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View Full Version : Will the Windows 8 mistakes cause Windows users to switch to Linux & openSuse?



MirceaKitsune
30-Aug-2012, 07:58
I'm a Windows user for over 15 years, and planning to switch to OpenSuse once I figure some things out. I've been using Windows 7 in the last years and planned switching to Windows 8, until I heard some bad news about it. Apart from the Metro UI and Microsoft's new App system (similar to Linux's software repositories but more restrictive), Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username and log into Windows. I believe this takes Windows closer to the restrictive type of computing, where computers would eventually be centralized into one big server and everyone would need an account with "the one big machine" to even use their computer locally. Certainly, I'm never getting an OS like that and sticking with Windows 7.

My question is how much this will cause Windows users to switch over to Linux. Since OpenSuse is one of the first distros (possibly second place after Ubuntu) this addresses it especially. Will Windows users disappointed with the new restrictive ways Microsoft have chosen switch to Linux permanently? I've already been wanting to switch to Linux for some time (technical difficulties kept me) but after hearing about Windows 8, I totally know it must happen for me. How many others feel the same way and have already migrated?

dd@home.dk
30-Aug-2012, 10:33
On 08/30/2012 05:06 PM, MirceaKitsune wrote:
> How many others feel
> the same way and have already migrated?

i migrated away from Windows when i got tired of waiting for Win95, and
left 3.11 and moved to OS/2 in early '95....and then beginning in 1998
started learning Linux...by 2002 i just never needed to boot OS/2 again..

today i have no Windows based programs i depend on, or even use...have
not booted the Win7 that came on this machine when i bought it--i did
use it a couple of days while i downloaded and burned an openSUSE
install disk (which took FOREVER)...today, i don't even have WINE
installed..

so, a Microsoft-free existence is not only possible, but very freeing
and rewarding..

however, free and open source software is not cost free--you will have
to decide to do some learning, exercise patience and ENJOY the ride..

otherwise, the only other reasonable non-MS way is Apple (and *lots*
more money)

--
dd

chief_sealth
30-Aug-2012, 14:10
Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username and log into Windows.

That's very interesting. I can't find anything to confirm it, can you provide a link?

Wrexxman
31-Aug-2012, 03:53
A few weeks ago, I purchased a new PC with Windows 7 on it. I also got a coupon to upgrade to Windows 8 for like $15. From what I have been hearing, I will not touch Windows 8. The only (and main) reason people will stick with Windows PCs is for gaming. I know of two people (non-gamers) who replaced their home computers with tablets, as all they do is email, social media and Netflix.

brunomcl
31-Aug-2012, 15:02
My question is how much this will cause Windows users to switch over to Linux.

Probably most will stay with Windows7 until MS launches Windows9 (i.e., 8 without Metro) to appease consumers, just like it happened with Vista - most people stayed with XP until W7 came out.

I hope I'm proved wrong, but I'm afraid the account thing - if it exist - will not be removed, people care more about the UI than the philosophy behind it, unfortunately.

nightwishfan
31-Aug-2012, 17:22
Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username and log into Windows.
At least on the beta/rc thingy I tried in vmware it did allow me to create a local account to log in. Though I think I still needed a ms account to download anything from windows store, even free stuff.


My question is how much this will cause Windows users to switch over to Linux.
I would hope it would just convince folk that open source is a valid option and let them make a decision to use it. I think most folk will try to convince themselves Microsoft's way is the right way, or as was said just stick to what they know. Personally I find it odd when uses ditch the current version of Windows and use the previously supported version run by the same company. It is like having a bad experience and still shuffling money their way. Vote with your wallets. All that money given to them from windows 7 is what made windows 8 possible.

Jon_Freeman
01-Sep-2012, 05:24
I'd had a couple of looks at Linux but didn't switch (with the exception of my Laptop which dual boots with Vista) to it until I decided I needed to move from Windows 2000. I didn't like what MS was doing with WPA on XP and took another look at Linux. This time, I found OpenSuse (9.2 then) suited me (and later along the line, my parents) nicely.

Working along the lines that Linux is even better as a desktop system now and imagining that things had worked out differently then (perhaps feeling Linux wasn't quite ready for me) and I'd opted to stick with Windows. I feel confident in saying that, for me, this new requirement (assuming it is true) would prompt another evaluation of Linux and that I would switch.

That said, while I'm pretty sure I would switch to Linux if I was in that situation, I'm doubtful that many will change over.

MirceaKitsune
01-Sep-2012, 12:37
That's very interesting. I can't find anything to confirm it, can you provide a link?

I tried the Windows 8 beta (release candidate) a few months ago on VirtualBox. I can confirm it required a Microsoft account, and automatically an internet connection for the first login. I thought it's only for the beta, but people are saying this is also for the final version.

robin_listas
01-Sep-2012, 15:17
On 2012-08-31 12:56, Wrexxman wrote:
> The only (and main) reason people
> will stick with Windows PCs is for gaming.

Not true.
I use Windows in this laptop and I have not a single game in it.

I use Windows because it is a requirement of some hardware I bought, like a gps (tomtom), a cellular
phone (nokia), an ebook (kobo). All those devices require a Windows machine to run the updates and
uploads.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

Sagemta
01-Sep-2012, 21:01
In all seriousness initially I suspect 1 out of 100 will switch to Linux, 15 out of 100 will go to Apple, 20 out of 100 will just go to a pad to stay, 34 out of 100 will stay with 7, 15 out of 100 are still in XP, 10 out of 100 will go for 8, the remainder will just throw up their hands & if they can leave the whole thing.

please_try_again
05-Sep-2012, 12:00
On 2012-08-31 12:56, Wrexxman wrote:
> The only (and main) reason people
> will stick with Windows PCs is for gaming.

Not true.
I use Windows in this laptop and I have not a single game in it.

I use Windows because it is a requirement of some hardware I bought, like a gps (tomtom), a cellular
phone (nokia), an ebook (kobo). All those devices require a Windows machine to run the updates and
uploads.


So you don't use Windows to play games but to play with your toys. lol!

dragonbite
06-Sep-2012, 06:51
My question is how much this will cause Windows users to switch over to Linux. Since OpenSuse is one of the first distros (possibly second place after Ubuntu) this addresses it especially. Will Windows users disappointed with the new restrictive ways Microsoft have chosen switch to Linux permanently? I've already been wanting to switch to Linux for some time (technical difficulties kept me) but after hearing about Windows 8, I totally know it must happen for me. How many others feel the same way and have already migrated?

I wouldn't suspect a huge surge as could have been attributed to Windows Vista. People have an up-to-date and stable alternative (Windows 7) and the initial "gotta have it -- oops! -- gotta get rid of it" process has gone through and people have been trained to wait for at least another release.

Windows 3.1 -- good
Windows 95 -- bad
Windows 98 -- good
Windows Me -- bad
Windows XP -- good
Windows Vista -- bad
Windows 7 -- good
Windows 8 -- (guess!)

Vista did get some people to at least pull their heads out of the ground and find out that there are, in fact, alternatives that don't suck. Those people that were on on the fence, or unsure during Vista days may decide to give it a whirl with Windows 8 coming out but with the sheer number of users I don't think this is a significant number.

I've been intrigued by Windows 8, and want to get my hands on a working model (in the MS store maybe) before jumping one way or another but I have been using Linux for a while so I know I can always return whenever I want so Windows 8 is a take-it-or-leave-it for me. Windows 7, though, has been pretty good except for the resource requirements on my older laptop.

robin_listas
06-Sep-2012, 10:15
On 2012-09-05 21:06, please try again wrote:

> So you don't use Windows to play games but to play with your toys. lol!

If you consider a car navigator or a plain phone a toy... :-)

I would much prefer to use Linux, but the last time I tried the TomTom refused to connect to a
virtualized windows guest in vmware...

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

please_try_again
06-Sep-2012, 12:07
On 2012-09-05 21:06, please try again wrote:

> So you don't use Windows to play games but to play with your toys. lol!

If you consider a car navigator or a plain phone a toy... :-)

Probably. I can live without, and you just gave me one more good reason not to use them. ;)

caf4926
06-Sep-2012, 22:41
please try again wrote:

> robably. I can live without, and you just gave me one more good reason
> not to use them. ;)

LOL -yes.
And I sure wouldn't pain myself with the displeasure of installing and
using windows.
I never got lost yet without a TomTom.
Pretty sure life will go on much the same if I stay as I am.

But I see @carlos point, albeit kind of mute/lame

robin_listas
07-Sep-2012, 11:46
On 2012-09-07 07:41, caf4926 wrote:

> LOL -yes.
> And I sure wouldn't pain myself with the displeasure of installing and
> using windows.
> I never got lost yet without a TomTom.

But I do. With and without :-}
Even people born in Madrid get lost easily on it.

> Pretty sure life will go on much the same if I stay as I am.
>
> But I see @carlos point, albeit kind of mute/lame

Well, my point is that there are gadgets around that are only usable from Windows, like it or not
(and I don't). When I can, I choose hardware that works in Linux, but sometimes I have no choice.

As it happens, I do have Windows training that I can put in my CV, but not Linux training (and you
can guess which I prefer and know more about). But if I find a job for which I have to use Windows,
I will not say no, either.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

please_try_again
07-Sep-2012, 22:26
On 2012-09-07 07:41, caf4926 wrote:

> LOL -yes.
> And I sure wouldn't pain myself with the displeasure of installing and
> using windows.
> I never got lost yet without a TomTom.

But I do. With and without :-}
Even people born in Madrid get lost easily on it.


It's not because of Madrid, it's because of Windows. lol!

robin_listas
08-Sep-2012, 03:55
On 2012-09-08 07:36, please try again wrote:

>
> It's not because of Madrid, it's because of Windows. lol!

Ha! Even those with no navigator?

But the TomTom runs Linux inside, we think, which makes more... can't find the word... hateful?
their refusal to make a Linux software for the management in the computer.

The model 1000 is horrible in this respect, is a closed box entirely. Previous models you connected
to the computer and saw a disk, like any usb gadget. Not now... it is impossible to do a backup,
replace files... Now it uses some kind of encrypted connection to block third party applications.

Next device I buy will not be a tomtom if I can find something better.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

please_try_again
08-Sep-2012, 16:20
On 2012-09-08 07:36, please try again wrote:

>
> It's not because of Madrid, it's because of Windows. lol!

Ha! Even those with no navigator?


If they regularly used Windows, they might suffer irreversible brain damage and/or memory loss. But I told you that already, remember?

brunomcl
09-Sep-2012, 07:11
I would much prefer to use Linux, but the last time I tried the TomTom refused to connect to a
virtualized windows guest in vmware...

Well, I bought a TomTom XL (model 4E.T0.002.03 / Canada 310) yesterday and the HOME/mapshare app installed, updated and worked fine in a XP VM under VMWarePlayer. I was able to update the maps, voices and other stuff in the device connected through USB without issues.

So perhaps it's a TT step in the right direction - or a slip in their don't-care-about-linux policy...

robin_listas
09-Sep-2012, 12:44
On 2012-09-09 16:16, brunomcl wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2484242 Wrote:
>> I would much prefer to use Linux, but the last time I tried the TomTom
>> refused to connect to a
>> virtualized windows guest in vmware...
>
> Well, I bought a TomTom XL (model 4E.T0.002.03 / Canada 310) yesterday
> and the HOME/mapshare app installed, updated and worked fine in a XP VM
> under VMWarePlayer. I was able to update the maps, voices and other
> stuff in the device connected through USB without issues.

Maybe the problem is with a particular model. I posted about the issue in the vmware forum, no
answers at all.

> So perhaps it's a TT step in the right direction - or a slip in their
> don't-care-about-linux policy...

I doubt it. I now have a model from the 1000 series and it is simple not possible to connect to
anything, the connection is encrypted. It is a completely closed device, it is not possible to mount
it as a disk and do a backup. You can not save the favorites on a file on the computer, edit them
with third party software... nothing.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

thilips
28-Sep-2012, 06:24
Sadly... well not sadly cause Microsoft has had it's part to play in the computing world but, I believe most users will stay with Microsoft. The reason being is because it's not just a matter of home computing but also a matter of work. Businesses will not switch to Linux except for large applications because the average SysAdmin can not manage a Linux system. You will still be surprised at how hard it is to find a Linux admin so unfortunately people will probably still stick with Windows even if Windows 8 is a doomed platform/tablet OS.

MirceaKitsune
28-Sep-2012, 07:13
Sadly... well not sadly cause Microsoft has had it's part to play in the computing world but, I believe most users will stay with Microsoft. The reason being is because it's not just a matter of home computing but also a matter of work. Businesses will not switch to Linux except for large applications because the average SysAdmin can not manage a Linux system. You will still be surprised at how hard it is to find a Linux admin so unfortunately people will probably still stick with Windows even if Windows 8 is a doomed platform/tablet OS.

For work computers it might matter less, since it's really a corporal decision as to what to use there (also based on money and what people know to use best). It is however sad that there are so few Linux admins around. I'm also curious about home computers though. Personally, I planned to switch to openSUSE either way, and probably would have at the same date if Windows 8 didn't do those bad things. But in this case, I would have surely not continued using Windows after Microsoft decided to put all computers using it in its pocket.

dragonbite
28-Sep-2012, 07:16
Many would rather fight with the beast they know (Windows) than deal with the unknown (Linux).

This fear keeps them from even considering an alternative and that has nothing to do with Microsoft specifically. This comes to play well before the ease of installing, better resource handling, breadth of available open source applications, secure and stable platform and wonderful community comes into play.

This fear is best countered by eliminating the fear of being alone, that they are not the only ones trying something new and where there are others, there is help. Regardless of whether they use them or not it is perceived as potential help and that in itself emboldens the individual.

thilips
02-Oct-2012, 13:53
....Regardless of whether they use them or not it is perceived as potential help and that in itself emboldens the individual.

You hit the nail on the head. The "perceived" help. People "perceive" they get help with Microsoft when in actually you get better, free, more timely, help with many Linux distros. Since Linux does not resort to mass marketing campaigns stretching the truth people think Linux is still something mainly used by geeks and nerds. Also I believe there are two more major problems: one is the actual idea of thinking and searching for an answer. A quick "Google" search brings up just as much info and more on a Linux issue than Windows due to the propritary nature of Microsoft but, why think. Most users and pass that, most college students don't want to think they want an answer. This way of thinking has been introduced by the second problem, "Baby Boomers". Understand when I say "Baby Boomers" I don't mean all 100mil plus "Boomers" around the U.S however as a generation that fought "the system" they have now become "the system". In the past this was fine because the past generation retired and gave wisdom whereas the newer generation explored new terrorities. This is not so. As "Boomers" work longer to maintain lifestyle and income they do what older people do by nature: stick to what works. This mentality stifles innovation thus stifles new areas of development and exploration; those new areas include Linux as a main source plattform for home and work. I believe this is another reason why many will stick with the "Windows" beast. Change is for youth, stability is for the aged and in between is management unfortunately management and aged are one in the same.

MirceaKitsune
02-Oct-2012, 17:14
I heard about the help thing... it's an understandable tendency to think that. Not sure if Microsoft really does offer such quick and exact support whenever you have a Windows issue personally. I learned to use the computer with Windows on it since I was 7 (mostly on my own), and until I got cable internet I never really asked people for help much. That and my installations of Windows over the years didn't... erm, have support included.

