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Thread: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

  1. #1
    Robert Smits NNTP User

    Default Re: Adios Windows... well, not quite

    kastorff wrote:

    >
    > -Thread moving to Applications-
    >
    > Thread temporarily closed.
    >
    >



    If you're going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don't leave the
    beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then find you
    moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to. This is getting
    REALLY annoying.
    --
    bob@rsmits.ca (Robert Smits, Ladysmith BC)

    "I'm not one of those who think Bill Gates is the devil. I simply suspect
    that if Microsoft ever met up with the devil, it wouldn't need an
    interpreter." - Nicholas Petreley


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Adios Windows... well, not quite

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Smits View Post
    kastorff wrote:

    >
    > -Thread moving to Applications-
    >
    > Thread temporarily closed.
    >
    >



    If you're going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don't leave the
    beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then find you
    moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to. This is getting
    REALLY annoying.
    --
    bob@rsmits.ca (Robert Smits, Ladysmith BC)

    "I'm not one of those who think Bill Gates is the devil. I simply suspect
    that if Microsoft ever met up with the devil, it wouldn't need an
    interpreter." - Nicholas Petreley
    Staff moderation decisions are not up for public debate or commentary. Feel free to dialog with staff privately about your concerns.

    As for NNTP issues, this is a web based forum providing NNTP access as a courtesy. We are not a newsgroups provider. We run the forums from a web interface, with web based tools. There are serious limitations with our current software tools in trying to integrate protocols designed for different ways of handing topics, replies, and organization. This puts a burden on both NNTP and HTTP users, and requires cooperation from members using either to make this work for the benefit of the community. We're constantly pursuing both administrative and software solutions that improve the NNTP/HTTP content interaction, but that takes time and resources. We are hosted by Novell, but other than that, we're on our own, and subject to the constraints imposed by volunteer time and resources.

    If you're unwilling to cooperate with us on this endeavor, or can't wait for better solutions to present themselves, then please accept our best wishes in finding a community that better serves your needs.

    Thread moved to Forums Comments/Suggestions
    Last edited by kastorff; 16-Jul-2008 at 12:22.
    Keith Kastorff

  3. #3
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    Default Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    <posted & mailed>

    Robert Smits wrote:

    > kastorff wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> -Thread moving to Applications-
    >>
    >> Thread temporarily closed.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > If you're going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don't leave the
    > beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then find you
    > moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to. This is getting
    > REALLY annoying.


    Just to add a little more to what Kastorff has said, through NNTP there is
    no way to move the thread from the old forum to the new one. The only thing
    we could do is either delete the thread in the original location on NNTP
    (which I doubt many people would like or agree to) or post things like
    Kastorff stated about where it is moving to. Then if the NNTP user would
    like to respond, all he/she would need to do is change the newsgroup from
    the old one to the new one and it will stop causing broken threads. This
    does also mean that the NNTP user will need to skim the thread itself to
    see if it has been moved.

    In order for things to work and the community to get better/stronger as a
    whole, we need to start working together instead of all this infighting.
    Just look through the NNTP vs Web threads and you will see what I mean. We
    need to understand the limitations, deal with them and if people are able
    to help correct them then contact people and let them know.

    This is no longer the Novell way or the Suseforums.net way or the Suse Linux
    Support way, this is our way and we need to start understanding that and
    working towards a common goal. Get the lines of communication flowing
    instead of trying to put up roadblocks. Just my 2 cents.

  4. #4
    Jim Henderson NNTP User

    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:45:35 +0000, 69_rs_ss wrote:

    >> If you're going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don't leave
    >> the beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then
    >> find you moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to.
    >> This is getting REALLY annoying.

    >
    > Just to add a little more to what Kastorff has said, through NNTP there
    > is no way to move the thread from the old forum to the new one. The only
    > thing we could do is either delete the thread in the original location
    > on NNTP (which I doubt many people would like or agree to) or post
    > things like Kastorff stated about where it is moving to. Then if the
    > NNTP user would like to respond, all he/she would need to do is change
    > the newsgroup from the old one to the new one and it will stop causing
    > broken threads. This does also mean that the NNTP user will need to skim
    > the thread itself to see if it has been moved.


    One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the web
    forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I see a
    "moved" indication, I'd be happy to change my headers to point to the
    correct group, but

    > In order for things to work and the community to get better/stronger as
    > a whole, we need to start working together instead of all this
    > infighting. Just look through the NNTP vs Web threads and you will see
    > what I mean. We need to understand the limitations, deal with them and
    > if people are able to help correct them then contact people and let them
    > know.
    >
    > This is no longer the Novell way or the Suseforums.net way or the Suse
    > Linux Support way, this is our way and we need to start understanding
    > that and working towards a common goal. Get the lines of communication
    > flowing instead of trying to put up roadblocks. Just my 2 cents.


