are 10 users or 10,000 users running test builds, delta-RPMs save bandwidth and are a good idea in general.

    I really think openSUSE should consider going with Courgette in the future.

    Software Updates: Courgette (Chromium Developer Documentation)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Any calculations (if any are to be made). You cannot be testing milestones by weekly testing between milestones, can you? You cannot reach a milestone inbetween milestones -- by definition. In between milestones, you don't know what the hell you are testing. Why does a distro tester need to update between milestones when the status of a factory repo is indeterminate? Think about the problem of reproducing bugs.
    I'm testing the new packages. What should I be testing?

    Sure, you have to reinstall before you file a report, because a bug could be spurious (in many ways I think that - or at least discussing it on the forum, is good practise anyway). But that happens - sometimes the updates break it, sometimes the milestones won't install. That's testing, and it's worked OK for me. Maybe I just got lucky?

    How many is a "fair few"?
    ...
    Not necessarily. A guess is bound to be controversial.
    ...
    How about I start with "more than 0", and we can haggle from there?

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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Correction:
    You cannot be testing milestones by weekly testing of updates between milestones, can you? You cannot reach a milestone between milestones -- by definition. In between milestones, you don't know what the hell you are testing. Why does a distro tester need to update between milestones when the status of a factory repo is indeterminate?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by consused View Post
    Correction:
    You cannot be testing milestones by weekly testing of updates between milestones, can you? You cannot reach a milestone between milestones -- by definition. In between milestones, you don't know what the hell you are testing. Why does a distro tester need to update between milestones when the status of a factory repo is indeterminate?
    Well, firstly, if you wanted to upgrade using deltas only on release of the milestones, you could do. They could plaster a great big "Upgrade or you'll miss it!" sign at the top of the forums, and leave us to our own moral responsibility.

    But if I'm reading you right, what you seem to be saying is that they shouldn't do this because they would increase the number of spurious bug reports (or perhaps put off testers).

    That may be so, but it's an empirical question, isn't it? It will also probably add to the number of people starting testing (and therefore the number of good bug reports), so it's a question of which factor balances out heavier.

    All I'm saying is they could try it, with suitable "If you upgrade between milestones, it might well break" warning signs, and see what happens.

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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
    I'm testing the new packages. What should I be testing?
    Are any new packages introduced between milestones? Or did you mean package updates. Why bother, unless you know exactly what the packager has changed? In any case you were originally talking about milestone testing e.g.
    And I realise that this isn't, in a sense, the optimum way of testing, because you aren't testing the installer for each milestone.
    But that happens - sometimes the updates break it, sometimes the milestones won't install. That's testing, and it's worked OK for me. Maybe I just got lucky?
    No, that's not really testing, that's just "suck it and see". Enjoy it by all means, but please don't call it testing.

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    Default Re: Delta RPMs for testers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
    Well, firstly, if you wanted to upgrade using deltas only on release of the milestones, you could do.
    It's a nice idea, as in the case of the cleaner release of milestones 2,3 and 4. For the last two milestones it seemed to take several days and into the weekend to fully populate factory repo(s) with a monday announcement. Is this the shape of future releases, with fewer resources? The images are more determinate for downloading i.e. there or not.

    But if I'm reading you right, what you seem to be saying is that they shouldn't do this because they would increase the number of spurious bug reports (or perhaps put off testers).
    Yes, impossible for devs to reproduce bugs. Yes testers may be put off by frustration.

    It doesn't follow that Increasing the number of testers will increase either the number of bug reports or the quality of them.

    If they had time, they could try it.. The caveats/disclaimers are already explained IIRC in the links on the wiki where the milestones are announced.

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