But this has never been a factor due to which I stayed with Windows until now. Linux simply seemed more unstable (especially with certain hardware or finding the proper video drivers) and learning a whole new OS and structure (which is a different experience) was difficult. The learning is going well though... I can say I know enough about Linux (specifically openSUSE) to safely use it as a primary OS, and I'll understand more as I go. If I would have been lucky to find someone experienced with Linux when I was young (to put it on my machine while I was still being "formed" in the domain) I would have probably said this about Windows instead, cuz it would have then seemed weird and difficult to understand. Switching from Windows is certainly difficult, but if you have overall background knowledge of how things work (and ease at learning a different OS structure) it can become easier sooner than one might expect.

Other than that, I can confirm I've actually gotten more support with openSUSE than ever with Windows. Partly because I'd never bother contacting Microsoft (especially about everyday issues) while here I join #suse on IRC and always talk to someone if they know of a problem. Only thing that slightly irks me is when I ask about an everyday issue and someone tells me "test it, post a bug or code a patch". I'm slowly learning programming too, and would love to contribute helping with openSUSE in some forms... but when an important component glitches during everyday usage (stable version, not experimental) it is concerning to think you need to file a bug and wait 6 months at best for the new openSUSE version to be released and hopefully have a fix if someone even got to my bug.

This is the main thing Windows sadly has over any Linux distro... stability. BUT, Linux caught up a lot on this too in the last years, and to me it seems almost as safe and stable now (not quite but almost). On the other side, what Windows never had or will have is the freedom of Linux... including in technical senses. Windows is very much a lump of functions, whereas in openSUSE each component is a separate package and you can use different implementations and alternatives for almost anything which is fantastic. During the last months also, I've been getting very sick with having to go to each program's web page to update my Windows applications (download and run a new setup.exe for everything). With software repositories in Linux, updating feels like heaven in comparison :)

robin_listas
03-Oct-2012, 03:23
On 2012-10-03 02:16, MirceaKitsune wrote:

> This is the main thing Windows sadly has over any Linux distro...
> stability. BUT, Linux caught up a lot on this too in the last years, and
> to me it seems almost as safe and stable now (not quite but almost).

It is the other way round. Linux has always been way more stable than Windows. It has been my
experience since 1998, and I also come from the MSDos/Windows world.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

dd@home.dk
03-Oct-2012, 05:56
On 10/03/2012 02:16 AM, MirceaKitsune wrote:
> Linux simply seemed more unstable

please don't confuse the trials, pitfalls and lack of understanding
caused by being a new user with system instability.

there are lots of Linux systems which have run continuously for _years_.

the one supporting my caveat is just one example of many many many...
(as far as i know the last time it went down was due to a server farm
destroyed by fire <http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10279084-93.html>

it was on line again in a couple of days (from geographically diverse
backups) and it keeps on ticking.

on the other hand, one can depend on opensuse.org going down far too often.

--
dd http://tinyurl.com/DD-Caveat

MirceaKitsune
03-Oct-2012, 06:22
It is the other way round. Linux has always been way more stable than Windows. It has been my
experience since 1998, and I also come from the MSDos/Windows world.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

Maybe when someone is more familiar with either OS, it tends to seem more stable than the other because they know it better and are less likely to make mistakes (and can fix new issues more easily). Personally I have many problems in openSUSE that I never had in Windows, and I can actually list a few:

- Finding the proper video driver for my ATI cards took *years* (until the geeko repository appeared). The radeon driver included with openSUSE was never fully stable plus it was unable to run any 3D game, while the proprietary one downloaded from AMD (http://www.amd.com/) (proper distro and version) would also be horribly broken. It was months ago that I was able to run a 3D game in Linux for the first time. In Windows I just installed the driver, restarted and it worked... never had issues either finding or installing the driver.

- Until openSUSE 12.0 was out, 11.x versions were unable to detect my hard drive during install (2TB SATA3 Seagate disk). A live DVD distro would see it just fine, but the installer would not. I tried everything... including changing modes, plugging my drive on another SATA port (and SATA chip) but nothing. For this reason I had to go without Linux on my main machine for two years until I noticed 12.0 fixed it. Windows never had the slightest issue with that drive.

- My webcam does not work with any application. I did fix it for Skype by using a special shortcut that launches it with a compatibility lib. My webcam is fairly modern (got it 3 years ago if that counts) but thankfully I barely ever use it.

- My Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone (Android 4.0) will not connect via USB cable on openSUSE (through either MTP or PTP). I'm working for weeks to fix the issue, and no one found a solution for me yet. I don't know how I'm going to transfer my videos and photos to my computer from now on. On Windows both MTP and PTP work perfectly well.

- grub2 needs the "legacy keyboard" option to be enabled in BIOS, otherwise I can't control the boot menu. If my BIOS didn't have that setting I could have been left with a non-functional system.

- Many applications not distributed in software repositories (which I download and install from their website) will not start without additional system tweaks. This is usually due to libraries I have to install from the openSUSE repo, but sometimes that doesn't fix it either. For MineCraft I had to manually download a group of libraries from some website and update the ones in the MC installation, otherwise it would crash. For the Second Life client I have a similar problem... but even updating the libraries causes it to not start (a few months ago it started up with openSUSE 12.1). This is one of the things making me feel quite unsafe in Linux... again this is a rarity in Windows. This does however look like a fault of the application for not including the proper libs.

- Overall, I experience glitches every now and then around openSUSE (especially with KDE). Yesterday I could no longer delete things to the trash because my trash was considered full although it was empty... had to delete a metadata file to repair it. Today (a few minutes ago actually) I just fixed Akonadi spamming the systems with dozens of akonadi_agent_launcher processes due to abandoned entries that mysteriously got there. Otherwise I frequently run into small glitches... like a bug with the Grid Desktop type in KDE causing two settings bars to pop up when hovering the mouse over widgets.

- Although this might be a matter of personal experience and opinion, there's a higher risk of making the system no longer boot in Linux. For example: A few days ago I discovered that if you disconnect an auto-mount drive, openSUSE will fail to start without any warning, unless you add the 'nofail' parameter to fstab. Although I did that and know how to fix it now, I was left with the impression that "removing a secondary hard drive equals your system being broken beyond recovery". I also read a post about an user being stuck in the recovery console because he modified some regional setting (something about switching to UTC time). Thank god I backup the installation often... but even so I'm worried whenever I restart until I see the login screen.

By all means this is not to complain... just explaining why I see openSUSE more unstable than Windows. None of the problems listed above ever happened in Win for me (at least not in XP and 7). And I am using the latest stable updates, not experimental versions of packages. But again, Linux is safer than it used to be (and getting better) and maybe as I learn more those issues will be easier to work around.

dragonbite
03-Oct-2012, 06:49
I don't think most people here count as "Windows users to switch toLinux & openSuse" lol!

malcolmlewis
03-Oct-2012, 06:55
robin_listas;2492818 Wrote:
>
> It is the other way round. Linux has always been way more stable than
> Windows. It has been my
> experience since 1998, and I also come from the MSDos/Windows world.
>
> --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> Carlos E. R.
> (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

Maybe when someone is more familiar with either OS, it tends to seem
more stable than the other because they know it better and are less
likely to make mistakes (and can fix new issues more easily). Personally
I have many problems in openSUSE that I never had in Windows, and I can
actually list a few:

- Finding the proper video driver for my ATI cards took *years* (until
the geeko repository appeared). The radeon driver included with openSUSE
was never fully stable plus it was unable to run any 3D game, while the
proprietary one downloaded from 'AMD' (http://www.amd.com/) (proper
distro and version) would also be horribly broken. It was months ago
that I was able to run a 3D game in Linux for the first time. In Windows
I just installed the driver, restarted and it worked... never had issues
either finding or installing the driver.

- Until openSUSE 12.0 was out, 11.x versions were unable to detect my
hard drive during install (2TB SATA3 Seagate disk). A live DVD distro
would see it just fine, but the installer would not. I tried
everything... including changing modes, plugging my drive on another
SATA port (and SATA chip) but nothing. For this reason I had to go
without Linux on my main machine for two years until I noticed 12.0
fixed it. Windows never had the slightest issue that drive.

- My webcam does not work with any other application. I did fix it for
Skype by using a special shortcut that launches it with a compatibility
lib. My webcam is fairly modern (got it 3 years ago if that counts) but
thankfully I barely ever use it.

- My Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone (Android 4.0) will not connect via
USB cable on openSUSE (through either MTP or PTP). I'm working for weeks
to fix the issue, and no one found a solution for me yet. I don't know
how I'm going to transfer my videos and photos to my computer from now
on. On Windows both MTP and PTP work perfectly well.

- grub2 needs the "legacy keyboard" option to be enabled in BIOS,
otherwise I can't control the boot menu. If my BIOS didn't have that
setting I could have been left with a non-functional system.

- Many applications not distributed in software repositories (which I
download and install from their website) will not start without
additional system tweaks. This is usually due to libraries I have to
install from the openSUSE repo, but sometimes that doesn't fix it
either. For MineCraft I had to manually download a group of libraries
from some website and update the ones in the MC installation, otherwise
it would crash. For the Second Life client I have a similar problem...
but even updating the libraries causes it to not start (a few months ago
it started up with openSUSE 12.1). This is one of the things making me
feel quite unsafe in Linux... again this is a rarity in Windows. This
does however look like a fault of the application for not including the
proper libs.

- Overall, I experience glitches every now and then around openSUSE
(especially with KDE). Yesterday I could no longer delete things to the
trash because my trash was considered full although it was empty... had
to delete a metadata file to repair it. Today (a few minutes ago
actually) I just fixed Akonadi spamming the systems with dozens of
akonadi_agent_launcher processes due to abandoned entries that
mysteriously got there. Otherwise I frequently run into small
glitches... like a bug with the Grid Desktop type in KDE causing two
settings bars to pop up when hovering the mouse over widgets.

- Although this might be a matter of personal experience and opinion,
there's a higher risk of making the system no longer boot in Linux. For
example: A few days ago I discovered that if you disconnect an
auto-mount drive, openSUSE will fail to start without any warning,
unless you add the 'nofail' parameter to fstab. Although I did that and
know how to fix it now, I was left with the impression that "removing a
secondary hard drive equals your system being broken beyond recovery". I
also read a post about an user being stuck in the recovery console
because he modified some regional setting (something about switching to
UTC time). Thank god I backup the installation often... but even so I'm
worried whenever I restart until I see the login screen.

By all means this is not to complain... just explaining why I see
openSUSE more unstable than Windows. None of the problems listed above
ever happened in Win for me (at least not in XP and 7). And I am using
the latest stable updates, not experimental versions of packages. But
again, Linux is safer than it used to be (and getting better) and maybe
as I learn more those issues will be easier to work around.



Hi
Interesting read ;) I only have a few games I (well our Son) play on
the computer, I have an Xbox for the others....

Not a month goes by without a person bringing me a computer that won't
boot... guess what OS it's running.... it's got all my stuff on it and
no backup....

The thing is people need to feedback to the manufacturers of
software/hardware, this won't work in linux, sure it might get rebuffed
but over time hopefully that will change.

Both laptops we have both support Linux (DELL and HP), so I don't have
any hardware issues, quirks (wireless on the DELL, ATI gpu on the
HP) for sure but easy to overcome.

Data transfer, have you investigated bluetooth or ssh (sshdroid for
the phone)?

Stick with it and remember to have fun :)

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.6-2.10-desktop
up 1 day 20:45, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.07
CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU

MirceaKitsune
03-Oct-2012, 07:29
Hi
Interesting read ;) I only have a few games I (well our Son) play on
the computer, I have an Xbox for the others....

Not a month goes by without a person bringing me a computer that won't
boot... guess what OS it's running.... it's got all my stuff on it and
no backup....

The thing is people need to feedback to the manufacturers of
software/hardware, this won't work in linux, sure it might get rebuffed
but over time hopefully that will change.

Both laptops we have both support Linux (DELL and HP), so I don't have
any hardware issues, quirks (wireless on the DELL, ATI gpu on the
HP) for sure but easy to overcome.

Data transfer, have you investigated bluetooth or ssh (sshdroid for
the phone)?

Stick with it and remember to have fun :)

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.6-2.10-desktop
up 1 day 20:45, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.07
CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU

Yes, the problem is Linux is slower to catch up on some hardware. I imagine it must be more difficult than on Windows, since being open-source and community-driven many companies might tend to let us "fend for ourselves and figure how to get their hardware working", while Windows gets most help instead.

On the bright side however, hardware that DOES work out of the box in openSUSE (and most does) sure works well. Almost everything else runs perfectly fine without the need for additional drivers and configuration. I have a PCI Wireless adapter for WLAN, a tiny Bluetooth adapter on USB, an old (but still good) USB gamepad, a WACOM tablet, a Logitech Wave Cordless kit (keyboard + mouse, this has the issue I mentioned in grub2), wireless headphones with microphone (uses a USB transmitter) and more. All of those worked the second I logged in and still do without any glitches. Not to mention the integrated motherboard components (like sound card, chipset, etc) and even my USB hub is detected and named properly. In Windows I have to set these up manually and find a driver for each, while Linux simply runs them. Once the built-in radeon driver will support modern 3D games at the same stability and performance, video cards will be in this list too.

I'm planning to see if my Galaxy S3 will connect through bluetooth and allow file transfers that way. Didn't know about sshdroid and I might look into that too. The problem is the USB connection with my device isn't established properly, and no MTP application can properly connect to the device. If anyone's interested my post can be found here: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/hardware/478602-cannot-connect-samsung-galaxy-s3-android-4-via-usb-cable.html

robin_listas
03-Oct-2012, 15:48
On 2012-10-03 15:26, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2492818 Wrote:
>>
>> It is the other way round. Linux has always been way more stable than
>> Windows. It has been my
>> experience since 1998, and I also come from the MSDos/Windows world.

> Maybe when someone is more familiar with either OS, it tends to seem
> more stable than the other because they know it better and are less
> likely to make mistakes (and can fix new issues more easily). Personally
> I have many problems in openSUSE that I never had in Windows, and I can
> actually list a few:

None of those problems you have are stability problems. Like clicking save on word and Windows
crashing :-p

Also notice the years I mentioned: I was a novice time ago, and Linux was always stable for me.
Problems, yes, of course.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

robin_listas
03-Oct-2012, 15:53
On 2012-10-03 16:36, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> malcolmlewis;2492879 Wrote:

> Yes, the problem is Linux is slower to catch up on some hardware. I
> imagine it must be more difficult than on Windows, since being
> open-source and community-driven many companies might tend to let us
> "fend for ourselves and figure how to get their hardware working", while
> Windows gets most help instead.

Yes, Linux takes longer to catch on some hardware, not always. On the other hand, once there is
support for a device, it stays longer. I know people that had to ditch their printer or
whatever because the new Windows had no drivers for them.

You have to be careful when you buy hardware that it does work in Linux first. And, if it does
work, it usually is better quality hardware and also works nicely in Windows.

> still do without any glitches. Not to mention the integrated motherboard
> components (like sound card, chipset, etc) and even my USB hub is
> detected and named properly. In Windows I have to set these up manually
> and find a driver for each, while Linux simply runs them.

Right, it is that way.

> Once the
> built-in radeon driver will support modern 3D games at the same
> stability and performance, video cards will be in this list too.

I doubt they will ever be.

Not everything works in Linux. Right now, I have to use a web page that is designed for IE -
and some things do not work in FF, not even in Windows. So is life. :-(

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

MirceaKitsune
04-Oct-2012, 02:21
robin_listas: From what I heard, the open-source radeon driver will be on that list eventually. AMD is working on it too, and it's possible they might switch the current proprietary driver for it at some point. But that's many years from now if anything. The problem with this driver is that things like hardware acceleration and other basic features for 3D support are not ready yet. I heard somewhere that there's experimental support for such, but no one told me how to enable it.

