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elwis
01-Feb-2010, 04:09
Just a thought I had. I spent some time working my way though some of this actually excellent courses:
javapassion.com root page (http://www.javapassion.com/)

I imagine that these courses, based on SUN products led by a SUN employee (until recently) actually created somekind of boost for SUN.

Are there something like this for SuSE? It doesn't need to be SuSE specific, "Programming python on SuSE" is still PR if you ask me..

palladium
01-Feb-2010, 09:35
it is no longer SuSE, now it is either openSUSE which you get from the
"openSUSE Community" or SUSE Linux Enterprise Server/Desktop
(SLES/SLED) an industrial strength version, which you get from Novell..

Novell also provides training, see: http://www.novell.com/training/

--
palladium

elwis
01-Feb-2010, 10:06
Sorry, yes of course - I knew that.
However, when it comes to marketing I think they both prosper from the "SuSE" brand which I think should be strengthened. I think more people know about the Ubuntu brand then the green lizard, so far. The Ubuntu people have been good at marketing.

Novell offers great training, that's true but I think free community training through the web attracts more openSuSE users worlwide then paid lectures.

Whatever, I'll se what I might have time to cook up later on.

hendersj
01-Feb-2010, 13:02
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:16:03 +0000, elwis wrote:

> Novell offers great training, that's true but I think free community
> training through the web attracts more openSuSE users worlwide then paid
> lectures.

Well, Novell does offer some free training, but not specifically on
openSUSE - there are some older courses for SLE available in our Open
Courseware catalog (http://ocw.novell.com). The SLED books (courses 6200
and 6201) are geared for students rather than for adults, but some of
those courses may be of interest to you.

But in a broader sense, what sort of topics would you see covered for a
community training resource? I actually work in Novell's Technical
Training department, and it might be interesting to pursue something like
this in the community (I've had ideas about this in the past for our
enterprise products, but hadn't thought a lot about something that was
specifically for openSUSE since my focus has been on the enterprise
products).

I'm game for a discussion on this - maybe we can start building a new
community resource.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

elwis
01-Feb-2010, 22:38
Hi Jim, glad to hear you.

First of all, the way I see it there's two goals with building a free training/class community. Spread the openSuSE brand and share knowledge among users.
(that's why I would like to call it "beginning python programming on openSuSE" not on "Linux")

About the topics, I suppose it depends on what people would like to write, or would Novell do the hard work?
Obvious topics would be installing/configuring openSuSE, chapters about configuring the desktop, setting up a homeserver etc

Others could be more general, as I said, but pushing the openSuSE brand. "Developing ASP .NET on openSuSE", "Graphical Design on openSuSE", "Multimedia .."

Specifying a certain distro will also assure that people will get going. There's nothing more frustrating then a "Getting started" guide where you fail at step two. In the diversed land of the penguin I'm afraid this happens too often.

Anyway, when the happy student finish his course, a nice pdf diploma will arrive in his mailbox (always reward)and he is a little bit more confident doing daily work in his distro of choice.

palladium
02-Feb-2010, 12:21
elwis wrote:
> Obvious topics would be installing/configuring openSuSE, chapters about
> configuring the desktop, setting up a homeserver etc

kinda like these?

http://faculty.weber.edu/kcuddeback/Classes/TBE3200/Slides/9781428322271_PPT_ch01.ppt
http://faculty.weber.edu/kcuddeback/Classes/TBE3200/Slides/9781428322271_PPT_ch02.ppt
http://faculty.weber.edu/kcuddeback/Classes/TBE3200/Slides/9781428322271_PPT_ch03.ppt
http://faculty.weber.edu/kcuddeback/Classes/TBE3200/Slides/9781428322271_PPT_ch04.ppt

or, more like this:
http://www.novell.com/documentation/opensuse112/book_opensuse_startup/?page=/documentation/opensuse112/book_opensuse_startup/data/book_opensuse_startup.html

--
palladium

elwis
02-Feb-2010, 12:34
Yes the novell document seem useful, that could probably be worked on and be the foundation for one course.

The ppt's seem to be slides for an instructor lead course without the instructor. Or at least the first one, my point is to create more real lectures with assignments to hand in, and then some sort of PDF diploma for the once that finish the course. (as stated - always reward)

Not sure I have time for it the nearest months but if there will be somekind of "openSuSE academy" website I might get some "Getting started python/mono/java/groovy programming on openSuSE" going..

dragonbite
02-Feb-2010, 13:03
I think the opportunity for training is almost limitless!

