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Thread: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting stupid

  1. #21
    frijolito NNTP User

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Good points too, oldcpu. My comments:

    We are not interested in seeing Linux world domination, as opposed to the "just work" users who often seem to use that as their prevailing argument (ie if Linux wants wider acceptance, it need to "just work"). Eliteness? No. Definitely NO.


    Well, that's a fact, not users' opinions. The way for Linux to gain wider acceptance is "regular users" not being annoyed by it. It stems from the simple fact that the vast majority of PC users are technically clueless and will remain that way, whether we want them or not.

    Now, you may feel that wider acceptance is not a goal that Linux should aim for. That it's an OS exclusively (or mostly) for the innards-divers and the hackers amongst. And as with any opinion, you are entitled to have and defend. But my opinion is that it's an elitist opinion; it smacks a bit of the "chosen few" who are able to hack it. I feel open source is for everyone, as e.g. science is, and that everyone is able to (and should!) benefit from it even if they don't possess a natural curiosity or understanding. Knowledge wants to be free, and it wants to benefit all of mankind, not only the smartest among us.


    Reference the moral obligation to listening respectfully to users' concerns, however poorly specified? Yes, in general. But listen to insults? How far? ... I think many of those responding on this thread were insulted by the first post, and they responded in kind.

    OK, I read again the original post to look for the insulting parts. I have to say I didn't find anything insulting per se, other than the liberal use of the f-bomb. The guy was clearly angry and frustrated, but didn't call linux a POS for example; he even indicated many times that it's superior to what he's used to. He did speak angrily about the stuff that upset him, such as permissions problems; again, imho that's a limitation of the user interface and not of his ability. Give the guy a break, we've all been noobs and we've also been raging mad at stuff we still don't understand very well yet. And re: "each user expressing frustration via insults has their view", well in truth I didn't see it in the OP's rant. I may have missed something, but I just don't see what is so insulting. Maybe it's the tone, and I'll give you guys that, but no respect lines were crossed I think.

    One thing I do agree with most here is that this user, as others we've doubtless encountered, doesn't seem to be interested in learning how linux works. And that can be irritating too, because how can someone dare to use something when they're not the bit interested in at least gaining a cursory knowledge of the thing they're using?

    My point is that I think that irritation (the one we feel when someone shows no curiosity or interest) is a bit self-righteous. Not everyone is like us, you know. Nor are they obligated to be. Most end-users only want to turn on their PC and surf the web and work on their documents, maybe even play a little or listen to some music. If stuff doesn't work they don't want to have to fix it. And just because they didn't pay a penny for the software doesn't mean they have to be happy with what they got. Think of the guy(s) who developed XMMS, for instance. Would he want people to have to jump through hoops to use the software he wrote and lovingly gave away for all to use? I think he'd want folks to just be able to listen to their music. If hoops have to be jumped, that's a limitation of our software (ours, as in the OS community) and not of the users.

    And Chrysantine, it's hard to read your comments without becoming inflamed. I was called out by an admin for my first post. In any case your tone is patently offensive, and I have to say that it was your arrogance that motivated my signing up. You're probably trolling; I mean, faux-apologizing for irritating someone is clearly a provocation. In any case I'll bite and will respond to one thing: you said you're not morally obligated to "do jack". That's where I'll disagree: all of us are morally obligated to show respect and support to our fellow human beings, even if they're not like us or share our views. And that's what's at the core of our disagreement. I feel all of us are obligated to show empathy, I believe in respect and a moral code, and I can only hope you do too.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito
    In any case your tone is patently offensive, and I have to say that it was your arrogance that motivated my signing up
    *tear* Wish you hadn't signed up - you hurt my feelings. Really.

    Funny that you should comment on arrogance - perhaps a review of your own posting would be in order? Mmm?

    As for the rest, I do more daily to 'help the system' than you will ever - I suggest you take your hypocritical attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine.

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito
    That's where I'll disagree: all of us are morally obligated to show respect and support to our fellow human beings, even if they're not like us or share our views
    Not really - I have no obligations to treat people who do nothing but moan with respect.

    When the op does something constructive and contributes to the system or stops crying and starts learning, then I'll give him the respect and help that he is due - until then he can go ride the short bus.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    But my opinion is that it's an elitist opinion; it smacks a bit of the "chosen few" who are able to hack it
    I agree with most of your post, except two points:
    • any use of the fbomb is insulting. Very very insulting, and
    • your use of elite is IMHO wrong.

    You see, I was brought up with the understanding that elite refers to something that is "the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons", or it is "persons of the highest class" (thats from a web dictionary and it matches my understanding).

    I don't consider myself in that category. I don't consider my friends who know more about Linux than I (but of whom many share a similar view) elite.

    We openly admit that Linux is not always the best in doing some functions. Hence by the definition of elite, we can't be elite if we (and our favourite OS) are not the best. We all will agree the Mac Interface is mostly more user friendly (even though I for one can't stand it) and since the Mac is more user friendly, that means the Linux interface is not the best and hence we as Linux users are not elite since we don't claim to have the best.

    No, what we are is a group of people who like to UNDERSTAND what goes on. We don't want big brother dictating to us how the interface should be. We don't want a specific, purportedly friendly way of dragging and dropping forced upon us, with us having no recourse but to accept it.