I have heard of cases where older hardware wouldn't work on Windows too, and actually had some myself. Certain hardware would require Windows 98 or XP drivers installed under Windows 7, and if they happened to be compatible the device would then work. Others wouldn't work at all, but it was rare. 3 or so years ago when I switched from XP to Win 7, my multimedia keyboard would no longer work because its latest drivers were for Windows 98, and using them was no longer possible after the upgrade. Linux deals nicely with this and wins again over Windows here. Best of all, even my HP scanner + printer hybrid works out of the box, and I can scan and print anything without a problem (and I just discovered I can see ink levels too :D ). But yes, before buying any new hardware I'll certainly ask if it's Linux compatible from now on.

RichardET
19-Jan-2013, 17:27
Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username and log into Windows.

This statement is misinformed. You can create local usernames if you wish, if you do not want to synch your user data with MS.

MirceaKitsune
19-Jan-2013, 17:37
This statement is misinformed. You can create local usernames if you wish, if you do not want to synch your user data with MS.

I remember hearing about this recently from someone else too. Haven't tested it since I have no plans to switch back to Windows (let alone Windows 8) but I'm glad if it's true.

hendersj
19-Jan-2013, 17:50
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 00:36:01 +0000, RichardET wrote:

> MirceaKitsune;2482631 Wrote:
>> Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username
>> and log into Windows.
>
> This statement is misinformed. You can create local usernames if you
> wish, if you do not want to synch your user data with MS.

Indeed it would be a pretty poor enterprise OS if the only option was to
create MS Live accounts to use it.

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

RichardET
19-Jan-2013, 17:58
On a side note to this general topic:
I wonder how many GNU/Linux users claim not to use MS because of concerns over privacy, thus opting for Linux, but still use Google+, Google mail, Google Search, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Facebook is essentially spyware. Why do all you Linux geeks hate Ballmer, but you are willing to help make Google & Facebook investors richer everyday?

Am I missing something here? Why is MS essentially the antichrist to hardcore Linux users, when most still use Google everyday and never consider how they might be misappropriating personal data? The mere fact they compile search statistics minute by minute should concern everyone; that data alone is extremely valuable.

This selective numbness to various threats is so typically human - for instance, many of us are afraid to fly but rarely give driving even a split second of concern.

MirceaKitsune
20-Jan-2013, 04:06
On a side note to this general topic:
I wonder how many GNU/Linux users claim not to use MS because of concerns over privacy, thus opting for Linux, but still use Google+, Google mail, Google Search, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Facebook is essentially spyware. Why do all you Linux geeks hate Ballmer, but you are willing to help make Google & Facebook investors richer everyday?

Am I missing something here? Why is MS essentially the antichrist to hardcore Linux users, when most still use Google everyday and never consider how they might be misappropriating personal data? The mere fact they compile search statistics minute by minute should concern everyone; that data alone is extremely valuable.

This selective numbness to various threats is so typically human - for instance, many of us are afraid to fly but rarely give driving even a split second of concern.

I'm not one of those people myself. I'm mostly against privacy-related things like websites asking for ID over the internet, or any program nosing into something it shouldn't be.

But there is a difference between privacy concerns in Windows and those of Facebook / Google+ / etc: Privacy issues in Windows are mostly over data being stolen without the user knowing... which is a fear I felt sometimes as well. On websites like Facebook however, the user chooses what to post, and most are aware that anything you put there can be seen by anyone. It is a willing choice. So people in the situation you mentioned may have privacy concerns over stuff they have on their drive, but feel safe using such social systems to post what they're sure is ok to be found.

I think everyone knows by now that at least for Facebook, the government can spy on all data and everything you post there... and that was actually part of why FB was invented. I even read that the founder was connected to the CIA... silly information of this sort is easy to spread but I'm totally not surprised if it's true (which it probably is). It's an ugly thing, but since I post only what I'm ok with being public I don't care directly.

RichardET
20-Jan-2013, 08:14
I have always been partial to Google, since they were early Linux adopters, but their use of my email content to push ads on me is concerning. This can only mean one thing - even one's email is being scrutinized, my private communications with other people is being read, as though I am using my employer's email system for personal affairs. Recently I rejoined Tucow's because they partner with Thunderbird - $20 a year for email, and no ads. I have not read their privacy policy, perhaps I should.

robin_listas
20-Jan-2013, 09:08
On 2013-01-20 16:16, RichardET wrote:
>
> I have always been partial to Google, since they were early Linux
> adopters, but their use of my email content to push ads on me is
> concerning. This can only mean one thing - even one's email is being
> scrutinized, my private communications with other people is being read,

Google is very open about this, it is described in their terms of use
and in their faqs. It is not read by humans, but by machines. It is not
very much different than email being displayed by a web server to you, a
machine is reading it. It just feigns ignorance of the contents.

Any ISP can read your email if they wish, regardless of the law may say:
email is not traveling on closed envelopes like paper mail. If you want
privacy, use encryption. Use closed envelopes.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

please_try_again
20-Jan-2013, 12:05
Why do all you Linux geeks hate Ballmer, but you are willing to help make Google & Facebook investors richer everyday?

Maybe because he's vulgar ...
Never been on Facebook in my life, most likely never will.
Have been on Tweeter only once - sorry, I was worried about Marcia MacMillan being sick
Loved Google 20 years ago (or so ...) and told everyone to give up Yahoo!, Altavista and suches...
Hate Google now and use duckduckgo. Give it a try!

please_try_again
20-Jan-2013, 12:13
Google is very open about this, it is described in their terms of use
and in their faqs. It is not read by humans, but by machines.




It's not true - or not entirely true.
I happen to know someone who worked for Google. They are not allowed to say of course.
If Google says that it is not read by humans, it is definitely a lie.

hendersj
20-Jan-2013, 12:43
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:16:01 +0000, RichardET wrote:

> This can only mean one thing - even one's email is being scrutinized, my
> private communications with other people is being read,
> as though I am using my employer's email system for personal affairs.

There is a difference between someone reading your e-mail and a baysian
analysis of the content to display potentially relevant ads.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
20-Jan-2013, 13:28
On 2013-01-20 20:16, please try again wrote:

> It's not true - or not entirely true.
> I happen to know someone who worked for Google. They are not allowed to
> say of course.
> If Google says that it is not read by humans, it is definitely a lie.

Well, I do not trust any ISP not to read my emails. I have worked on
telephone exchanges, and heard the stories about bored personnel on
night shifts pinching lines at random to listen... People are people,
ISP personnel can read my email just as easily.

Which is different of reading email on purpose by the company. If that
can be proved, they can get hefty penalties on many countries.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

dragonbite
21-Jan-2013, 07:18
On a side note to this general topic:
I wonder how many GNU/Linux users claim not to use MS because of concerns over privacy, thus opting for Linux, but still use Google+, Google mail, Google Search, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Facebook is essentially spyware. Why do all you Linux geeks hate Ballmer, but you are willing to help make Google & Facebook investors richer everyday?

Am I missing something here? Why is MS essentially the antichrist to hardcore Linux users, when most still use Google everyday and never consider how they might be misappropriating personal data? The mere fact they compile search statistics minute by minute should concern everyone; that data alone is extremely valuable.

This selective numbness to various threats is so typically human - for instance, many of us are afraid to fly but rarely give driving even a split second of concern.

I just remember how Picasa had to run in WINE, SketchUp was never ported and Music Manager had more features (and better stability) on Windows rather than Linux. Is there any product or "thing" Google did that they provided for Linux and not for Windows that Windows did not have an equivalent for? A lot of their actions seem to be less "FOR" Linux than just adding Linux to some of their Windows offerings.

glistwan
21-Jan-2013, 20:40
On a side note to this general topic:
I wonder how many GNU/Linux users claim not to use MS because of concerns over privacy, thus opting for Linux, but still use Google+, Google mail, Google Search, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Facebook is essentially spyware. Why do all you Linux geeks hate Ballmer, but you are willing to help make Google & Facebook investors richer everyday?

Am I missing something here? Why is MS essentially the antichrist to hardcore Linux users, when most still use Google everyday and never consider how they might be misappropriating personal data? The mere fact they compile search statistics minute by minute should concern everyone; that data alone is extremely valuable.

This selective numbness to various threats is so typically human - for instance, many of us are afraid to fly but rarely give driving even a split second of concern.
I've got nothing against Ballmer and I really like MS products. Win XP and Win 7 are really great. I'm also considering buying some windows phone but then again Android might be a better choice. Maybe I'm just not a Linux geek :)

Karmovorotin
25-Apr-2014, 00:46
Not on the short term.

But here's the thing: the end of XP support and the 8 fiasco have contributed to erode the absolute dominance of the market by Microsoft. It's unlikely the Redmond Guys will ever have a 95% market quota again. Or anyone else for that matter. But that erosion doesn't mean a downfall. And the growth of Linux on desktops is going to be slow. Mostly on older machines that can't run XP any longer but whose hardware is still in good shape.

On smartphones and tablets Android reigns supreme. Datacentres and servers are also mostly Linux-based. The only part of the computing market where Linux has not the #1 spot is the desktop/laptop market. The one that the plebians regard as "computing", but it's just a part of it. Maybe not even the biggest.

But don't worry. Emerging markets are going to need good computing solutions for a low total cost of ownership. And Linux offers a great advantage at that. It's going to be a slow and painful crawl, but as Africa, the Americas, China and Russia adopt Linux-based solutions as their standards many people will have to use Linux on the desktop. And the market share will grow to a good chunk of the market.

MirceaKitsune
25-Apr-2014, 03:35
Yeah, the end of Windows XP support might cause a few users to consider Linux rather than buying Windows 8 (I heard 7 is already off the market shelves too). I never really understood why Windows needed daily / weekly security updates though, and why it's so bad that Microsoft stopped offering them... not seeing these in Linux so I assume Windows is generally more easy to hack and needs its bricks cemented constantly?

Either way, it's been about an year and a half since I removed Windows and switched to openSUSE entirely. At this stage, I wouldn't get Windows again even if it magically became FOSS software. Although it's a matter of preference, I can't see what Windows has better over Linux precisely... except fewer bugs which I admit Linux frequently has, and that it's guaranteed to run the latest commercial games which WINE might not. I'm talking from a desktop perspective too... I usually play modern games (now with the free video drivers and MESA), do art and animation, etc.

It's possible that many don't switch to Linux because the stereotypes about it aren't that good, so some never actually try it before deciding. I see it like "my computer came with Windows, my friends and family use Windows, at work all machines have Windows... so why would I get into trouble to run an OS alien to me when all I need is a stable computer, especially when people say you must be a geek to understand it and it often has bugs". IMO, desktop Linux needs to make its voice heard somewhat more to people who aren't its users yet. Like encouraging corporations to switch their machines to it, or publicity spots on TV (saw some about Windows but never heard the word Linux in the media).

martin_helm
25-Apr-2014, 03:48
Am 25.04.2014 12:36, schrieb MirceaKitsune:
> Like encouraging
> corporations to switch their machines to it, or publicity spots on TV

That existed once upon a time by IBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7dTjpvakmA

--
PC: oS 13.1 x86_64 | i7-2600@3.40GHz | 16GB | KDE 4.11 | GTX 650 Ti
ThinkPad E320: oS 13.1 x86_64 | i3@2.30GHz | 8GB | KDE 4.11 | HD 3000
HTPC: oS 13.1 x86_64 | Celeron@1.8GHz | 2GB | Gnome 3.10 | HD 2500

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 04:13
On 2014-04-25 12:36, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> Yeah, the end of Windows XP support might cause a few users to consider
> Linux rather than buying Windows 8 (I heard 7 is already off the market
> shelves too). I never really understood why Windows needed daily /
> weekly security updates though,

Same as Linux :-)

> and why it's so bad that Microsoft
> stopped offering them... not seeing these in Linux so I assume Windows
> is generally more easy to hack and needs its bricks cemented constantly?

According to the Wikipedia, Windows XP was released on 2001, and
maintenance stopped on 2014. That's... what, 13 years of updates?

openSUSE does just a year and a half of updates, then "forces" you to
upgrade to the next release. The reason given is that to keep releasing
updates for a certain release becomes more difficult with time, till it
becomes exceedingly complicated or expensive and has to stop (evergreen
extends support (limited) for an extra year or two).

So that Microsoft fully maintained XP for over 12 years is an impressive
accomplishment!

:-) :-P

(SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)


I don't like Windows, but I have to recognize successes where due.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

MirceaKitsune
25-Apr-2014, 04:53
Same as Linux :-)

According to the Wikipedia, Windows XP was released on 2001, and
maintenance stopped on 2014. That's... what, 13 years of updates?

openSUSE does just a year and a half of updates, then "forces" you to
upgrade to the next release. The reason given is that to keep releasing
updates for a certain release becomes more difficult with time, till it
becomes exceedingly complicated or expensive and has to stop (evergreen
extends support (limited) for an extra year or two).

So that Microsoft fully maintained XP for over 12 years is an impressive
accomplishment!

:-) :-P

(SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)


I don't like Windows, but I have to recognize successes where due.

Oh... I'm not denying that. Keeping a Windows version as old as XP alive and updated until this year was indeed an impressive thing Microsoft did.

My only confusion was why Windows relied on weekly updates so much... apparently more than Linux. Back when I used Windows (XP to 7) there was a set of updates at least once a week, with the message "fix a security vulnerability that would allow an attacker to do this and that". openSUSE has weekly / monthly updates to important system components too... but most seem to be about fixing bugs, rarely mentioning security vulnerabilities. So logically, I'm assuming that Windows doesn't have such a secure foundation... because it needs patching every week to keep hackers away, while Linux mostly patches bugs and just occasionally security issues. Or at least that's the impression I got... sorry if I'm wrong.

Then again, since most people still use Windows, the bad guys probably only bother making viruses for it 90% of the time. Hence why IIRC, there aren't even any anti-virus programs for Linux, since they probably aren't needed. Does make me wonder how much of it is "Windows taking the heat instead" or "Linux being so secure you can't make a virus for it".

dragonbite
25-Apr-2014, 05:24
I think part of why Windows XP needed so many patches, especially at the latter half of its life, is that it existed long enough for vulnerabilities and more in-depth weaknesses to be probed, discovered and exploited. Apple took the hard step earlier when it moved to the Unix-base OS X.

Windows 7+, on the other hand, appears to be more secure and stable (and actually, as I see it, more Linux-like in the good parts). But Microsoft isn't (yet) going to be so dumb as to stretch out Windows 7's life as long as XP. I think they have learned their lesson and they would already be moving on fully to Windows 8 except Windows 8 has not been received so well in part due to its radical interface design.

Until Windows 8 (9?)+ is more adopted, including in Enterprises, they will keep Windows 7 (and the Windows 7 based Windows 2008 r2) going but they don't want it to last as long as XP.

Think of how often Vista comes up in routine computing anymore (not much, except as legacy system or system requirements).

I actually think that in Microsoft Windows decline, Chrome OS is going to grow significantly (maybe even more than Linux) for the consumer market and Apple products for developers (because that 1 device can triple-boot and thus enable development on all of the platforms). Enterprise servers will move more towards cloud-based solutions (which is why Microsoft is pushing so hard, but Linux has the lead) and BYOD (which will mean more tablets and Chromebooks in the Enterprise).

The people that are interested in Linux may increase some, but the casual users who may have looked at Linux as an alternative could move away to tablets, chromebooks or newer Windows.

That's my guess.

