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Thread: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting stupid

  1. #11
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    You know, I should feel sorry for you. However I just can't find it in me to do so. You say you just expect things to work. Why would anyone own a car, and not know anything about how they work? Likewise why have a computer, if you are not willing to understand how they do things?
    I get frustrated too. I looked at this forum this morning to get some information about installing suse myself.I am having some problems getting it installed properly on my older PC. I have it running on my new laptop, and everything is working just fine. Not that I didn't have some problems at the start. It took me exactly two days of "tinkering" to get up and functioning like I wanted it.

    Like you I am a "user" not a geek. I use my computer for certain tasks that suit my personal interests. I came here not once, but probably five or six times and read what others had posted, and asked questions. Only then, did I figure out what I was doing wrong, and fixed the problems. You claim you are a "web designer". Well if in fact you are, then you had to LEARN how to do that. Likewise if you are going to use an OS you have to learn how to use it as well.
    I vent myself, when I get frustrated. I also realize that my frustration comes from my own inability to understand why something doesn't work. So if you don't like it, try something else. But by all means don't blame the OS for your own ignorance of how it works!>

  2. #12
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Search the forums for your troubles, the answers might be in here someplace. That's what I do, ask and search for stuff.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting stupid

    Kenny1948 wrote:
    > You know, I should feel sorry for you. However I just can't find it in
    > me to do so. You say you just expect things to work. Why would anyone
    > own a car, and not know anything about how they work? Likewise why have
    > a computer, if you are not willing to understand how they do things?

    Ummm.....the majority of the car owning world must bother you since most
    people only know how to pump gas and drive (and that one they don't do
    that well). Most people can't even change a flat, trust me as an ex-tow
    truck driver.

  4. #14

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Wow. This was an interesting couple of pages. I expected the learning curve when I made the decision to jump into Linux. I used the LiveCD of Ubuntu and OpenSuse, and decided upon the OpenSuse. I installed the Gnome, and now have asked how to uninstall it, so I can reinstall with KDE. (Maybe that will be able to find my sound card!)

    As for the security issues, I have not had any troubles. Maybe I don't have the settings set properly. Hummm... When I enter YaST I have to use my password. That is a good thing. Are there other security issues? Ah yes, that learning curve.

    David

  5. #15
    frijolito NNTP User

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Wow. Such hostility and arrogance in this thread.

    Look guys, the OP just wanted his installation to "Just Work". Why shouldn't he be able to expect exactly that without having people label him a troll or "feeling sorry for him"? Going with that guy's car analogy, does he feel sorry for the vast majority of the car-driving people of the world who have no clue how a car works other than pumping gas and maybe a little oil into it? Why should they bother to learn something if they don't want to? They presumably learned to do something else, obtain a medium of exchange for doing it (money, mostly), and then use that to obtain goods they can't build themselves, like cars, or the services of people who know other stuff, like a mechanic.

    Look, as a certified geek (CS major, 10-yr linux user, overall nerd) I understand the point of view of the tinkerer: we are usually flabbergasted to see that people just don't share our healthy curiosity for how the world works, machines, physics, all of it. And often we are also resentful of those who don't because they are usually the majority and some bad apples like to have fun at our expense. So we lash out, and label them as inferior, make fun of them in return, make ourselves as superior in our minds.

    But here's the thing: They are not inherently inferior because they don't care to learn. I know, that's a hard reality to have to come to grips with, mostly because we have come to define ourselves mainly by our curiosity and desire to learn and ability to fix and understand and tinker. They're just regular folks like us with problems and passions and the difficulty of having to decide what to do with the little time we have left when we're not trying to keep ourselves fed and clothed. Some decide to geek out and learn, others dance, while others chase members of the opposite sex. And who is to say who is more right than the other? As long as no harm is being done to anyone, every person has the right to do as they wish, without being criticized for it.

    OK sorry for this longish rant, but some of the comments here rubbed me the wrong way; because attitudes like these are the reason most regular folks are turned off from the fascinating and embracing world of free software. Don't you realize that's the whole point? Inclusion! Freedom! Sharing of knowledge! Sharing. Giving people the ability to do what they want with the computer, even if they have no clue how to program or how to use a CLI. I detect a basic lack of humanity toward others in these attitudes, and that is just a messed-up worldview.

    I only hope the OP isn't turned off from Linux by these posts, and that he finds a community that is welcoming of him even with his ignorance and cluelessness. Because we were all newbs once.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    OK sorry for this longish rant, but some of the comments here rubbed me the wrong way;
    Presumeably not all comments rubbed you the wrong way. Is it fair for you to generalize against all who posted? . ....

    Reference the unkind comments, sometimes users will deliberately reply in kind (with the same tone) to a post they consider unreasonable. Some might say yours is a case in point.

    As long as there are no insults (and this thread is starting to follow a very fine line) then we let the thread run. That is especially true in the "soapbox" area.

    But I ask everyone to please, in our soapbox area, be mindful of the rules.

  7. #17
    frijolito NNTP User

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    Presumeably not all comments rubbed you the wrong way. Is it fair for you to generalize against all who posted? . ....

    Reference the unkind comments, sometimes users will deliberately reply in kind (with the same tone) to a post they consider unreasonable. Some might say yours is a case in point.

    As long as there are no insults (and this thread is starting to follow a very fine line) then we let the thread run. That is especially true in the "soapbox" area.