I do ASP.NET developmetn at work, and one of my frequented sites (The Official Microsoft ASP.NET Site (http://www.ASP.NET)) has an ever-growing number of training videos that go over one aspect or another, and they are free to view.

Something like this would be, I think, an increadible boon to openSUSE/SUSE and Linux in general.

Beginner
Installing
Partitioning
What are partitions?
What is a good partition scheme?
Physical vs LVM?

Compatibility
How do I open my old files?
Why does my old file not open?
How can I make this compatible?
What formats are most compatible?

Setting up Email
What email applications are included / available?
How do I set up my client (Kmail, Evolution, Thunderbird )
What is POP? What is IMAP? What is the difference?
How can I connect to my Gmail / Hotmail / Yahoo! mail?

Sharing folders in a network
"Where's the C: \ prompt?"; The Linux directory system and File Managers (Dolphin, Konquerer, Nautilus)
Systems
Am I protected?
What is a firewall?
Do I need an Anti-Virus?
How do I use wireless?
How do I install Wireless?
How do I install graphic card drivers?
Where is solitaire?



Intermediate
Providing Feedback
Reporting bugs
Making suggestions
Using forums

Installing Programs
From repositories
Adding repositories
From .rpm
using Yast
using Zypper
from source
Updating
Upgrading

Restricted formats
What are the restircted formats?
What are the alternatives?
Why are restricted formats restricted?
How can I install them anyway?

Basic Common Applications
OpenOffice.org
Gimp
Amarok / Banshee
DigiKam / F-Spot
Cheese (webcams)



Advanced
Integrating with Active Directory
Starting to program
What languages are compatible?
What IDEs are available? (Eclipse, Monodevelop, etc.)
Choosing a language
Choosing an IDE
How do I make it cross-platform?
Transfering to Windows/Mac
Making a desktop application that work
Submitting an application to be included in the repositories

Open Source licenses
What is available?
What do they mean?
What are their limitations?
Can I make money from this?

Maintaining a package
Picking a package
What does it involve?
How to be chosen to manage a package?



I know a lot of those can be done with web pages and such, but sometimes being able to watch a video is better than reading.

Sorry for them being scattered.. I just rambled them off the top of my head but I have to return to work now..

elwis
02-Feb-2010, 13:32
Great idea!

And yes, all those courses could be googled for elsewhere. The point is pushing the "openSuSE" brand, and telling in detail how to get going this specific distro.

And of course.. collecting them all at one single webportal would be nice. I also think that a lot of people will find the idea of collection good looking diplomas on their wall will boost their ego.
(Like back in the days when anyone could get a Microsoft certification without the need of installing NT..)

elwis
02-Feb-2010, 22:21
I was thinking something like this OpenSuSE Academy (http://docs.google.com/present/view?id=ah9fjrg6jds5_82gsqv8pfs)

The coursematerial could be pdf's, flashmovies or whatever the community feel like producing.

What do you think, is it worth considering?

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 09:12
elwis wrote:
> or whatever the community feel like producing.

you speak of 'community' like you expect a lot of folks to get busy
helping this project along...and, maybe they will...i hope they will..

but, for now: if you have the spare time to throw at getting this
academy off the ground, i'd highly recommend you spend that time now
helping to get the new wiki to fly...see:
http://news.opensuse.org/2009/12/22/under-construction-new-wiki-underway/

imo that would do more in the short term to solidify the openSUSE
brand than a long range, long term commitment to generate and keep
updated a free training course..

--
palladium

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 09:17
elwis wrote:
> I was thinking something like this 'OpenSuSE Academy'

i think i forgot to mention, please learn how to spell it correctly:

it is not
SuSE, S.u.S.E, SUSE, OpenSuSE or OpenSUSE

it used to be a lot of different things and while it may change again,
today it is openSUSE everytime, everywhere..

--
palladium

dragonbite
03-Feb-2010, 09:46
elwis wrote:
> I was thinking something like this 'OpenSuSE Academy'

i think i forgot to mention, please learn how to spell it correctly:

it is not
SuSE, S.u.S.E, SUSE, OpenSuSE or OpenSUSE

it used to be a lot of different things and while it may change again,
today it is openSUSE everytime, everywhere..