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 05:48
On 2014-04-25 13:56, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2639110 Wrote:

> Oh... I'm not denying that. Keeping a Windows version as old as XP alive
> and updated until this year was indeed an impressive thing Microsoft
> did.
>
> My only confusion was why Windows relied on weekly updates so much...
> apparently more than Linux. Back when I used Windows (XP to 7) there was
> a set of updates at least once a week, with the message "fix a security
> vulnerability that would allow an attacker to do this and that".
> openSUSE has weekly / monthly updates to important system components
> too... but most seem to be about fixing bugs, rarely mentioning security
> vulnerabilities.

But they are in fact security vulnerabilities. Traditionally on
SUSE/openSUSE, the "updates" repo only contained security related
patches. Later also important bugs were handled there.

If you have a look here:

[URL]http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-security-announce/2014-04/[URL]

Those are the official security patches published this month only. Some,
like the chromium update, is not labelled as "security", but if you look
at the text inside, it is.

Of course, that mail list is for several openSUSE and SUSE releases, so
you get more messages. But then, some mails are about several packages
or several distributions.


Then, most of the extra and external repos follow a different practice.
Instead of adding just the security patches needed, instead they update
packages to the next version - which solves the vulnerability as done
upstream, but also adds new features and new bugs and new problems (and
hopefully solve some old bugs and problems). Those updates are not
labelled as "security" updates, because most of them are mixed.

If you use "yast online update" or "zypper patch" you see the security
updates alone, or almost alone. If you use "apper", or "zypper up", or
yast, select "update to newer version if available" menu, then you see
all of them, mixed.

Mixed, in that many of them handle security issues at the same time as
new features and normal bug handling, so you don't easily know the
security issues they handle.


> So logically, I'm assuming that Windows doesn't have
> such a secure foundation... because it needs patching every week to keep
> hackers away, while Linux mostly patches bugs and just occasionally
> security issues. Or at least that's the impression I got... sorry if I'm
> wrong.

Windows is not as secure as Linux (arguable), but looking at the number
of updates published on each side is not that clear a proof. In fact,
from the Windows camp they point that Linux gets many more security
issues than Windows; but this is also a half truth, because often
Windows security issues are kept secret, while Linux works on the open.


> Then again, since most people still use Windows, the bad guys probably
> only bother making viruses for it 90% of the time.

Of course, it is much more profitable :-}

But making successful Linux viruses is actually difficult. There are
some Linux viruses, but none as "popular", meaning that they are
successful at spreading in the wild.

But there are other things than viruses.

> Hence why IIRC, there
> aren't even any anti-virus programs for Linux,

Actually, there are some. Whether they are actually needed, or that they
solve issues, is arguable. I have never seen one virus catch in Linux.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

nrickert
25-Apr-2014, 06:01
(I heard 7 is already off the market shelves too).

Dell is still selling Windows 7 computers. I think they are actually selling computers with Win8 professional, which is downgradeable to Win7 on the same Windows license. And they install the downgrade (Win7) at the factory, but provide Win8 media with it. The vendors know what sells, and it isn't Windows 8.


I never really understood why Windows needed daily / weekly security updates though, and why it's so bad that Microsoft stopped offering them... not seeing these in Linux so I assume Windows is generally more easy to hack and needs its bricks cemented constantly?

I just installed updates (using Yast online updates) this morning. That's one week from when I last installed updates. If you are not seeing updates on linux, then your system is out-of-date.


Although it's a matter of preference, I can't see what Windows has better over Linux precisely... except fewer bugs which I admit Linux frequently has, and that it's guaranteed to run the latest commercial games which WINE might not.

Software availability. There is software that only runs on Windows. If you need that software, then you will need to run Windows.

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 06:03
On 2014-04-25 14:26, dragonbite wrote:
> Windows 7+, on the other hand, appears to be more secure and stable (and
> actually, as I see it, more Linux-like in the good parts). But
> Microsoft isn't (yet) going to be so dumb as to stretch out Windows 7's
> life as long as XP. I think they have learned their lesson and they
> would already be moving on fully to Windows 8 except Windows 8 has not
> been received so well in part due to its radical interface design.

Mmm.

Moving from W7 to W8 is a choice of the customers, not of Microsoft.
They would love seeing it: more profits. They get a lot of pressure to
stretch the life of any version, because upgrading is costly for
customers: not only you have to upgrade Windows itself (and pay for it),
but upgrade many applications that stop working properly or at all (and
pay for them). Compose the problem with the fact that hardware
manufacturers often do not upgrade the drivers for the products they
sold two or three years ago to the next Windows version, forcing people
to buy new things like printers. Ah, and typically upgrading Windows
needs much more powerful computer.

That's what made people keep using an obsolete thing as W-XP for so many
years. Money. And Microsoft failed to force them, or did not really want
to force them. Thankfully. Maybe they are not so evil! :-p

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

dragonbite
25-Apr-2014, 06:58
(I heard 7 is already off the market shelves too)

I think they were going to first stop selling the retail version (on the shelf) this year, and then the OEMs were not allowed to sell them pre-installed at some later date. But like so many other things, either of those plans may have been reversed or extended.

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 07:48
On 2014-04-25 15:06, nrickert wrote:

> Software availability. There is software that only runs on Windows. If
> you need that software, then you will need to run Windows.

That's my case.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

HighBloodSugar
25-Apr-2014, 12:43
I could be in the minority, but I don't mind if people stick with Windows. I figure if it doesn't become as "popular" as Windows, the hackers won't target us as much. Just my opinion, though. I'm not against Windows in a militant sort of way, I just prefer openSuse. My mother has Windows 7, and it seems to work well, and my brother still has Vista, never had trouble with it. Then I have another brother that seems to hate Linux, though he never tried it. He once referred to it as "that useless Linux". I doubt Windows 8 will drive most people to Linux. Most people I know never even heard of it, let alone try it. There's no ads on TV about it, how would they know about it? And who has the funds to advertise it anyway?

hendersj
25-Apr-2014, 12:56
On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:56:01 +0000, MirceaKitsune wrote:

> Hence why IIRC, there aren't even any anti-virus programs for Linux,

ClamAV is a Linux anti-virus program, and it even detects Linux viruses.
They do exist, but are pretty rare.

It's more often used for virus scanning on file shares and e-mail that's
handled by Windows systems.

But AV programs certainly do exist for Linux.

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

nrickert
25-Apr-2014, 13:00
Windows 8 requires a Microsoft account to even create a local username and log into Windows.

I managed to avoid that. I'm using only local accounts (no Microsoft account) on my Windows 8.1 system. However, it is confusing and not obvious how to avoid the Microsoft account.


My question is how much this will cause Windows users to switch over to Linux.

It's a bit hard to guess. People are using particular software on Windows. If they find that it is not available on linux, they will continue to use Windows. That "Steam" is making is gaming software available on linux may well be as important as what Microsoft does.

nrickert
25-Apr-2014, 13:05
I could be in the minority, but I don't mind if people stick with Windows.

I agree with that. I don't try to persuade people to switch. I leave that to their decision.

consused
25-Apr-2014, 13:45
So that Microsoft fully maintained XP for over 12 years is an impressive
accomplishment!

:-) :-P

(SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)


I don't like Windows, but I have to recognize successes where due.
I agree. Good for you, and Windows is not my favourite OS either ( I keep Win7 though - pretty good). ;)

Fraser_Bell
25-Apr-2014, 13:45
Maybe because he's vulgar ...
Never been on Facebook in my life, most likely never will.
Have been on Tweeter only once - sorry, I was worried about Marcia MacMillan being sick
Loved Google 20 years ago (or so ...) and told everyone to give up Yahoo!, Altavista and suches...
Hate Google now and use duckduckgo. Give it a try!

Sounds much like me -- except, I never went on Tweeter, either.

https://duckduckgo.com/ is my preferred search, as well.

consused
25-Apr-2014, 13:52
I could be in the minority, but I don't mind if people stick with Windows. I figure if it doesn't become as "popular" as Windows, the hackers won't target us as much.
Well if you are in a minority, then so am I. :)

MadmanRB
25-Apr-2014, 14:38
After seeing the positive reviews for it I say Ubuntu may be the distro to look out for when concerning linuxes desktop growth in place of XP.
With many of the same websites that dissed 8 giving such praise to Ubuntu I can see that being a factor plus word of mouth.
But what is good for Ubuntu may be good for openSUSE as well, as once people look into other distros once ubuntu opens the floodgate its only a matter of time before openSUSE gets some new users.

malcolmlewis
25-Apr-2014, 16:19
[QUOTE]
On Fri 25 Apr 2014 08:46:01 PM CDT, consused wrote:

>
> (SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)
[/QUOTE
Hi
It's seven (7) years now but LTSS takes it to 13.
https://www.suse.com/support/policy.html

And it's not locked to your hardware either.....

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.11.10-7-desktop
If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
please show your appreciation and click on the star below... Thanks!

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 19:05
On 2014-04-25 22:06, nrickert wrote:
>
> HighBloodSugar;2639197 Wrote:
>> I could be in the minority, but I don't mind if people stick with
>> Windows.
>
> I agree with that. I don't try to persuade people to switch. I leave
> that to their decision.

Same here.

I'm happy to help switching, but they have to be convinced. Asking me
advice about migrating? Sure. I tell them the pros and cons, so that
they make their own decision and don't blame me if they are unhappy
later ;-)

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

robin_listas
25-Apr-2014, 19:15
On 2014-04-26 01:19, malcolmlewis wrote:

> On Fri 25 Apr 2014 08:46:01 PM CDT, consused wrote:
>
>> robin_listas;2639110 Wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> (SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)

> Hi
> It's seven (7) years now but LTSS takes it to 13.
> https://www.suse.com/support/policy.html
>
> And it's not locked to your hardware either.....

13 years? Impressive.

But if I remember right that's limited to a subset of the packages
(core) and only security issues.

Mmmm.... the link says that "Critical Security Updates -> optional". Not
clear what it means.

The intention is that you migrate the system:

«Long Term Service Pack Support allows you to maintain your current
operating system version as long as possible, preserving both the
stability and security of your data center, as you transition from one
service pack version to the next.»

And I suppose it is SLES, not SLED.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

malcolmlewis
25-Apr-2014, 20:29
On 2014-04-26 01:19, malcolmlewis wrote:

> On Fri 25 Apr 2014 08:46:01 PM CDT, consused wrote:
>
>> robin_listas;2639110 Wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> (SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)

> Hi
> It's seven (7) years now but LTSS takes it to 13.
> https://www.suse.com/support/policy.html
>
> And it's not locked to your hardware either.....

13 years? Impressive.

But if I remember right that's limited to a subset of the packages
(core) and only security issues.

Mmmm.... the link says that "Critical Security Updates -> optional". Not
clear what it means.

The intention is that you migrate the system:

«Long Term Service Pack Support allows you to maintain your current
operating system version as long as possible, preserving both the
stability and security of your data center, as you transition from one
service pack version to the next.»

And I suppose it is SLES, not SLED.

Hi
I would guess it's targeting the server rather than the desktop....

MirceaKitsune
26-Apr-2014, 04:08
Oh... I don't have anything against Windows or anyone using it. Some Windows versions are actually very good... like XP and 7. I mostly meant that at its core, I don't see nearly anything that Windows does better than most Linux distros. Its main advantage seems to be simply that "only Windows can run Windows software" (usually).

Bad things about Windows: You always install software by downloading the setup.exe from a website, making updating of programs very hard... compared to Linux's packaging systems (deb or rpm). Windows 8 added an automated application store of sorts, but it's hard-coded to Microsoft repositories and used in a commercial manner only... doesn't even compare. Next, Windows uses registry (Gnome does this too sadly) which gets bloated and makes the system harder to repair and bring back to speed... compared to each program relying only on their own settings (the case with at least KDE). You also need to install drivers for most hardware to work optimally, even for the motherboard chipset... in Linux almost everything works perfectly out of the box, except optionally installing a proprietary video driver if games don't run fast enough on MESA (no longer my case). Lastly, Windows feels like a big lump of various "solid" components... whereas in Linux each system component can be chosen and maintained separately (KDE / Gnome / Xfce desktop environment, Pulse / ALSA sound system, and much more). Lastly, viruses and hacking are much easier to do on Windows than on Linux. Don't think I should mention closed-source and commercial since that's an obvious disadvantage anyone is aware of.

Bad things about Linux: Much more buggy, although it's usually small and harmless bugs. Some might argue that stable distro releases are bug free, but I can confirm this isn't the case from experience (usually KDE has little obvious problems that come and go). Otherwise, the latest hardware might not always be compatible, especially with the free drivers included. For some distros, you need more geeky knowledge to maintain a Linux system... for openSUSE that's much less the case however, since there's a friendly GUI for everything. Other than that, it can't run Windows software... which isn't a fault of Linux, but a disadvantage to Windows having become more popular first back in the 90's.

Looking at it like this, I would say Linux clearly has a better architecture and the most advantages, and is better than Windows over a honest comparison. Sucks that more people don't get to try it out and see.

consused
26-Apr-2014, 04:30
[QUOTE]
On Fri 25 Apr 2014 08:46:01 PM CDT, consused wrote:

>
> (SLE has, I understand, up to 5 year of updates, if you pay)
[/QUOTE
Hi
It's seven (7) years now but LTSS takes it to 13.
https://www.suse.com/support/policy.html

And it's not locked to your hardware either.....


Hmm, I didn't write any of that, so what went wrong with your quoting apart from the missing BB code delimiter?

Fraser_Bell
26-Apr-2014, 12:39
... for openSUSE that's much less the case however, since there's a friendly GUI for everything ...


... and a Very Friendly and Helpfull Forum, when that isn't enough!;)

PiElle
28-Apr-2014, 11:31
Most people use Windows, because it's preinstalled on all computers, so it' ready for use ...
They don't need to use a different O.S. ... :|

Karmovorotin
03-May-2014, 07:20
Most people use Windows, because it's preinstalled on all computers, so it' ready for use ...
They don't need to use a different O.S. ... :|And that's why they usually think that installing Windows is easy: because they have never had to go through the pain in the behind which is waiting 2 whole hours for it to install. And after so long you can't even choose the size and number of partitions. Or the file system, for that matter.

Linux OTOH they know how long it takes (not more than half an hour on my laptop).

consused
03-May-2014, 07:34
And that's why they usually think that installing Windows is easy: because they have never had to go through the pain in the behind which is waiting 2 whole hours for it to install. And after so long you can't even choose the size and number of partitions. Or the file system, for that matter.

Linux OTOH they know how long it takes (not more than half an hour on my laptop).
Well try telling that to those who don't need another OS because Windows is pre-installed. On that point it's usually "no need - no sale".

nrickert
03-May-2014, 07:34
And after so long you can't even choose the size and number of partitions.

I used to wipe the disk, partition to my liking, then reinstall (without the crapware if possible).

But then the vendors stopped supplying install media. So I was forced to live with what came pre-installed. An annoying change.

robin_listas
03-May-2014, 08:33
On 2014-05-03 16:26, Karmovorotin wrote:


> And that's why they usually think that installing Windows is easy:
> because they have never had to go through the pain in the behind which
> is waiting 2 whole hours for it to install.

Very true.

> And after so long you can't
> even choose the size and number of partitions.

You can with the real install disk, not one from the computer manufacturer.

> Or the file system, for
> that matter.

Yes, you can: FAT, and NTFS, at least. Dynamic partition or classic.
Even software raid. Or flash backed raid, or rather viceversa. Why would
they want to install to, say, xfs or ext4? Those are not Windows
filesystems and do not support the features they need. Same thing as we
can not install Linux on NTFS, for the same reason.


> Linux OTOH they know how long it takes (not more than half an hour on my
> laptop).

