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Thread: GNOME is better than KDE

  1. #31

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by bela42 View Post
    The KDE project does more and more lock up themselves in a wagon ring. "Users are irrelevant" is the more polite way they deal with those nasty "Lusers" complaining.
    I've seen very rapid bug fixes go in, and developer's being very interested in actual specific issues.

    See KDE 4.2.0 Release [LWN.net] comments for one example.

    "Posted Jan 28, 2009 10:18 UTC (Wed) by lmurray (guest, #56356) [Link]
    Thank you for (Indirectly) informing us of this bug. I have made the change to current trunk and will backport it to KDE 4.2.1 shortly.

    If you come across any more keyboard-unfriendly actions feel free to open a bug report on http://bugs.kde.org ."

    There is an enormous difference between getting software wrong -- all software has bugs -- and deliberately misrepresenting your product to get extra beta testing.
    They didn't misrespresent the product. They made it very clear, you just needed ears to listen.

    I don't care anymore...
    Probably whining causes developer's not to care either. They're not there to be someone's psychoanalyst, and many users behave pretty poorly and excessively emotionally in ways that don't help resolve bugs or get fetures done.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by VorianGrey View Post
    The thing with 3.5.10 is it's support days are numbered.. Fairly soon users are going to have to move to something else.
    2 years of support. Thats enough for me.

    Within two years we will be looking at KDE-4.4 and based on my playing with KDE-4.2 (on a live openSUSE CD), I think 4.4 will be awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by VorianGrey View Post
    I just made my decision early on by moving to Gnome so I hopefully wouldn't have to move again any time soon.
    Fair enough, although 2 years is a pretty far horizon to me. Everyone has their own definition of "soon".

    Quote Originally Posted by VorianGrey View Post
    Even when I favored KDE, I always found it clunky,
    I was about to say the same about Gnome, but did not consider it tactful. However, since you brought it up first .... Gnome IS clunky in appearance.

    Typically I just use the desktop I am happy with, and only comment on another desktop when I am pushed to provide support (for example in audio) in a desktop that I don't like (and gnome's current pulse audio implementation is bad ... its simply just bad) or I find an anti-KDE comment simply wrong.

    However having typed that, I still believe this entire desktop thing is very subjective.

  3. #33

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    However, since you brought it up first .... Gnome IS clunky in appearance.
    For me, "GNOME is clunky."

    It's not the appearance that's the problem. It's the sheer number of extra points, clicks and mouse moves you end up making. Slapping a thick layer of makeup, to distract from the core lack of ergonomic features, and then saying, oh but it looks gourgeous does nothing for me, though I have seen many ppl happy enough with that approach.

    Fair enough to give a very basic simple interface to new users, the problem was there wasn't a way to get more. The issues with not exposing Printer options was one symptom.

    Old GNOME 1 used to crash quite a lot, they moved against that, had the corporate Useability types in, and became very "fit in or get out" as a reaction. On the GNOME lists they talk freely about how stale and dull, it's all got as a result.

    Some GNOME users, have claimed that KDE is more Windows like, IMO actually the opposite is true. The dumbed down tone, of Windows & GNOME, and the restrictiveness comes from the same GUI philosophy. You can do it, if you want to do something they thought of.

    That was Linus's core point, the developer's can never anticipate the user's needs fully, only a subset of them.

  4. #34
    kac77 NNTP User

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by robopensuse View Post
    For me, "GNOME is clunky."

    It's not the appearance that's the problem. It's the sheer number of extra points, clicks and mouse moves you end up making. Slapping a thick layer of makeup, to distract from the core lack of ergonomic features, and then saying, oh but it looks gourgeous does nothing for me, though I have seen many ppl happy enough with that approach.

    Fair enough to give a very basic simple interface to new users, the problem was there wasn't a way to get more. The issues with not exposing Printer options was one symptom.

    Old GNOME 1 used to crash quite a lot, they moved against that, had the corporate Useability types in, and became very "fit in or get out" as a reaction. On the GNOME lists they talk freely about how stale and dull, it's all got as a result.

    Some GNOME users, have claimed that KDE is more Windows like, IMO actually the opposite is true. The dumbed down tone, of Windows & GNOME, and the restrictiveness comes from the same GUI philosophy. You can do it, if you want to do something they thought of.

    That was Linus's core point, the developer's can never anticipate the user's needs fully, only a subset of them.
    I think you've got it twisted. It's one of the main reasons why Torvalds switched... usability. I'm typing this right now from KDE 4.2. I wanted to see if things have changed and indeed they have. It's quicker, probably even quicker to load than Gnome. However, there's some major problems that kwin, widgets, and excess options can't hide... usability and functionality.