--
palladium

Yeah, I wish they would just call it "SUSE", since Novell's products are "SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop" and "SUSE Linux Enterprise Server", so they aren't really "SUSE", they are "Enterprise Desktop/Server" spins.:P

To get the "Academy" off the ground and community-involved needs a lot of leg-work to get things started so people can see WHAT it is, and then be able to get those interested able to contribute.

That does bring up some interesting ideas, though; like is there a way to embed a tutorial video in the wiki? Also, what are soem good desktop capturing applications to do a tutorial video?

malcolmlewis
03-Feb-2010, 10:04
That does bring up some interesting ideas, though; like is there a way
to embed a tutorial video in the wiki? Also, what are soem good desktop
capturing applications to do a tutorial video?

Hi
Recordmydesktop is one;
http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/about.php
http://software.opensuse.org/search?baseproject=openSUSE%3A11.2&p=1&q=recordmydesktop

I use vmware workstation which has the ability to record, not sure
about the others vbox etc?

--
Cheers Malcolm (Linux Counter #276890)
SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.27.42-0.1-default
up 19 days 3:27, 4 users, load average: 0.03, 0.11, 0.08
GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - CUDA Driver Version: 190.53

Jim Henderson
03-Feb-2010, 10:45
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:46:02 +0000, elwis wrote:

> Hi Jim, glad to hear you.
>
> First of all, the way I see it there's two goals with building a free
> training/class community. Spread the openSuSE brand and share knowledge
> among users.
> (that's why I would like to call it "beginning python programming on
> openSuSE" not on "Linux")

I have often viewed training materials as marketing materials of a sort -
though with more in-depth technical detail than you'd find in traditional
"marketing fluff" - ie, light on fluff, high on content. But from the
standpoint of name recognition (in particular), it's very important.

> About the topics, I suppose it depends on what people would like to
> write, or would Novell do the hard work? Obvious topics would be
> installing/configuring openSuSE, chapters about configuring the desktop,
> setting up a homeserver etc

Knowing the workload the course development team is under (since the team
reports to the same manager that I do), it would be a community effort,
but I could get advice on some good instructional design practices to
incorporate into the project. That would make for materials that were
teachable.

From a format standpoint, there's a number of options - ranging from
print books (for which the project would need to find a publisher or fund
self-publishing - the Blender project has done something like this so
could be a template).

That type of format lends itself to "classroom" style learning, but that
may not be ideal for a community project - though as something that could
be used as a "canned" presentation for LUG meetings, that could be useful
and an easier-to-consume format. That would result in modules that were
at most a couple of hours long rather than, say, a 4-day class (which
would require an instructor, classroom, computers, and other resources).

But there are other formats as well - for example, at Novell, we are
really heavy into "On Demand" using Moodle Rooms. The sessions are pre-
recorded and include demonstrations and a workbook for labs, but the
student has to set things up for the labs.

Combined with something like SUSE Studio, though, installation/
configuration for doing the labs would actually be fairly trivial to do
because the environment could be a pre-built VM set up using Studio.

> Others could be more general, as I said, but pushing the openSuSE brand.
> "Developing ASP .NET on openSuSE", "Graphical Design on openSuSE",
> "Multimedia .."

Some of these would also be good ideas to include - though for something
like python development (from your earlier example), from a learning
perspective, I think the more generic course would be preferred by the
audience. That doesn't mean, though, the community couldn't develop
courses along these lines and have a "SUSE Flavour" to them, license
under Creative Commons and let other distros leverage the work this
proposed team would do.

> Specifying a certain distro will also assure that people will get going.
> There's nothing more frustrating then a "Getting started" guide where
> you fail at step two. In the diversed land of the penguin I'm afraid
> this happens too often.

This is very true. Extending the original concept of the project to more
generic topics does allow for a broader range of topics to be covered
with (as I seaid earlier) a "SUSE Flavour" - as long as the knowledge is
portable to other distros. From a student perspective, portability of
knowledge is highly valued if a skill applies across multiple platforms.

> Anyway, when the happy student finish his course, a nice pdf diploma
> will arrive in his mailbox (always reward)and he is a little bit more
> confident doing daily work in his distro of choice.

Sure - a course completion certificate is something that could be put
together, along with actual testing. Looking from a testing perspective,
though, the ideal would be what in the testing business (which is my
specific role in Novell's training business, though I've done instruction
and course development as well) we call a "high stakes" exam - ie, a
proctored exam that is closed-book. Test publishing is somewhat
expensive to do, though - costing several thousand dollars per exam.