Yes, installing Windows from scratch can take a day or two. No kidding.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

dragonbite
03-May-2014, 10:30
I used to wipe the disk, partition to my liking, then reinstall (without the crapware if possible).

But then the vendors stopped supplying install media. So I was forced to live with what came pre-installed. An annoying change.

This article may help you in some circumstances ... it provides the media but not the product key.
How to Download Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 Installation Media — Legally (http://www.howtogeek.com/186775/how-to-download-windows-7-8-and-8.1-installation-media-legally/)

Karmovorotin
03-May-2014, 10:41
On 2014-05-03 16:26, Karmovorotin wrote:


> And that's why they usually think that installing Windows is easy:
> because they have never had to go through the pain in the behind which
> is waiting 2 whole hours for it to install.

Very true.

> And after so long you can't
> even choose the size and number of partitions.

You can with the real install disk, not one from the computer manufacturer.

> Or the file system, for
> that matter.

Yes, you can: FAT, and NTFS, at least. Dynamic partition or classic.
Even software raid. Or flash backed raid, or rather viceversa. Why would
they want to install to, say, xfs or ext4? Those are not Windows
filesystems and do not support the features they need. Same thing as we
can not install Linux on NTFS, for the same reason.


> Linux OTOH they know how long it takes (not more than half an hour on my
> laptop).

Yes, installing Windows from scratch can take a day or two. No kidding.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)I downloaded (legally) Windows 7 from Digital River and Windows Server 2008 R2 from DreamSpark and I don't recall being able to choose other than NTFS, and the partition size was not as flexible as with any Linux distro. RAID yes, I admit.

Anyway downloading drivers and setting up everything after installing the OS was another pain in the rear quarters. Whereas on openSUSE after an hour everything is updated to the latest version and the proprietary drivers too. And I'm not talking about Tumbleweed, just plain good ole 13.1.

nrickert
03-May-2014, 11:55
This article may help you in some circumstances ... it provides the media but not the product key.
How to Download Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 Installation Media — Legally (http://www.howtogeek.com/186775/how-to-download-windows-7-8-and-8.1-installation-media-legally/)

Thanks. That might be useful at some time.

Thus far, I have been getting by using Acronis for backups. I can resize by restoring from a backup to a different sized partition (as long as it is big enough).

robin_listas
03-May-2014, 12:38
On 2014-05-03 20:56, nrickert wrote:
>
> dragonbite;2641041 Wrote:
>> This article may help you in some circumstances ... it provides
>> the media but not the product key.'
>> How to Download Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 Installation Media — Legally'
>> (http://tinyurl.com/lhbme7w)
>
> Thanks. That might be useful at some time.

+ thanks.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

robin_listas
03-May-2014, 12:53
On 2014-05-03 19:46, Karmovorotin wrote:

> I downloaded (legally) Windows 7 from Digital River and Windows Server
> 2008 R2 from DreamSpark and I don't recall being able to choose other
> than NTFS, and the partition size was not as flexible as with any Linux
> distro. RAID yes, I admit.

I don't remember the last time I tried installing Windows on FAT, it is
discouraged. Thus I'm not sure if Windows 7 will allow it. On previous
versions it was possible to install on FAT and later "upgrade" to NTFS,
but not the other way. It might be possible to force installation on FAT
if the partition is already formatted as FAT, but they have been for
years discouraging FAT for installation.

The choices of filesystem depend on what version of Windows you install.
But they don't have that many to offer, anyway: fat, exfat, and ntfs.


> Anyway downloading drivers and setting up everything after installing
> the OS was another pain in the rear quarters. Whereas on *openSUSE*
> after an hour everything is updated to the latest version and the
> proprietary drivers too. And I'm not talking about Tumbleweed, just
> plain good ole 13.1.

Absolutely!

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

consused
03-May-2014, 13:01
On 2014-05-03 20:56, nrickert wrote:
>
> dragonbite;2641041 Wrote:
>> This article may help you in some circumstances ... it provides
>> the media but not the product key.'
>> How to Download Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 Installation Media — Legally'
>> (http://tinyurl.com/lhbme7w)
>
> Thanks. That might be useful at some time.

+ thanks.
++ thanks dragonbite, might need it for my W7 sometime.

Paspie
30-Sep-2014, 01:35
Most people consider software and hardware the same thing (despite what they might have learnt in school) and even more don't think that they can change their operating system, at least without running into problems.

The only true break would be if 'SUSE or any number of other distros started being preloaded as an option by major vendors. Most of the work that has been done to date has been either in very limited markets, or are intended for development purposes, not for true users.

To be honest, I think it should stay that way, for now. There are a multitude of Linux platforms that are essentially fighting for the same slice of pie. Not one has quite made the break yet and catapulted into the mainstream, it's just been swings and roundabouts. If the number and market share of some of the more ghetto distros goes down, then the big names might become more viable. This can be achieved by big distros filling in the gaps otherwise filled by smaller distros (e.g more officially packaged desktop environments).

If the market gets to a point where Debian, Ubuntu (merged with Mint), 'SUSE and Slackware are the four home/business distros to choose from with all the desktop environments to choose from for each, then I think we'll be on our way there. I'm not saying other distros should not exist, I'm just saying these four should be all that is necessary for mainstream marketing. Four distros and about six desktops for each.

Paspie
30-Sep-2014, 01:54
I wouldn't suspect a huge surge as could have been attributed to Windows Vista. People have an up-to-date and stable alternative (Windows 7) and the initial "gotta have it -- oops! -- gotta get rid of it" process has gone through and people have been trained to wait for at least another release.

Windows 3.1 -- good
Windows 95 -- bad
Windows 98 -- good
Windows Me -- bad
Windows XP -- good
Windows Vista -- bad
Windows 7 -- good
Windows 8 -- (guess!)Hmmm, not quite as simple as that...

Windows 3.x - good
Windows 4.0 (95) - decent but slow
Windows 4.1 (98) - great!
Windows 4.9 (ME) - epic fail

That's the MS-DOS line, now how about the NT line?

NT 3.x - great, if you have a great computer
NT 4.0 - good, if you have a good computer
NT 5.0 (2000) - epic, especially with two processors
NT 5.1 (XP) - decent, but not as stable
NT 5.2 (2003) - so good it should have had Home and Pro 32-bit versions
NT 6.0 (Vista) - okay if you use classic theme
NT 6.1 (7) - better than okay
NT 6.2 (8) - Marmite
NT 6.3 (8.1) - Slightly less controversial Marmite

So it's not quite as black and white as it seems, most Windows versions of the last 20 years have had their strengths and weaknesses. Trouble is Microsoft's marketing keeps changing, they have not managed to keep a single vision or goal for more than five years or so for a very long time. You can even see this in the titles, they go from version numbers to year names to acronyms, to names and then back to numbers again. Many of the graphics and UI updates from XP onwards should have been optional packages and not included with the OS. But that's not something that'll drive potential buyers away; their PC already does everything they aspire to do with it and they have little reason to change or to care.

dragonbite
15-Oct-2014, 06:52
If Windows 9 (er... 10) continues the pattern, then it should be a good release!

malcolmlewis
15-Oct-2014, 10:03
On Wed 15 Oct 2014 01:56:02 PM CDT, dragonbite wrote:


If Windows 9 (er... 10) continues the pattern, then it should be a good
release!

Hi
I have it installed (windows preview) at present on one of the HP
laptops with secure boot enabled and dual booting with openSUSE. The
only thing I don't like is the push of data down to fill advertisements
etc... aside from that pretty much like windows 7 with the start and
windows 8 tiles (which I removed them all)...

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.11.10-21-desktop
If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
please show your appreciation and click on the star below... Thanks!

nrickert
15-Oct-2014, 10:31
The
only thing I don't like is the push of data down to fill advertisements
etc...

We won't have to worry about adware any more. Windows provides that for free :P

hendersj
15-Oct-2014, 19:32
On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 17:36:01 +0000, nrickert wrote:

> malcolmlewis;2669608 Wrote:
>> The only thing I don't like is the push of data down to fill
>> advertisements etc...
>
> We won't have to worry about adware any more. Windows provides that for
> free :P

I guess that's one way to kill the adware industry. ;)

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

jetchisel
15-Oct-2014, 20:14
Android on the desktop (when it happen) will probably the linux desktop for folks who defected from the other side lol!

nrickert
15-Oct-2014, 20:38
Android on the desktop (when it happen) will probably the linux desktop for folks who defected from the other side lol!

It will be on a tablet, rather than a desktop. And it is already happening.

jetchisel
15-Oct-2014, 20:57
It will be on a tablet, rather than a desktop. And it is already happening.
I said desktop and not tablet or any mobile device. As it is already mention here, win is a hit on desktop/laptop because it is pre-installed. Android is a hit on mobile devices because it is pre installed too. What will happen to the linux distro ? Well more hardware/software support for the linux. :)

Chrome os is just a front end to googles own cloud strategy and those CVE that involves remote access to servers is prolly why chrome is not gaining momentum on the desktop... but thats just my own opinion.

rich1974
15-Oct-2014, 21:19
wrong....
windows is so popular mainly because of the very large apps ecosystem. people use apps, OS is just a platform.
people wont switch to linux, it is much more easier, when you are coming from wind XP, to learn to use wind 8.1 instead of any linux distro.

jetchisel
15-Oct-2014, 21:31
wrong....
windows is so popular mainly because of the very large apps ecosystem. people use apps, OS is just a platform.
people wont switch to linux, it is much more easier, when you are coming from wind XP, to learn to use wind 8.1 instead of any linux distro.

Hahaha, use your apps with your refrigerator , coming from you people will not switch to linux? Hahaha

jetchisel
15-Oct-2014, 21:48
Im talking about Android on my previous post also
Folks that chose to use android on mobile devices are a linux user by choice without them knowing it and that will be the same situation when android made it to the desktop ;)

robin_listas
16-Oct-2014, 03:35
On 2014-10-16 06:56, jetchisel wrote:
>
> Im talking about Android on my previous post also
> Folks that chose to use android on mobile devices are a linux user by
> choice without them knowing it and that will be the same situation when
> android made it to the desktop ;)

Yes, there is some sort of Linux beneath, but you can not actually use
it. Most application depend heavily on the google layers on top of it,
which most are not even open sourced.

The "freedom" that is such an important part of Linux is not a part of
Android.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

robin_listas
16-Oct-2014, 03:43
On 2014-10-16 06:26, rich1974 wrote:
>
> wrong....
> windows is so popular mainly because of the very large apps ecosystem.
> people use apps, OS is just a platform.
> people wont switch to linux, it is much more easier, when you are coming
> from wind XP, to learn to use wind 8.1 instead of any linux distro.

People won't switch to anything, they simply use whatever their gadget
came with. I've seen Windows people using a Linux machine for the first
time without even noticing it was not Windows. They only mentioned it
being "weird Windows you have here".

As for the large ecosystem, Linux has a very large ecosystem, too. Only
when you need some specialized tools, or in some niches, you find they
are not here, but plain joe user mostly would not notice, specially if
the machine was bought with a good Linux flavour installed.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

dragonbite
16-Oct-2014, 05:38
wrong....
windows is so popular mainly because of the very large apps ecosystem. people use apps, OS is just a platform.
people wont switch to linux, it is much more easier, when you are coming from wind XP, to learn to use wind 8.1 instead of any linux distro.

People don't "use Windows". They use applications X, Y and Z and if they happen to require Windows then they "run Windows". They aren't there debating the pro's and con's of choosing Windows or Apple or Linux unless it is something philosophically important and usually that they know somebody to help champion the change.

My wife uses MS Publisher. It only runs on Windows.

At the same time, she wishes she could have Shotwell on Windows because she likes, and is more familiar, with the interface from using the Desktop Linux before getting her laptop.

She is a candidate to use Linux if the applications she uses were to work on Linux. Then again, she also has me advocating Linux too.

The kids, however, use Linux most of the time except when running a game that hasn't worked on Linux yet (despite being a "Gold" status in Wine Db). If I get that game to run on our Linux box(es) then they wouldn't touch Windows except when they have to in school.

I don't think there are any real "killer apps" that draw people to Android or iPhone yet, that is not available on other platforms. So a lot of the competition there is hardware-related (hardware capabilities, hardware-OS integration, etc.)

malcolmlewis
16-Oct-2014, 06:03
On Thu 16 Oct 2014 12:46:01 PM CDT, dragonbite wrote:


rich1974;2669701 Wrote:
> wrong....
> windows is so popular mainly because of the very large apps ecosystem.
> people use apps, OS is just a platform.
> people wont switch to linux, it is much more easier, when you are
> coming from wind XP, to learn to use wind 8.1 instead of any linux
> distro.

People don't "use Windows". They use applications X, Y and Z and if they
happen to require Windows then they "run Windows". They aren't there
debating the pro's and con's of choosing Windows or Apple or Linux
unless it is something philosophically important and usually that they
know somebody to help champion the change.

My wife uses MS Publisher. It only runs on Windows.

At the same time, she wishes she could have Shotwell on Windows because
she likes, and is more familiar, with the interface from using the
Desktop Linux before getting her laptop.

She is a candidate to use Linux if the applications she uses were to
work on Linux. Then again, she also has me advocating Linux too.

The kids, however, use Linux most of the time except when running a game
that hasn't worked on Linux yet (despite being a "Gold" status in Wine
Db). If I get that game to run on our Linux box(es) then they wouldn't
touch Windows except when they have to in school.

I don't think there are any real "killer apps" that draw people to
Android or iPhone yet, that is not available on other platforms. So a
lot of the competition there is hardware-related (hardware capabilities,
hardware-OS integration, etc.)




Hi
Have you looked at crossover for MS Publisher? Should try the trial
version?

I think the major shift aside from end user applications is the push to
also make it an advertisement platform since it's a somewhat captive
medium (at least with a TV, you can change channels or hit the mute).

I need to setup wireshark and see how much crift comes down the wire I
don't want...

I feel sorry for the folks on limited bandwidth and data caps....

--
Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.11.10-21-desktop
If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
please show your appreciation and click on the star below... Thanks!

jetchisel
16-Oct-2014, 07:56
On 2014-10-16 06:56:

Yes, there is some sort of Linux beneath, but you can not actually use
it. Most application depend heavily on the google layers on top of it,
which most are not even open sourced.

The "freedom" that is such an important part of Linux is not a part of
Android.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Windows refugee wont mind or even bother with that most probably :). That's why Android is going to be a hit on the desktop when it actually happen
The only side effect is more hardware/software support for the linux distros.

robin_listas
16-Oct-2014, 08:13
On 2014-10-16 16:56, jetchisel wrote:
> robin_listas;Wrote:
>> On 2014-10-16 06:56:
>>
>> Yes, there is some sort of Linux beneath, but you can not actually use
>> it. Most application depend heavily on the google layers on top of it,
>> which most are not even open sourced.
>>
>> The "freedom" that is such an important part of Linux is not a part of
>> Android.

> Windows refugee wont mind or even bother with that probably :)

Very true.

But those people that are interested initially on Android because "it is
based in Linux" will be disappointed.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

jetchisel
17-Oct-2014, 01:41
>Very true.

>But those people that are interested initially on Android because "it is
>based in Linux" will be disappointed.