    But I ask everyone to please, in our soapbox area, be mindful of the rules.
    Fair enough. Like I said, some of the comments were irritating, and I don't think I generalized "against" all posters but I hope I didn't offend anyone because that was so not the point.

    I've already mentioned the commenter who said he "should feel sorry" for the OP, also someone even labeled him a troll. For venting. Maybe even I'll be labeled a troll too, but if you read my words you'll see I'm not trying to provoke, at least not angry emotions but rather insight.

    I spoke about not being mindful of others, and I may have committed that same mistake in attempting to point it out. If anyone took offense I apologize. But realize that the OP came here with a legitimate concern, and with a long rant which was just venting, and IMO he's actually in the right: why should he be forced to learn a bunch of stuff he's not interested in atm? Linux should Just Work, and if it doesn't it's not the user's fault but the developers'. And as the support community, we have the moral obligation of listening respectfully to users' concerns, however poorly specified they may be.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    Fair enough. Like I said, some of the comments were irritating, and I don't think I generalized "against" all posters but I hope I didn't offend anyone because that was so not the point.
    Oh no, did we irritate you? I'm so sorry. Oh wait, I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    why should he be forced to learn a bunch of stuff he's not interested in atm?
    Why should we idly watch his crying? Because he's a new user who has contributed absolutely nothing to anything yet he feels he's entitled to cry about every single detail.

    Did he pay for Linux? Unlikely. Did he contribute something? Definitely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    Linux should Just Work, and if it doesn't it's not the user's fault but the developers'.
    A very narrow view. If you're not interested in knowing or understand anything about the operating system or software you're using, you have no right to complain about them either.

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    And as the support community, we have the moral obligation of listening respectfully to users' concerns, however poorly specified they may be.
    I don't have the moral obligation to do jack. I help people because I wish to give something back that they've given to me for free, this does not include people who come and go as the wind.

    If a persons first post on forum is one where he does nothing but cry I will treat him in much the same manner as he has seen fit to treat us.

  9. #19

    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    But realize that the OP came here with a legitimate concern, and with a long rant which was just venting, and IMO he's actually in the right: why should he be forced to learn a bunch of stuff he's not interested in atm? Linux should Just Work,
    The OP knows how things should work! Just how he thinks is "right", shown when he writes "I can beat XP into submission in 20 minutes". No suggestion that he had any open mind, appreciating basic computer security.

    Someone who tries something new, with the mindset that it must do exactly what he thinks is right, has a problem, and it's not the new OS flaws (which they all have, yes even MacOSX and Windows 7++ Pundit special version).

    Linux cannot work for someone who stubbornly, tries to go against the best working practices of the system. Folk have to accept that it's impossible to please everyone. Also suggesting someone is 'trolling' is hardly hugely offensive, after they've written a huge FLAME.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: I really wanted to use suse..but this is just getting st

    Quote Originally Posted by frijolito View Post
    Linux should Just Work, and if it doesn't it's not the user's fault but the developers'. And as the support community, we have the moral obligation of listening respectfully to users' concerns, however poorly specified they may be.
    You make some good points.

    Reference "Linux should just work" , thats a true comment for all OS. Some are closer to that than others, but there are some things working against that wrt to Linux.
    • typically when something is created that purportedly "just works" it had to make compromises along the way, and force users down a specific path. That forced approach can infuriate some people. I had a friend spend over an hour trying to show me the mac and how things "just worked". He gave up with disgust with me, because I was pointing out things just "DID NOT" work. They only worked if one followed a VERY SPECIFIC drag and drop sequence. If one could not guess that sequence, nothing happened. Often no feed back. Nothing. Well I hate that, and I much prefer Linux, with all its quirks.

      My point? Linux (contrary to the "just works MacIntosh " ) appeals to a different type of user. The "just work" users are often more comfortable with a Mac. And thats fair game. But the "lets hack" users often prefer Linux. And many of us like it that way, and don't agree with the "just work" philosophy. We are not interested in seeing Linux world domination, as opposed to the "just work" users who often seem to use that as their prevailing argument (ie if Linux wants wider acceptance, it need to "just work"). Eliteness? No. Definitely NO. But likely the ability to dive in the innards and hack? Yes. Most definitely YES.
    • Reference the moral obligation to listening respectfully to users' concerns, however poorly specified? Yes, in general. But listen to insults? How far? ... I think many of those responding on this thread were insulted by the first post, and they responded in kind.

      The users on this forum (including the moderators and admins) in the most part are not paid. They are volunteers. They have frustrations at work during the day. They go home at night and can have frustrations at home. So in a perfect world they will put up with all kinds of forum insults. In a perfect world they will reply nicely to the most insulting user. BUT, in practice, that does not happen. Often people are people, and responses are given in kind.

      So while I agree with you, I think I have a more philosophical view that these things happen, and to simply agree to freely take insults by frustrated users, to freely let users insult the dev's (when in fact the poster is technically wrong), is not an acceptable approach any more than insulting back in turn. Being quiet to incorrect views that are given in an insulting manner is not a correct approach. Neither insulting approach is good. So what do we do? Lock and delete the first insulting post ? No. Delete or Lock all of the reply posts in kind? ... No. Not all. ... its a fine line to draw, ... and a difficult line at that. Each responding side has their points. Each user expressing frustration via insults has their view. How far do we let it go ?


    But really, the bottom line is we definitely appreciate everyone's input. And as you note, in different words, its VERY IMPORTANT that we try to get along.

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