    Well stated, and agree 100%. I'd agree more, but that's mathematically
    impossible. :-)

    Jim

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
    Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:

    <snip>
    > One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the
    > web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I
    > see a "moved" indication, I'd be happy to change my headers to point
    > to the correct group, but

    <snip>

    Hi
    For example something like;

    -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
    [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]

    --
    Cheers Malcolm (Linux Counter #276890)
    SLED 10 SP2 i586 Kernel 2.6.16.60-0.23-default
    up 1:05, 1 user, load average: 0.05, 0.13, 0.18
    GPU GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE Version: 173.14.09


  6. #6
    Jim Henderson NNTP User

    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:40:39 +0000, Malcolm wrote:

    > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
    > Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
    >
    > <snip>
    >> One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the
    >> web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I see
    >> a "moved" indication, I'd be happy to change my headers to point to the
    >> correct group, but

    > <snip>
    >
    > Hi
    > For example something like;
    >
    > -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
    > [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]


    I'd be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum
    names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.

    But combined with a subject change of "Thread Moved:" at the beginning,
    or "Thread Closed:" for threads that have been closed, I would see that
    meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to "fit in" in the web forum
    world while still using NNTP.

    Jim

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmlewis View Post
    For example something like;

    -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
    [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]
    I'd personally be happy to do that. Unfortunately the whole process of moving a thread that's "NNTP friendly" is such a time consuming process (can take up to 10 minutes per thread elapsed time to ensure the change post hits the NNTP gateway), I've been reluctant to internally propose such a mechanism become policy for all staff. Each staff member moves posts/threads in his own fashion.

    I've started using boilerplate text for my moves, so it's a small thing for me to change the text to include the NNTP forum name.
    Keith Kastorff

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Henderson View Post
    I'd be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.
    I'll have to research that a bit, but it sounds very doable. Kim's the only one of us with any experience with the NNTP gateway prior to the merge, so he's our resident expert. Kim's on vacation this week, so if I can't figure it out, we'll have to wait on his return to get the definitive response.

    But combined with a subject change of "Thread Moved:" at the beginning, or "Thread Closed:" for threads that have been closed, I would see that meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to "fit in" in the web forum
    world while still using NNTP.
    As far as I know, we don't have tools available to do this ATM. It's easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don't believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change on the NNTP side. The process I'm using ATM is already very time consuming, so this might be one of those that even if it's doable, it can't be done completely from the web side, and might simply be unmanageable from a time standpoint. We're trying to balance volunteer willingness with process and tools, and there's a line somewhere where the fix becomes worse than the problem. What used to be a 10 second (elapsed time) process has already become a possible 10 minute (elapsed time) process. When Kim returns, we'll certainly explore what options we have. Hopefully, my ignorance with regards to this possibility will be replaced by some reasonable solution when Kim has a chance to weigh in.
    Last edited by kastorff; 16-Jul-2008 at 19:44.
    Keith Kastorff

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    Jim Henderson wrote:

    > But combined with a subject change of "Thread Moved:" at the beginning,
    > or "Thread Closed:" for threads that have been closed, I would see that
    > meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to "fit in" in the web forum
    > world while still using NNTP.
    >
    > Jim

    Have you been seen the threads I have moved lately? I was curious if this is
    what you meant in the other thread about adding Moved or Closed to the
    subject.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

    kastorff wrote:

    >
    > Jim Henderson;1840522 Wrote:
    >> But combined with a subject change of "Thread Moved:" at the beginning,
    >> or "Thread Closed:" for threads that have been closed, I would see that
    >> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to "fit in" in the web forum
    >> world while still using NNTP.

    >
    > As far as I know, we don't have tools available to do this ATM. It's
    > easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don't
    > believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change
    > on the NNTP side. The process I'm using ATM is already very time
    > consuming, so this might be one of those that even if it's doable, it
    > can't be done completely from the web side, and might simply be
    > unmanageable from a time standpoint. We're trying to balance volunteer
    > willingness with process and tools, and there's a line somewhere where
    > the fix becomes worse than the problem. What used to be a 10 second
    > (elapsed time) process has already become a possible 10 minute (elapsed
    > time) process. When Kim returns, we'll certainly explore what options we
    > have. Hopefully, my ignorance with regards to this possibility will be
    > replaced by some reasonable solution when Kim has a change to weigh in.
    >
    >

    I think I might have gotten it figured out but I am still testing things to
    see if things work correctly.

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