Time will tell the whole story :)
One can play with it's shell which is mksh you know...

jetchisel
17-Oct-2014, 19:04
The man pages for mksh just in case some of you are interested :)


https://www.mirbsd.org/MirOS/dist/mir/mksh/mksh.pdf

https://www.mirbsd.org/MirOS/dist/mir/mksh/mksh.pdf

or the html version.


https://www.mirbsd.org/htman/i386/man1/mksh.htm

https://www.mirbsd.org/htman/i386/man1/mksh.htm

I have not played with it much though :(

fremont
27-Oct-2014, 01:09
I am windows user for long time. It's true that windows 8 is not good as windows 7. However, you will get use to it when you use it often.
If I plan to switch at Linux it will be because on security reason.

robin_listas
22-May-2015, 17:24
On 2014-10-16 14:46, dragonbite wrote:

> I don't think there are any real "killer apps" that draw people to
> Android or iPhone yet, that is not available on other platforms.

Yes, there are.

It is not a single application, but a bunch of them, designed to work on
hand-held mobile devices, with some extra hardware like gps and position
sensors, camera, telephone...

Things like maps and navigation, applications that take advantage of
knowing the exact location plus internet. Think a gps tracker, for
instance. A compass. A map of the stars that detects where you are
looking and displays the correct view of the sky. Even commercials that
know where you are, can have interest for some people.

A calendar synced with all your devices. email on the street. An
applications that warns you of rainfall is imminent. Or the weather
report for your location.

An application that tell you the cheapest gas station near your
location. Or where to find a café.

A translator from other languages. Take a photo of something and
translate it.

Dictate instead of write.

Access your bank anywhere, make orders. Control gadgets on your home,
perhaps your security cameras while away.


Or applications for instant messaging anywhere; here WhatsApp is very
popular, so much so that it caused important losses to phone companies:
instead of paying 15 cents per SMS, we have unlimited number of
messages, big as you can type, plus photos, audio, videos, etc. This
particular App has convinced people I know personally to upgrade from a
plain phone to an smartphone, sending lots of messages; people that
haven't touched a computer in their life. Yes, I would call WhatsApp a
killer app in Spain.

And they are very simple to use. I don't know anything similar in Linux.
In Windows I dunno, but I would never buy a Windows phone, LOL.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

malcolmlewis
22-May-2015, 21:00
I don't think there are any real "killer apps" that draw people to Android or iPhone yet, that is not available on other platforms. So a lot of the competition there is hardware-related (hardware capabilities, hardware-OS integration, etc.)
Hi
'Killer' being the operative word here... smartphones by their design are killers, folks reply to facebook, taking a selfie, sending an sms etc whilst driving and some even while walking or running...

hendersj
22-May-2015, 23:39
On Sat, 23 May 2015 04:06:02 +0000, malcolmlewis wrote:

> dragonbite;2669751 Wrote:
>>
>> I don't think there are any real "killer apps" that draw people to
>> Android or iPhone yet, that is not available on other platforms. So a
>> lot of the competition there is hardware-related (hardware
>> capabilities,
>> hardware-OS integration, etc.)
> Hi 'Killer' being the operative word here... smartphones by their design
> are killers, folks reply to facebook, taking a selfie, sending an sms
> etc whilst driving and some even while walking or running...

Multifactor authentication is something that could really become a
serious killer app for mobile devices.

Enter a set of user credentials, and after that authentication, use your
phone as a second factor for authentication.

That's a real thing - I use it every day myself (my employer makes a
product that does just this, in fact).

It's incredibly cool tech.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
23-May-2015, 17:44
On 2015-05-23 08:39, Jim Henderson wrote:

> Enter a set of user credentials, and after that authentication, use your
> phone as a second factor for authentication.
>
> That's a real thing - I use it every day myself (my employer makes a
> product that does just this, in fact).

Some banks here use that for money transfer.
I order a transfer using internet, maybe a phone app.
The bank sends an SMS with a code to the registered phone.
I type the code in the web page or app.
The transfer proceeds.

There are other things like NFC, but it has not yet taken off.

As for IDs, they are talking of using full face recognition combined
with other things (specially to make sure the subject is alive). No more
need for passwords.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

hendersj
23-May-2015, 20:21
On Sun, 24 May 2015 00:44:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-05-23 08:39, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>> Enter a set of user credentials, and after that authentication, use
>> your phone as a second factor for authentication.
>>
>> That's a real thing - I use it every day myself (my employer makes a
>> product that does just this, in fact).
>
> Some banks here use that for money transfer.

Banking is an industry my employer is gaining in popularity with.

> I order a transfer using internet, maybe a phone app.
> The bank sends an SMS with a code to the registered phone.
> I type the code in the web page or app.
> The transfer proceeds.

My employer's product uses a slider in an app that's contacted after a
password authentication takes place. It's a really simple and elegant
solution.

> There are other things like NFC, but it has not yet taken off.
>
> As for IDs, they are talking of using full face recognition combined
> with other things (specially to make sure the subject is alive). No more
> need for passwords.

Actually full face recognition or anything else like that isn't necessary
with MFA - unless the banking app (or whatever) is on the phone (ie, your
first factor and second factor need to not be entered using the same
device).

When I first looked at our product, I thought "why a slider? Why not
something like RSA SecurID that gives you an OTP to enter?" (which is
what we fall back to, actually - just because we can't contact the app on
the registered mobile device doesn't mean the user doesn't have it).

The point is that you are demonstrating that you are in possession of the
second device. Whether you enter a number sent via SMS, an OTP generated
by the phone and the remote authentication system, or just slide a
slider, what you're demonstrating is that you meet the "what I have"
security criteria as a second factor (the password you enter meets the
"what I know" criteria).

It's actually trivial to add additional factors, for example, using
geolocation to identify "where you are" (as an additional factor).

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
24-May-2015, 05:43
On 2015-05-24 05:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 24 May 2015 00:44:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:


> Actually full face recognition or anything else like that isn't necessary
> with MFA - unless the banking app (or whatever) is on the phone (ie, your
> first factor and second factor need to not be entered using the same
> device).

Probably for physical doors, or bank in the wall holes.


> The point is that you are demonstrating that you are in possession of the
> second device.

Ah, I see.


> It's actually trivial to add additional factors, for example, using
> geolocation to identify "where you are" (as an additional factor).

That one can backfire easily.

A relative was here for a visit, from across the ocean. Suddenly her
credit card stopped working, and got a phone call from home. I think she
had no mobile phone at the time.

Apparently, the bank manager had tried to reach her at home, and not
being able to, blocked her credit card because he was seeing purchases
from the other side of the globe and thought the card was stolen. Took
many expensive phone calls to reinstate the card.


On the other hand, someone stole "virtually" my father credit card. I
think they placed a camera on the credit card hole in the wall of the
bank, and a little gadget that reads the magnetic card as you place it
in the slot. The camera records the PIN code. A popular theft here, I
learned later.

The tell tale was two drafts of 600€ on two days at a location some 50
km away from our city, at a time when my father was in hospital.

I only managed the bank to return half of it, even if it was their fault
entirely for not providing secure methods (a camera and reader on their
premises, false identification of owner at another site). They claimed
my father had not protected his pin and card enough. No video surveillance.


Face recognition would have stopped this one.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

hendersj
24-May-2015, 13:27
On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:43:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-05-24 05:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2015 00:44:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>
>> Actually full face recognition or anything else like that isn't
>> necessary with MFA - unless the banking app (or whatever) is on the
>> phone (ie, your first factor and second factor need to not be entered
>> using the same device).
>
> Probably for physical doors, or bank in the wall holes.

Yes.

>> It's actually trivial to add additional factors, for example, using
>> geolocation to identify "where you are" (as an additional factor).
>
> That one can backfire easily.

Which is why at the moment, it's not a common thing used in the public.
But for corporate use, it can be very useful - you can't access certain
corporate resources unless you're on site (or working from a registered
home office). If you try to access an internal source code repository
from the local Starbucks, you're probably not on a secure network, so
access should be denied.

> A relative was here for a visit, from across the ocean. Suddenly her
> credit card stopped working, and got a phone call from home. I think she
> had no mobile phone at the time.
>
> Apparently, the bank manager had tried to reach her at home, and not
> being able to, blocked her credit card because he was seeing purchases
> from the other side of the globe and thought the card was stolen. Took
> many expensive phone calls to reinstate the card.

That's actually a good thing. I've had that happen myself - my card was
used in a different country, and the credit card company blocked use
until it could confirm I was using it. (I was, this was in Canada, and I
had gone up for work).

> On the other hand, someone stole "virtually" my father credit card. I
> think they placed a camera on the credit card hole in the wall of the
> bank, and a little gadget that reads the magnetic card as you place it
> in the slot. The camera records the PIN code. A popular theft here, I
> learned later.
>
> The tell tale was two drafts of 600€ on two days at a location some 50
> km away from our city, at a time when my father was in hospital.
>
> I only managed the bank to return half of it, even if it was their fault
> entirely for not providing secure methods (a camera and reader on their
> premises, false identification of owner at another site). They claimed
> my father had not protected his pin and card enough. No video
> surveillance.
>
>
> Face recognition would have stopped this one.

Lots of things would have stopped it, including deactivating the card
pending a verification that the charges were legitimate.

Facial recognition technologies today are not difficult to fool - and
when buying biometric devices at scale to deal with deployments like
banks or retail outlets use, inexpensive is the way the companies tend to
buy. I worked for a retail company who was moving to fingerprint
biometrics in their pharmacies, and the ingredients needed to fool the
type of reader we were testing were on sale *in the store*.

Many facial recognition tools are fooled by a photograph - the technology
isn't mature enough. But proving you're holding a device as a second
factor? That's something available today, and actually very simple to
implement with our product. ;)

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
24-May-2015, 17:04
On 2015-05-24 22:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:43:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:


>> A relative was here for a visit, from across the ocean. Suddenly her
>> credit card stopped working, and got a phone call from home. I think she
>> had no mobile phone at the time.
>>
>> Apparently, the bank manager had tried to reach her at home, and not
>> being able to, blocked her credit card because he was seeing purchases
>> from the other side of the globe and thought the card was stolen. Took
>> many expensive phone calls to reinstate the card.
>
> That's actually a good thing. I've had that happen myself - my card was
> used in a different country, and the credit card company blocked use
> until it could confirm I was using it. (I was, this was in Canada, and I
> had gone up for work).

Yes and no, because in this case they blocked this person access to her
money (and you know that people used to credit cards travel short of
paper notes). She could not pay anything. She was lucky that she was not
traveling alone, and that she was not in a hotel, that would demand
payment. You know: far from home, no hotel, no food, no transport, no
nothing. Without money you can not even phone your bank!

Not a nice situation at all. The company protected their money, not the
client. Because if the card had been stolen, they would have to pay for
it, not the client. That's what they were afraid of. They acted on their
own self interest causing damage to their client.




> Many facial recognition tools are fooled by a photograph - the technology
> isn't mature enough. But proving you're holding a device as a second
> factor? That's something available today, and actually very simple to
> implement with our product. ;)

Well, on the TV news the other day here they said that it was a new
Spanish development that detected if the face was alive or not. I think
it looks for the pulse in veins, but I'm not sure. Go figure.

Certainly any biometrics most ensure whatever they measure is alive: the
movies are full of examples with eyes, fingers, and other grizzlies (no,
perhaps that's not the correct spelling, I'm afraid...)


--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

hendersj
25-May-2015, 17:12
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:04:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-05-24 22:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 May 2015 12:43:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>
>>> A relative was here for a visit, from across the ocean. Suddenly her
>>> credit card stopped working, and got a phone call from home. I think
>>> she had no mobile phone at the time.
>>>
>>> Apparently, the bank manager had tried to reach her at home, and not
>>> being able to, blocked her credit card because he was seeing purchases
>>> from the other side of the globe and thought the card was stolen. Took
>>> many expensive phone calls to reinstate the card.
>>
>> That's actually a good thing. I've had that happen myself - my card
>> was used in a different country, and the credit card company blocked
>> use until it could confirm I was using it. (I was, this was in Canada,
>> and I had gone up for work).
>
> Yes and no, because in this case they blocked this person access to her
> money (and you know that people used to credit cards travel short of
> paper notes). She could not pay anything. She was lucky that she was not
> traveling alone, and that she was not in a hotel, that would demand
> payment. You know: far from home, no hotel, no food, no transport, no
> nothing. Without money you can not even phone your bank!

And if it hadn't been her, she would have thought it a good thing that
they didn't just keep letting charges go through. Not good for her, not
good for the bank - just good for the thieves.

> Not a nice situation at all. The company protected their money, not the
> client. Because if the card had been stolen, they would have to pay for
> it, not the client. That's what they were afraid of. They acted on their
> own self interest causing damage to their client.

It's a reasonable business concern, and a standard practice for banks
now. People traveling outside their normal "spaces" need to be aware of
this and be prepared for it.

I've been inconvenienced by this myself - when I was starting to travel
for work, my corporate Amex got suspended for a similar reason - I hadn't
been to NYC yet. I got to the hotel (right on Times Square) pretty late
at night, and the card had been suspended pending verification - and I
was after hours at the hotel (about 10 PM) and unable to get cell
reception in the lobby (for this hotel, that was several floors up).

The hotel was good about it, and checked me in anyways, and we sorted it
out the next morning.

>> Many facial recognition tools are fooled by a photograph - the
>> technology isn't mature enough. But proving you're holding a device as
>> a second factor? That's something available today, and actually very
>> simple to implement with our product. ;)
>
> Well, on the TV news the other day here they said that it was a new
> Spanish development that detected if the face was alive or not. I think
> it looks for the pulse in veins, but I'm not sure. Go figure.

There are always ways to beat biometrics.

> Certainly any biometrics most ensure whatever they measure is alive: the
> movies are full of examples with eyes, fingers, and other grizzlies (no,
> perhaps that's not the correct spelling, I'm afraid...)

The movies don't generally reflect the reality of how technology works -
and are a poor example to reference.

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
25-May-2015, 19:58
On 2015-05-26 02:12, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:04:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:


> And if it hadn't been her, she would have thought it a good thing that
> they didn't just keep letting charges go through. Not good for her, not
> good for the bank - just good for the thieves.

It depends on the laws of the country. On several countries, the bank is
responsible, not the client, unless they can prove that the client did
not properly kept the card and the pin safe.



> It's a reasonable business concern, and a standard practice for banks
> now. People traveling outside their normal "spaces" need to be aware of
> this and be prepared for it.

Well, the bank has to tell their clients in advance that they have to
tell them that they are going to travel. Not surprise them.


>> Certainly any biometrics most ensure whatever they measure is alive: the
>> movies are full of examples with eyes, fingers, and other grizzlies (no,
>> perhaps that's not the correct spelling, I'm afraid...)
>
> The movies don't generally reflect the reality of how technology works -
> and are a poor example to reference.

I meant that on the movies they cut the finger or hand, and put the
bloody hand on top of the scanner and it works. Or worse, remove the
eye... which makes me turn my head away on the cinema.

I'd hate banks and such using biometric systems that could be bypassed
by the thieves cutting my finger. Or worse. Not because they'd get my
money, but because they'd cut my finger. Or worse. Obviously. :-}


Yes, I know that movies are not realistic. It spoils the enjoyment when
they try to be clever, precisely in an area where you know a lot, and
you see clearly the falsehood.


As a high school student, I got mad when a James Bond movie translated
the English "silicon" for the Spanish "silicona", which happens to mean
"silicone" in English. At the time I was starting with electronics, and
while many people here didn't notice a thing, it got me mad - because I
noticed the huge mistake. Several movies made the same one.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

hendersj
25-May-2015, 22:57
On Tue, 26 May 2015 02:58:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-05-26 02:12, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:04:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>
>> And if it hadn't been her, she would have thought it a good thing that
>> they didn't just keep letting charges go through. Not good for her,
>> not good for the bank - just good for the thieves.
>
> It depends on the laws of the country. On several countries, the bank is
> responsible, not the client, unless they can prove that the client did
> not properly kept the card and the pin safe.