    I really think that KDE needs a come to Jesus moment. Why? Because KDE has more potential than Gnome at this point. However, potential alone isn't enough if you get your feelings hurt and aren't willing to make changes.

    I'm primarily an Ubuntu/Gnome user. My desktop is pretty well customized and everything really "just works". So far I'm on day two of KDE 4.2 and there's some really glaring problems that Gnome has rectified years ago. Here's a short list of problems I've stumbled onto.

    *Mounting of Drives
    Right now KDE will show my ext and NTFS drives, but good luck getting them mounted in an easy way. What I had to do was make a directory for them to mount. Then go to the partition manager to create the mount. The difference between this method and Gnome is that. You see your drives. You double click and boom it's mounted. In one click all in one go. KDE not so much.

    *USB Bluetooth Dongles
    Gnome I plug it in and it's detected when the kernel sees it and there's a little BT icon in my system tray. I immediately can connect and search for devices and connect. For KDE you have to find the KDE app first, when it should automatically appear when the device is inserted.

    *Networking
    Right now there's YAST and the KNetworkManager. They fight for attention and there's really no clear cut way to disable/reenable that I can find. I see it in YAST but K Control Center is the default, but it doesn't show my connections, so where is it? Something as easy as "am I connected?", "what's my IP Address?","disconnect/reconnect", etc all seem hidden unless I go to terminal.


    *Opening Admin Access to Applications
    Ok so right now the only thing that works is kdesu. Any other admin access to the kernel via su or sudo don't, why? In Gnome you can use sudo, su or gksudo and they all open the application successfully. No muss no fuss. It's aggravating because even if you are comfortable with using terminal that's not enough when it comes to KDE.

    *Detecting Media Files / Device Drivers
    In Gnome, for Ubuntu anyway, the moment you try and play a file that doesn't have a corresponding codec installed, it prompts you "Searching for codec" followed by "Would you like to install Codec XYZ"?

    In KDE well it will tell you it doesn't work either by hanging or giving you an error message. Why not take the next step and install what I need for me?

    Drivers are the same deal.

    *Kicker Panel
    If it's so customizable, why can't I move it to the top? Come on now. For goodness sake, take care of something this easy that anyone would do upon first logging in. BTW military time is great if I'm on a ship, but I'm not and would like to be able to change this easily.

    *KWin / Emerald / Compiz

    What's the deal here? Gnome install from the package manager using the compiz icon and away you go. In KDE, not so much. It's ok if Kwin is going to try and do away with needing compiz, but right now it's no replacement yet. It's almost there. But it still needs work, so lets not break compatibility until it is. Plus the amount of available themes is puny, I'm installing dekorater to get around this, but again right now it doesn't seem like the simple things are customizable only the more complicated stuff that people won't get to until much later.

    There's more stuff that I'm running into with Myth but I'll stop here.

    Overall like I said there's a lot of potential. But right now usability functionality (not necessarily features) and stability should be job #1. Customizability is great and all but if none of the stuff talks to each other and conflicts and fights for attention or worse hangs without even telling you what's going on, it just doesn't come off as a end user (novice or not) would expect it to.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by kac77 View Post
    Here's a short list of problems I've stumbled onto.
    As you note, those are KDE4 limitations. KDE3 does not have most of these. Gnome has its own set of annoying limitations. Very annoying for some. In particular the pulse audio implementation in gnome is bad. Real bad. This is true across all distributions. KDE-3.5.10 does NOT have the gnome pulse audio problems.

    I think it important to distinguish between KDE-3.5.10 and KDE-4.2.

    Now I also think KDE-4 has potential. The functionality that many of us still want may be "there" in KDE-4.2.x or KDE-4.3.x or KDE-4.4.x. In the meantime, KDE-3.5.10 HAS THE FUNCTIONALITY and is supported for another two years on openSUSE. In two years we will be at KDE-4.4 and given the rate of KDE4 development, that looks very promising.

    I still maintain if Linux had tried a distro with KDE3 he would not not have tried Gnome. ... Or if he had tried Gnome, it would have been to satisfy curiosity about Gnome and not dissatisfaction with KDE3.

  6. #36
    kac77 NNTP User

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
    As you note, those are KDE4 limitations. KDE3 does not have most of these. Gnome has its own set of annoying limitations. Very annoying for some. In particular the pulse audio implementation in gnome is bad. Real bad. This is true across all distributions. KDE-3.5.10 does NOT have the gnome pulse audio problems.