    We believe in openSource. We believe in the Free Software Movement. We listen to Richard Stahlman, although we probably do not agree with all of his views. And we take what tidbits we think are applicable from his dissertations, and we try to apply them in our use of Linux.

    We are not elite.

    But we are free thinkers. And we tend to be non-conformists. Which tends to have insults thrown our way at times by the non-believers who like the Mac or Windows way of doing things, and who want to force those ways upon us.

    Anyway, this IS a soapbox, and thats my rant on this. ...

    Hopefully not insulting, but it does show my view, the view of one average Linux user (and NOT a developer nor a hacker) who has been using Linux since 1998.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    No, what we are is a group of people who like to UNDERSTAND what goes on. We don't want big brother dictating to us how the interface should be. We don't want a specific, purportedly friendly way of dragging and dropping forced upon us, with us having no recourse but to accept it.
    I guess what I really should say is I think that the "elistists" are the ex-MacIntosh and ex-Windows users who try to mold Linux in their view.

    They have an elite view of how a PC should be on their MacIntosh and Windows way and they don't care about openSource, nor do they care about Free Software (per the open software foundation definition). They care about world domination of their chosen OS "of the moment", and they want Linux to fit their elite mold. ... at least mold it until they jump ship and try another OS (which they are inclined to do).

    You know, I do not know one Windows user who does not use pirated software. Not one. None!

    But I do know a number of Linux users who do not have pirated software.

    Now you may call those Linux users elite. I don't.

    You would be amazed at how many power point attachments my 82-year old mother has sent to her as email attachments, sent by MS-Windows users. These are presentations that are clearly made at home for home consumption (ie not appropriate for the office). These MS-windows users expect everyone to be able to open the attachments. How? With what application? My mother can see the attachments with open Office, but the audio plays poorly (although it does play). She complained and asked why? I told her most Windows users illegally use MS-Power Point on their home PCs. She was surprised. But its true. Isn't it? How many Windows users do you know who have illegal copies of MS-Power Point ( or other MS office apps) on their PC ? Copies made possible by "elite" Windows pirates, or by their own elite dishonesty.

    On the other hand, Linux uses have a honesty, and a belief and understanding of open source free software in the Linux OS. We try to setup up the OS to be consistent with that view.

    I want to keep this on an even keel, but I sense a total lack of understanding of the political and emotional aspects of free software and opensource. Those who don't understand, call it elite, because they can't understand, when if they only looked at the mirror, and saw their own elite OS views that they are pushing (often by insults and the fbomb), they would realize they are totally off the mark (and wrong).

  5. #25

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    I guess what I really should say is I think that the "elistists" are the ex-MacIntosh and ex-Windows users who try to mold Linux in their view.

    They have an elite view of how a PC should be on their MacIntosh and Windows way and they don't care about openSource, nor do they care about Free Software (per the open software foundation definition). They care about world domination of their chosen OS "of the moment", and they want Linux to fit their elite mold. ... at least mold it until they jump ship and try another OS (which they are inclined to do).

    You know, I do not know one Windows user who does not use pirated software. Not one. None!
    Very nicely put!

    Even a company which tries to comply with licensing runs into issues, the guitar string maker Ernie Ball being one example Guitar maker plays a Linux tune though there's a webpage around with interview with Ernie Ball, which gives better flavour of the hurt and victimisation felt by being singled out.

    Unfortunately MS backed off from sue-ing most of their customers, and realise that piracy helps ensure their market dominance, so like DRM it's the honest who are punished.

  6. #26
    klwilcoxon NNTP User

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Yeah right, "most of us here can get suse set up in 20 minitues". That's the point . . . you're all GEEKS. Normal people don't put up with the hassles you consider play.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Yeah right, "most of us here can get suse set up in 20 minitues". That's the point . . . you're all GEEKS. Normal people don't put up with the hassles you consider play.
    Reply With Quote
    Geek is a very subjective (outside-looking-in) term. Whenever something looks complicated, involves a steep learning curve, and usually patience to learn (often by making mistakes), it would be easy to describe it as 'for geeks' rather than do the work to learn. However, this forum (as well as many others) is full of posts by members providing or receiving help successfully with hardware or software problems. Thats the real difference - being able to hang in there, and achieve the possible.

  8. #28

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by klwilcoxon View Post
    Yeah right, "most of us here can get suse set up in 20 minitues". That's the point . . . you're all GEEKS. Normal people don't put up with the hassles you consider play.
    Doesn't this sound like an Astroturfer rather than someone who actually ran a Live CD and tried installing.

    Astroturfing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Boycott Novell 66 Pages of Microsoft Evilness

  9. #29
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by robopensuse View Post
    Doesn't this sound like an Astroturfer ....
    Astroturfer ... theres a new word for me. ... I had to follow your link and look that one up !!

  10. #30

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    I've seen it used, everyone knows about trolls, but the Astroturfers are more organised.

    Organised response is good, where it is fact based, but very insidious where it is done to perpetuate myths, and distort fair and balanced reporting. Weight of numbers encourages group or herd think, which overwhelms factual points.

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