In the US, the CC company's insurance company is responsible for covering
most costs. But you'll probably find that "it depends" is applicable in
most countries - hanging the CC company on the hook all the time leads to
potential fraud from actual cardholders using their own accounts (by
claiming the card was stolen, for example). It's never as simple as it
seems.

>> It's a reasonable business concern, and a standard practice for banks
>> now. People traveling outside their normal "spaces" need to be aware
>> of this and be prepared for it.
>
> Well, the bank has to tell their clients in advance that they have to
> tell them that they are going to travel. Not surprise them.

Generally they do. The bank in this case *probably* has a record of
sending something out that says that - but they can't force consumers to
read privacy statement updates or other account information updates that
are mailed out. All the bank generally has to do is be able to show they
sent a notification, and I'd be surprised in this case if they hadn't
actually sent one out.

>>> Certainly any biometrics most ensure whatever they measure is alive:
>>> the movies are full of examples with eyes, fingers, and other
>>> grizzlies (no,
>>> perhaps that's not the correct spelling, I'm afraid...)
>>
>> The movies don't generally reflect the reality of how technology works
>> -
>> and are a poor example to reference.
>
> I meant that on the movies they cut the finger or hand, and put the
> bloody hand on top of the scanner and it works. Or worse, remove the
> eye... which makes me turn my head away on the cinema.

Same here, generally - but the thing about movies is that they are
fantasy and generally not representative of the real world.

I'm sure you know that.

There *are* biometric readers that depend on things like body temperature
and pulse (some high-end fingerprint readers do that). They're quite
expensive, generally, and buying them in large quantities is not
economically feasible.

> I'd hate banks and such using biometric systems that could be bypassed
> by the thieves cutting my finger. Or worse. Not because they'd get my
> money, but because they'd cut my finger. Or worse. Obviously. :-}

Indeed. Any security measure put in place can be thwarted by a motivated-
enough criminal. Security is generally a balance.

> Yes, I know that movies are not realistic. It spoils the enjoyment when
> they try to be clever, precisely in an area where you know a lot, and
> you see clearly the falsehood.

Yep. I'm sure for lawyers, watching movies like The Firm or A Few Good
Men probably causes a fair amount of frustration over the inaccuracy of
how their profession is represented. It's something probably most
professions have in common.

> As a high school student, I got mad when a James Bond movie translated
> the English "silicon" for the Spanish "silicona", which happens to mean
> "silicone" in English. At the time I was starting with electronics, and
> while many people here didn't notice a thing, it got me mad - because I
> noticed the huge mistake. Several movies made the same one.

Reminds me of Eddie Izzard describing translating some of his material
into French. "Transvestite" got mistranslated to "Travesty" - much
hilarity ensued.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

hcvv
26-May-2015, 01:34
Well, the bank has to tell their clients in advance that they have to
tell them that they are going to travel. Not surprise them.

My bank blocks my (debit) card by default for usage outside Europe (I am not sure if it is the EC or geographical, but the exact definition is on there website). I can deblock this using my personal login giving a start and end date. Thus I am able to deblock for say my holiday and a few days extra. It stopped a lot of those spying of card strips and pin codes and then taking cash somewhere in South America cases.

The reading of card strips is also much down now because of a redesign of the readers and more awareness of the users (there is a message: do only use this as the reader looks like this (with picture) on the ATMs).

dragonbite
26-May-2015, 05:38
Last year some popular big-box stores reported that a lot of credit card information was stolen during the beginning of their biggest shopping season.

The thieves were smart; they sold the credit cards numbers based on geographical location so that somebody from your area would have purchased your card and unless you carefully check your statements, you are none the wiser.

Somebody from our area got a nice computer, I assume, from our credit card company because it wasn't us. (of course because of the timing, I had to ask my wife if she was buying a new computer for me for Christmas and sadly she said "no" so I knew it was stolen numbers. I was hopeful ;)
)

In that circumstance, maybe the companies can flag a card because it is used in 2 locations miles apart at too quick of a time frame but that doesn't take into account online shopping.

I am thinking about sticking with cash in my mattress!

hcvv
26-May-2015, 05:53
I am thinking about sticking with cash in my mattress!
It is always wise to have some backup. And that was the error of the lady Carlos told us about above. She apparently had no backup scheme.

dragonbite
26-May-2015, 06:04
It is always wise to have some backup. And that was the error of the lady Carlos told us about above. She apparently had no backup scheme.

That is true. I haven't traveled outside the USA, but I do carry at least some cash with me when I'm on vacation. I just don't know how much of a hassle it is to get cash for another country when visiting, but some day I hope to learn. ;)

hcvv
26-May-2015, 06:25
That is true. I haven't traveled outside the USA, but I do carry at least some cash with me when I'm on vacation. I just don't know how much of a hassle it is to get cash for another country when visiting, but some day I hope to learn. ;)
Often you can by some cash (just for the case) of the destination country at home (e.g. on the airport). Also at arrival changing and/or ATM at the airport is convenient (depending on the country you will need cash for your cab right outside the airport already). But $ bills will be accepted in most countries (maybe not at the best rate, but again we talk about an urgency situation).

And when not traveling alone, there are such obvious things like share the money between the two, carry a copy of the important passport pages of a partner (and traveling alone, having such copies somewhere in your luggage is not a bad idea either). Etc. All very logical. but many people do stop thinking logical before they go traveling. :'(

hendersj
26-May-2015, 09:35
On Tue, 26 May 2015 13:06:02 +0000, dragonbite wrote:

> hcvv;2712115 Wrote:
>> It is always wise to have some backup. And that was the error of the
>> lady Carlos told us about above. She apparently had no backup scheme.
>
> That is true. I haven't traveled outside the USA, but I do carry at
> least some cash with me when I'm on vacation. I just don't know how
> much of a hassle it is to get cash for another country when visiting,
> but some day I hope to learn. ;)

There is nothing more surprising than going on an international trip and
finding out that the credit card you intended to use is completely
unknown in the country you're visiting.

Fortunately, we had a backup available. ;)

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

robin_listas
26-May-2015, 11:54
On 2015-05-26 10:36, hcvv wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2712036 Wrote:
>>
>> Well, the bank has to tell their clients in advance that they have to
>> tell them that they are going to travel. Not surprise them.
>>
> My bank blocks my (debit) card by default for usage outside Europe (I am
> not sure if it is the EC or geographical, but the exact definition is on
> there website). I can deblock this using my personal login giving a
> start and end date. Thus I am able to deblock for say my holiday and a
> few days extra. It stopped a lot of those spying of card strips and pin
> codes and then taking cash somewhere in South America cases.

I'll have to remember on my next travel :-}

> The reading of card strips is also much down now because of a redesign
> of the readers and more awareness of the users (there is a message: do
> only use this as the reader looks like this (with picture) on the ATMs).

Some of the banks here use a reader with a semitransparent piece just
where the card is inserted, in a shape made of curves, that makes pretty
difficult to place the fake reader on top, I'd guess.

And they started to place cameras, which previously they did not. A 2 mm
hole in the machine, pretty obvious to notice when you are looking.
Seems like a defect in the lettering, a paper behind a transparent plastic.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

robin_listas
26-May-2015, 11:54
On 2015-05-26 14:56, hcvv wrote:
>
> dragonbite;2712110 Wrote:
>>
>> I am thinking about sticking with cash in my mattress!
> It is always wise to have some backup. And that was the error of the
> lady Carlos told us about above. She apparently had no backup scheme.

Her partner was the backup :-)

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

robin_listas
26-May-2015, 12:04
On 2015-05-26 15:26, hcvv wrote:

> Often you can by some cash (just for the case) of the destination
> country at home (e.g. on the airport).

Depends. My bank can get me dollars or other things if I ask a week or
more in advance.

So when I returned home, I kept some instead of changing them back to
pesetas.

Then, on my next trip to Canada a decade later the shops were surprised
at how old the design of my bills were :-)

I believe that in the US is or was normal to keep the same design of the
bills for decades. But canadian dollars did change.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

BSDuser
27-Aug-2015, 04:06
These threads are amazing!

Here is a sample from the first posting within this thread (#1): "I'm a Windows user for over 15 years, and planning to switch to OpenSuse once I figure some things out. I've been using Windows 7 in the last years and planned switching to Windows 8, until I heard some bad news about it."

Now from the most recent post (#126): "Depends. My bank can get me dollars or other things if I ask a week or
more in advance. So when I returned home, I kept some instead of changing them back to
pesetas.Then, on my next trip to Canada a decade later the shops were surprised
at how old the design of my bills were :-)"

But to answer the first posters question - no, I don't think you will see such a openSUSE uptick - Look at Munich, when they decided to move entirely to Linux, they chose.....drum roll please.....debian. What did I miss?

http://caesar.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2015/debconf15/Linux_in_the_City_of_Munich_AKA_LiMux.webm

dragonbite
27-Aug-2015, 06:31
These threads are amazing!

Here is a sample from the first posting within this thread (#1): "I'm a Windows user for over 15 years, and planning to switch to OpenSuse once I figure some things out. I've been using Windows 7 in the last years and planned switching to Windows 8, until I heard some bad news about it."

Now from the most recent post (#126): "Depends. My bank can get me dollars or other things if I ask a week or
more in advance. So when I returned home, I kept some instead of changing them back to
pesetas.Then, on my next trip to Canada a decade later the shops were surprised
at how old the design of my bills were :-)"

But to answer the first posters question - no, I don't think you will see such a openSUSE uptick - Look at Munich, when they decided to move entirely to Linux, they chose.....drum roll please.....debian. What did I miss?

http://caesar.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2015/debconf15/Linux_in_the_City_of_Munich_AKA_LiMux.webm

Yeah, when I read the custom-made debian instead of [1] an enterprise-supported distribution or [2] "local" SUSE I facepalmed.

The problem I see is that opportunities for Micorosoft to stumble and Linux to leap ahead are missed time and time again. The only place I see Linux gaining ground is with Ubuntu, and not in the USA (the final battleground I suppose). Following them I have read a number of success stories even without including the Ubuntu Phone.

The only one(s) gaining at Microsoft's expense is Apple and Google.

BSDuser
28-Aug-2015, 03:32
Yeah, when I read the custom-made debian instead of [1] an enterprise-supported distribution or [2] "local" SUSE I facepalmed.

The problem I see is that opportunities for Micorosoft to stumble and Linux to leap ahead are missed time and time again. The only place I see Linux gaining ground is with Ubuntu, and not in the USA (the final battleground I suppose). Following them I have read a number of success stories even without including the Ubuntu Phone.

The only one(s) gaining at Microsoft's expense is Apple and Google.

These days I only use Xubuntu; Since 2013, openSUSE is one of my curiosities which I use as a VM only. I simply find Xubuntu much better, than any RPM based Linux.

A friend gave me an old Sempron; I upped the memory to 3.2 GB and the AMD processor is 64 bit. It works great with either Xubuntu, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD. I think I have settled back down to earth with Xubuntu on it. I am using the *BSD's as VM's only on my more powerful laptops.

dragonbite
28-Aug-2015, 05:32
These days I only use Xubuntu; Since 2013, openSUSE is one of my curiosities which I use as a VM only. I simply find Xubuntu much better, than any RPM based Linux.

A friend gave me an old Sempron; I upped the memory to 3.2 GB and the AMD processor is 64 bit. It works great with either Xubuntu, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD. I think I have settled back down to earth with Xubuntu on it. I am using the *BSD's as VM's only on my more powerful laptops.

On low-end systems I find Ubuntu Mate even lighter than Xubuntu but with all of the features.

One thing I find with openSUSE over *buntu is the rolling-release of Tumbleweed. Running updates never work for me so each version that comes out is another clean-install-and-reinstall-whatever. At least I started putting together scripts to install those things.

xen82
01-Sep-2015, 12:13
People will never change to Linux no matter what because of the 80% finished principle. Linux developers rarely spend time really finishing up a product and make it end-user friendly. I just had a bug in the support for my touch-pad that was not driver related but a bad bug in the KDE module that handles it. If the bug is triggered the touchpad will stop working; for ever.

It is a config flag that disables the trackpad and that stays persistent in your home directory. You have to manually clear it.

If that happened to a regular computer novice, they'd be in pain. Suppose it takes weeks before you find someone that can fix it. How the ... should you proceed? Your computer, that you depend on, just stopped working.

A general computer user will be up in the hairs about it.

I recently contacted the author of a PostgreSQL visual tool like MySQLAdmin but written in JSP/Java. He said they had no time to write documentation because they were "volunteers". The product looked very nice (but everything was too small) and although the user interface seemed very well put together I found it unusable. There were hardly any installation instructions and no documentation whatsoever. If you create an application:

- architecture
- user interface design
- attention to detail
- ease of installation
- no unrecoverable errors
- functions correctly
- gets the job done

Are all equally as important, and if you forget one, the whole thing quickly becomes worthless. In Linux most people don't pay attention to any of the important user experience categories. Documentation is notoriously hard to read (openSUSE is really an exception), the "info" system is totally unusable. Man pages are often badly written.

There is no integrated help system. Even MS-DOS 6.0 had an integrated help system that was awesome. That was like 23 years ago. Linux doesn't have anything that remotely comes CLOSE. Apart from Yast, there are barely any good ncurses apps with menu style. I can only think of the excellent "iptraf". MS-DOS used to have an excellent editor that is better than Vi, Joe and Nano combined. "MS Works" was a very usable word processor application in MS-DOS. "PC Tools" was an excellent system/filesystem control application. There were numerous great games. MS-DOS was a great, terrific game platform.

There were SO many games for MS-DOS. To name just a few... smaller ones like arkanoid of course, xonix, whatever. Golden Axe. King's Quest. Larry. Monkey Island. Many more. With the higher memory came DOS4GW.EXE I believe. It was the expanded memory, 32-bit manager. You now had games like Red Alert, Command & Conquer, Warcraft 2, Settlers 2. Everything ran on DOS, don't forget that.

I had this menu application that was graphical that never really was a success. I tried using it to make starting games easier for my siblings. I think they would have done equally well with the command line.

When I got my first DOS computer (and only one) it came with a MS-DOS manual. I read it in full. I read almost every item in the help system. I read about all the commands. I had done this before when I learned MSX-Basic. I had a manual and I completely devoured it. It was so well written. I learned binary and hexadecimal number systems when I was about 9. From the MSX-Basic manual.

So let's quit comparing Windows to Linux. Let's just compare MS-DOS to Linux and take lessons from that. MS-DOS is superior in almost every way from a user interface perspective, if you discount for a moment the advantages of a graphical GUI and the networking capabilities that did not exist at the time. Today people consider MS-DOS a "hard thing" from the past. People in their forties still remember it. When I pop up a Windows CMD.EXE window, they will go "Oh, MSDOS?" or "Oh, DOS?". If you take away the GUI, and forget that MS-DOS did not have any drivers or capabilities for networking, (almost none) what is left is the deep impression that everyone that used it loved MS-DOS and found it to be really easy.

Sure most that did use it were geeky people but the people in their 40s are usually not geeks at all. MS-DOS is a lot harder than MS-Windows these days, I guess. But most could achieve the modicum of use. It was the early days and yes it was harder. It required commands. But let's just summarize all of the commands you needed.

- A:
- C:
- cd <dir>
- mkdir <dir>
- rmdir <dir>
- del
- copy
- move

- A:\INSTALL.EXE

- dir

That's about it. I remember the first time I saw my cousin use "dir" on his PC. I had never had a PC before. I was curious as to what he was doing. I did not understand at the time. What was "dir"?. I am now much more versed in computers than he is. He got there sooner, but I went much farther.