    I think it important to distinguish between KDE-3.5.10 and KDE-4.2.

    Now I also think KDE-4 has potential. The functionality that many of us still want may be "there" in KDE-4.2.x or KDE-4.3.x or KDE-4.4.x. In the meantime, KDE-3.5.10 HAS THE FUNCTIONALITY and is supported for another two years on openSUSE. In two years we will be at KDE-4.4 and given the rate of KDE4 development, that looks very promising.

    I still maintain if Linux had tried a distro with KDE3 he would not not have tried Gnome. ... Or if he had tried Gnome, it would have been to satisfy curiosity about Gnome and not dissatisfaction with KDE3.
    By all means I totally understand the polish of KDE 3.5. I'm actually going to try that after I'm satisfied in understanding 4.2. I just want to make sure that the above listed problems aren't over looked in favor adding more features. Right now KDE 4.2 looks almost as good as Windows 7 if not better from the aesthetic and feature capability point-of-view.

    As far as Gnome and pulse audio, the fixes come relatively quickly and at this point there's only two major issues in Gnome. Pulse Audio recording, and Samba + gvfs (this one I have no idea why they've let linger as long as they have -- it should be all hands on deck to fix this one). Other than that there's not many that I've stumbled on that are deal breakers.

    I'm really interested in looking at the two different philosophies to see what happens with 4.3 or whatever, and Gnome 3.0 (2.31, etc) to see which has my vote. I've been using Linux for a while now so I'm glad to see 4.2 fix a lot of the performance issues I just need to see the polish before I make KDE my favorite WM.

  7. #37

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Linus's latest "endorsement" of GNOME DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.

    DW: Since Fedora has dropped support for KDE 3.x in recent times, what desktop environment are you using now? Have you made the move to KDE 4.x, or dare I say it, GNOME? If so, how have you found the transition?

    LT: Since I'm on Fedora, I got hit by the (bad) transition to KDE4, and as a result I've been using GNOME for the last year or so. It's still somewhat painful, more so when I'm on my laptop, mainly for the same old reason: you cannot fix the mouse buttons in GNOME. (The reason this hits me more on the laptop than anywhere else is that most laptops only have two buttons, making the middle-button press much harder. And middle button is what you need for the 'send to back' window action.)

    I wrote the patch (including even the graphical configuration management), I sent it in, and it got rejected as "too complicated for users". Frickin' idiots (and I'm not talking about those alleged users).

    But right now, KDE is worse. I'd like to explore alternatives, but if you've followed my answers this far and are perceptive, you'll probably already have figured out that the programs involved aren't on my list of things I care about that much.

    I'm well known for disliking GNOME, but it's not the "using it" part that I dislike as much as the apparent mentality of the GNOME people who think that all users are idiots and then limit what I can do with it for that reason.

    See the difference?

    So I'll use whatever works best on my machine and in my workflow, and a window manager is not something I really care deeply about.

  8. #38

    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Simply opinion, but for most Linux is about freedom and functionality, yet KDE 4.x development seems to be focused on glitz. Gnome is clean and logical; minimal, functional, and unobtrusive with the option to graphically trick it out with compiz etc... Menu customization is simple and complete. KDE 4.x is in your face with all its graphical goodiness, the menu system (while not difficult) is illogically structured as many have noted. I find KDE 4.x to perform noticeably slower in every way on my Lenovo S10 netbook as well.

    If you spend the majority of your time gazing at your eyecandy jumble of a desktop while anticipating the next wonderous application transition animation, KDE 4.x is for you. If it is important to be able to quickly navigate your menu system, and you spend most of your time with your face in some software then go with Gnome.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Quote Originally Posted by czerro View Post
    If it is important to be able to quickly navigate your menu system, and you spend most of your time with your face in some software then go with Gnome.
    ... or go with KDE-3.5.10. Its the best KDE implementation out there.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: GNOME is better than KDE

    Holy Cow! This is still going on
    Look people let's think of linux as pizza & the DE's as a side item like breadsticks or garlic bread. OK?
    Some people like garlic bread, some like breadsticks neither is right or wrong.
    Now just as you'd peacefully eat your pizza & whichever side item you choose alongside those that didn't, let gnomers, kde'ers, XCFE'ers,etc use their DE choice,
    Can we all just get along now?
    I'm just a curious cat
    My 64 bit: RADEON RX 570 |CPU AMD - Ryzen 5 1600
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