And he was younger than me as well but his parents gave him more good stuff.

- help

Now compare the Unix equivalents to some:

- ls
- rm
- mv
- cp

See the difference?

MS-DOS had only one important, non-user directory. C:\DOS.
MS-DOS had only two important, non-user files that you needed to know about

CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT

Both were easy to edit and customize to your will. You could create boot menus with CONFIG.SYS and then create GOTO statements in your AUTOEXEC.BAT to effectuate those menus. It was very easy and in that sense, powerful. I have no frigging CLUE how to achieve the same in Linux. All I can do is (in Suse) put something in after.local or local.after or whatever.

So it is twenty-three years later and I cannot achieve the same things that I could achieve back then. I have had a regression. In that way and important sense. My user experience is not on par, or up to par, with what it was back then. Forget Windows. Talk MS-DOS. There are important lessons to learn.

MS-DOS had a third party tool called QCD.EXE in its simple sense and it provided, no matter how trival, a very easy way to traverse directory trees in text mode, with colours and all. So simple and if you had the skills you could code it up in Linux within hours. It doesn't exist. Something so trivial and useful and it doesn't exist. Sure there is tab-completion but that is hardly the best of the best in navigation. That important little thingy no matter how unimportant and trivial still, was better than what all of the "brlliant minds of the Unix world" have put together so far, that I know about.

You can have 1 person that does a right thing and you can have 2 million people that do a wrong thing and do that wrong thing for 20 years, and it will still be not any better than what that 1 person has done in 3 days.

Of course we can discount for a moment Midnight Commander, it's just a clone of Norton Commander and I never used both, but that's just me perhaps.

I used PC Tools heavily but not NC.

(I can't find PC Tools anymore on the web. I'm not sure I remember entirely correctly?).

The short answer is that linux developers do not care about user experience because they don't pour in enough love into the product they make to make it really awesome and excellent and attractive. To make something great and publishable you have to pour in tons and tons of love. And I see people not do that. They do not love what they create. Some parts do receive that love, but it depends on the creator. The panel in KDE that I'm currently using is the most beautiful "task" bar I've ever had, but then the KDE software itself bugs it out so completely at times that it renders that beauty totally worthless.

The icons and all look great, but then the launcher icons for Dolphin etc. (for example, it's the only one I see now) is/are much too small. What? That ruins it. You have to give attention to detail. And it is usually not given long enough, full enough.

The calendar that pops up in KDE. Totally bad. It has a "events" compartment that draws attention away from the calender in a bad way and is coloured in such as way as to confuse you as to what the current date is. BAD. BAD. BAD. BAD DESIGN. BAD THOUGHT. Someone who created that on his own for his own would never do that. That one person that works for 3 days? Creates something better than this. This is just awful.

The thing is utterly confusing. There is a date in there but it is just a date string 09/01/15. Okay I got my locale set up badly. Not sure how that happened. There is a number in there "36". I do not know what 36 means. I have used calendars all my life and I can't read this display. What means 36. Oh, it is a week number. I never knew.

They could have not done a much better job making it visually attractive on the one hand and utterly unusable on the other hand. You gotta give them props for that. The software I used in MS-DOS was almost without exception just excellent. There is hardly any such excellence today of the same quality and aspects in this world of Linux software today. I can say that honestly.

(Just think of how slow Yast is too start, and Zypper is not very fast either).

The quality of my software life is 90% worse in about 60% of important categories than it was back then, while only 40% have gone up dramatically.

Let's say on average my user experience is about 30% worse than back in 1992. This wasn't so for a long time in e.g. Windows 98 but I still love text-mode menu applications that are well designed, to the brim. There is almost nothing that beats a well crafted text-mode interface in terms of speed and usability. It also required much less to make excellent: you do not need excellent graphical skills, maybe that is a difference.

I haven't mentioned the gem of gems yet, because it also had a drawback, but it was just minor really although it stands out for me.

Let's just conclude for the moment that MS-DOS had a user experience that is utterly lost in Linux. Many things you could do then, you cannot do now. Perhaps they are few, but they are important and vital. I could tell you everything that needs to change to recreate that experience. And of course it is doable. It is perfectly doable.

You'd need to change grub2, you'd need to change the init system, probably get rid of that new thing. You'd need to reorganise the file system hierarchy for a bit (not all that much). You'd need to change the help systems (man and info, mostly info). You'd need to create a well-packaged scope (a limitation) and a presentation of the essential commands in such a way that a user can quickly discover and learn. In other words, you need to create a smaller, well-crafted environment where a user can feel at home in. You need to create a form of drive letters for mounts that stand apart from or orthonogal to the root structure/tree. (Why have only one tree? There are many trees in the forest. The driver letter thing C: A: in MS-DOS and Windows was just awesome. It is a really great feature that has no drawbacks. It puzzles me why Linux adherents do not see or believe that. Having one single root is like taking a square and reducing it to a line and then saying that it has improved). (You make the system less-dimensional). (There is one direction less in which to traverse. Only Dolphin tries to recreate it with its "Places").

If you do these things, you've basically almost got the MS-DOS experience. For the largest part it is encapsulation and abstraction to create a subset of the user experience that is well-maintained, given a lot of attention to get it just perfectly right, and just provides an environment that is totally easy and not hard and not difficult to do anything wrong. It is easy. I think with a team of 3 people doing it 5 hours a day, that had the skills, you'd be done in 3 months and have something amazing. Of course, the real question is whether today that would serve any purpose.

But I would certainly make something like that if I had the opportunity.

xen82
01-Sep-2015, 12:28
But I will say that I am personally finding a real need to switch to Linux partly because of the Windows downfalls. There is simply hardly another other choice.

I mean there is hardly any other choice that is attractive still. Microsoft has gone insane. It started mostly with Windows Vista/7. They try to mirror what Google has done, but they can never really succeed. They cannot clone Google. It is just momentally pointless.

Many in the Linux world are also going insane, more than they were before. I see the whole world around me actually becoming more insane. It is not just contained within or restricted to the computer world. Most of the world is losing its sanity.

Take the Windows 7 updates system. In Windows XP you could run updates while in the system and never had any delays in bootup or shutdown. Today, Windows 7 can stall your system for hours. While you cannot use it. That is unacceptable. These updates also regularly fail. I had it happen with my Windows 7 netbook. It takes 30 minutes to effect an update, and then says it has failed and it needs to be reverted. That is just utterly incredibly painful.

A system should NEVER prevent you from shutting it down or delay you from starting it up because of "updates". It is the one thing I hate the most about Windows 7 and one of the important reasons I turn off automatic updates. My system is currently unusable for that Microsoft choice and decision. I have been in OpenSUSE for days now because I can't muster up the courage and patience and love to stand to be unable to use my Laptop for hours because it is trying to fix that error. Currently I can either use OpenSUSE and hopefully keep browsing the web and advancing myself, or I can sit by idly while Windows tries to fix itself using the bootCD with no indication on how long it will take and whether it will be successful or not. I may even need to reinstall Windows AGAIN and that is the most pain ful thing ever.

All because I chose to let it install updates.

Bah.

So yes, pretty literally, the Windows (7/8) mistakes are currently causing this Windows user to switch to Linux & openSuse. Cause it's either that or going through that hell. I'd rather choose the Linux hell at present. ;-).

xen82
01-Sep-2015, 15:09
Let's say my user experience unit tests are all failing.

They are indicating a regression ;-).

Cannot create boot menu.

I actually have a need for that. I want to use kexec to boot another kernel. I don't know how to do it...

robin_listas
01-Sep-2015, 15:14
On 2015-09-01 21:16, xen82 wrote:

> There is no integrated help system. Even MS-DOS 6.0 had an integrated
> help system that was awesome. That was like 23 years ago. Linux doesn't
> have anything that remotely comes CLOSE.

Not exactly.

Linux has a browsable "info" system. If you don't like the interface,
there are other alternatives. pinfo, in text mode, or some guis.

In MsDOS, if you wanted the technical information, you had to buy the
internal reference book, which was expensive. In Linux, that
documentation is in another category of man pages, free, or in the sources.

> Apart from Yast, there are
> barely any good ncurses apps with menu style. I can only think of the
> excellent "iptraf".

mc, pine... lynx...

> MS-DOS used to have an excellent editor that is
> better than Vi, Joe and Nano combined.

Which one would be that? Not edlin!

> "MS Works" was a very usable word
> processor application in MS-DOS. "PC Tools" was an excellent
> system/filesystem control application. There were numerous great games.
> MS-DOS was a great, terrific game platform.

You forget an important detail: MsDOS did close to nothing. All those
interfaces, all those wonderful graphics in the games, sound, printer
handling... was done from scratch by every programming house. Not by
Microsoft. And you had to be lucky that the program you bought had
support for all the hardware you had. Maybe Wordperfect handled
perfectly your printer, but autocad did it awfully.


> So let's quit comparing Windows to Linux. Let's just compare MS-DOS to
> Linux and take lessons from that. MS-DOS is superior in almost every way
> from a user interface perspective, if you discount for a moment the
> advantages of a graphical GUI and the networking capabilities that did
> not exist at the time. Today people consider MS-DOS a "hard thing" from
> the past. People in their forties still remember it. When I pop up a
> Windows CMD.EXE window, they will go "Oh, MSDOS?" or "Oh, DOS?". If you
> take away the GUI, and forget that MS-DOS did not have any drivers or
> capabilities for networking, (almost none) what is left is the deep
> impression that everyone that used it loved MS-DOS and found it to be
> really easy.

No. I lived all that, and there were things I hated in MsDOS: very poor
scripting, and nil multitasking. When I saw Linux, I said: finally! A
good OS that has all that MsDOS declined to do!


>

> Now compare the Unix equivalents to some:
>
> - ls
> - rm
> - mv
> - cp
>
> See the difference?

Not really.


> MS-DOS had a third party tool called QCD.EXE in its simple sense and it
> provided, no matter how trival, a very easy way to traverse directory
> trees in text mode, with colours and all. So simple and if you had the
> skills you could code it up in Linux within hours. It doesn't exist.

Try 'mc'.



> forest. The driver letter thing C: A: in MS-DOS and Windows was just
> awesome. It is a really great feature that has no drawbacks. It puzzles
> me why Linux adherents do not see or believe that. Having one single
> root is like taking a square and reducing it to a line and then saying
> that it has improved). (You make the system less-dimensional). (There is
> one direction less in which to traverse. Only Dolphin tries to recreate
> it with its "Places").

I don't agree.

It is impossible, anyway.

And you can do a single tree in Windows nowdays, so it must have
advantages to them :-p





--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

robin_listas
01-Sep-2015, 15:14
On 2015-09-01 21:36, xen82 wrote:

> Today, Windows 7 can stall your system for hours. While you cannot use
> it. That is unacceptable. These updates also regularly fail. I had it
> happen with my Windows 7 netbook. It takes 30 minutes to effect an
> update, and then says it has failed and it needs to be reverted. That is
> just utterly incredibly painful.

Is that a double boot (to Linux) machine?

--
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

dragonbite
02-Sep-2015, 07:38
xen82:

I wouldn't know much about MSDos because I didn't use it much while growing up (I'm only 44). Majority of my computing has been Windows 95+. My DOS and Win3.11 experience was minor and light use.

You're talking about how Linux is difficult for the common person yet in your description I find you to be much more technical than the common person, and digging into parts that most people would either hesitate or not know how to get into.

You are also not completely wrong, either. OpenSUSE is a great Linux distribution but I find for more common people's use Ubuntu provides the details and "finish" plus documentation that you are talking about. I have no doubt that if I were to not do all of the things I do, I could set up and use Ubuntu without ever touching the command line. My kids, when they were using it, never had to. That was some of the "spit and polish" that Ubuntu put on their distribution to make things easier.

Windows 8 may have been annoying for people but Wndows 10 is addressing these issues and even with the reports of spying and the such, people are upgrading. For the majority of people using Windows, this will suffice in taking the touch/tablet-centric Windows 8 and make the system work pretty well on desktops and laptops.

I think the Windows 8 opportunity is coming to a close.

gman24
30-Nov-2016, 22:56
xen82:

I wouldn't know much about MSDos because I didn't use it much while growing up (I'm only 44). Majority of my computing has been Windows 95+. My DOS and Win3.11 experience was minor and light use.

You're talking about how Linux is difficult for the common person yet in your description I find you to be much more technical than the common person, and digging into parts that most people would either hesitate or not know how to get into.

You are also not completely wrong, either. OpenSUSE is a great Linux distribution but I find for more common people's use Ubuntu provides the details and "finish" plus documentation that you are talking about. I have no doubt that if I were to not do all of the things I do, I could set up and use Ubuntu without ever touching the command line. My kids, when they were using it, never had to. That was some of the "spit and polish" that Ubuntu put on their distribution to make things easier.

Windows 8 may have been annoying for people but Wndows 10 is addressing these issues and even with the reports of spying and the such, people are upgrading. For the majority of people using Windows, this will suffice in taking the touch/tablet-centric Windows 8 and make the system work pretty well on desktops and laptops.

I think the Windows 8 opportunity is coming to a close.


1. Ubuntu is pure garbage. Your average pc user would find it unusable. especially when waking from sleep/suspend and:
- tada, your mouse cursor has dissappeared
- tada, your wifi and all available connections are *gone*
- tada, you have intel graphics? we're sorry, but x has crashed, where's your desktop bro? enjoy this terminal instead.
not to mention these fun ones:
- tada, you need to install flash to watch youtube, good luck on figuring it out.
- tada, you need to install proprietary drivers for graphics support.
- tada, you wanted to use watchespn or netflix? you need to install this sketcy 3rd party rpm to download the proprietary legacy drm.
- tada, intel graphics drivers no worky
- tada, you want to play games? enjoy ~15 fps.

2. Opensuse Tumbleweed with KDE is probably not far from challenging windows 10 in my opinion for the following reasons:
- performance is really good.
- kde looks pretty, it just needs to completely clone windows taskbar/menu (minus those retarded notifications) and you've got the productivity crowd.
- the ux of kde widgets is nice. i really like how breeze dark looks. all of the components are modern and minimalistic.
- improve gaming support (direct x??). if you can offer equivalent framerate in a free os, gamers will lineup in droves)
- ship with clamav and some type of active monitoring/sandbox execution for unrecognized programs). average pc users are noobs, they click on everything and are gullible to the simplest phishing attempts.
- convince adobe to make photoshop/et al work on opensuse.
- some tool for firewall editor for advanced users.
- some api for programs to request usage of ports. average user is not going to understand how to open ports in a firewall. but if you pop a box up when they click on their online game and it says "bla blah blah is requesting access to the internet" they can just click ok. its not hard at all and its ****ing necessary for non technical users.
- install primary account as sudoer by default. 99% of the hassle with linux is asking for the root password anytime you want to do anything.
- increase prevalence of symlinks/aliases and pimp it as a feature in dolphin. Windows Explorer makes navigating the filesystem easy and intuitive. By utilizing symlinks the same way windows does we increase the ease of navigating the filesystem.
- decent screenshotting tool
- automate setup of kwallet, with an option for manual config in the installer. Users want to be secure without having to do anything. and you know what, that's exactly how it should be anyway.

3. Opensuse with KDE is instantly more useable than Ubuntu because it looks really similar to Windows. It also comes with firefox, which most people have heard of.

These are just some ideas i have on the subject. I very much desire to see a linux distro with the creature comforts cloned over from windows and definitely more windows programs being ported to linux.