However, as it happens, I'm attending a conference next week for the
Association of Test Publishers, and will have the opportunity to chat
with many testing publishers. I could see what options are available
from that standpoint, of course with the caveat that this is still *very*
early at this point, but that we're just looking to see what options are
available.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1, CLA10, CLP10
Novell Technical Training

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 10:47
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:06:02 +0000, dragonbite wrote:

> Sorry for them being scattered.. I just rambled them off the top of my
> head but I have to return to work now..

Excellent ideas - one that comes to mind for me is a "Windows to Linux"
skills translation course. Take common tasks done in Windows and
translate them to how you do them in Linux. Something like that would
certainly help adoption because it could reduce the learning curve for
people making the switch.

Jim





--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 10:50
dragonbite wrote:
> Yeah, I wish they would just call it "SUSE"

but it is not just SUSE...it is openSUSE, open as in free and open
source software (aka: FOSS, F/OSS, FLOSS)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software>...

when you have installed openSUSE you have installed a *pure* free and
open source software system..

which differs from many other distros and is the reason that (for
example) Mint and others are born doing things that openSUSE cannot do..

*until* packman is enabled and NON-open source software is invited in..

see?

--
palladium

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 10:53
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:17:26 +0000, palladium wrote:

> it used to be a lot of different things and while it may change again,
> today it is openSUSE everytime, everywhere..

Part of the process of doing any serious course development would be a
round of both technical review and editorial review. Those become doubly
important if and when we start talking about localization (ie,
translating to other languages). :-)

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 10:58
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:36:01 +0000, elwis wrote:

> Not sure I have time for it the nearest months but if there will be
> somekind of "openSuSE academy" website I might get some "Getting started
> python/mono/java/groovy dprogramming on openSuSE" going..

Perhaps before we get to that point, though, we should start by looking
at a vision for what we want people to get out of it. It's always good
to start with the end in mind. The vision can change and be tweaked, of
course, but let's start by figuring out what we want to do.

Since I've got background in training, testing, and certification, I'd be
happy to be a focal point and provide some coordination and to drive the
discussion. I think there's some really serious potential here to do
something that (as far as I know) no other Linux distribution is doing,
and I'm honestly quite excited about the prospect of seeing what is
possible with a community training material development model.

I also can think of a few people I've worked with in the past several
years who have experience in course development who may have an interest
in contributing their expertise to a project like this from an
instructional design perspective.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

dragonbite
03-Feb-2010, 11:09
dragonbite wrote:
> Yeah, I wish they would just call it "SUSE"

but it is not just SUSE...it is openSUSE, open as in free and open
source software (aka: FOSS, F/OSS, FLOSS)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software>...

when you have installed openSUSE you have installed a *pure* free and
open source software system..

which differs from many other distros and is the reason that (for
example) Mint and others are born doing things that openSUSE cannot do..

*until* packman is enabled and NON-open source software is invited in..

see?

--
palladium

A Rose by any other name ...

elwis
03-Feb-2010, 11:34
Great to see that there are some interest in this idea. And also, good to see that I can learn something at once, spelling it openSUSE and noting else ;)
(hmm, when I started it was SuSE 6.4 .. I think back then, they spelled it like that, perhaps old habit or perhaps my memory are not what it used to be)

However, a lot of brilliant thoughts, and the big question is - how do we move forward? Since this is a community effort, I think we should start with small goals that are possible to accomplish, sure we could scan the different possibilities but I still think we should start small and simple not to crush ourselves with dim goals in the horizon.

Perhaps palladium is right, a bunch of tutorials in the wiki is the right place to start? Later on these could be turned into online courses with some exams and diplomas?
Personally, I think professional exams that you actually pay for are laying far ahead in the distance, but someday..

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 11:43
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:36:02 +0000, elwis wrote:

> Great to see that there are some interest in this idea. And also, good
> to see that I can learn something at once, spelling it openSUSE and
> noting else ;)
> (hmm, when I started it was SuSE 6.4 .. I think back then, they spelled
> it like that, perhaps old habit or perhaps my memory are not what it
> used to be)
>
> However, a lot of brilliant thoughts, and the big question is - how do
> we move forward?

I would propose that we assemble a group to determine the vision for
something like this. That's not to say that short tutorials in the wiki
would not be something to do as well - nothing wrong with a two-pronged
approach.

I also participate in the openSUSE mailing lists, and I can post the
proposal there as well to see if there's interest in participating from
that part of the community.

> Since this is a community effort, I think we should
> start with small goals that are possible to accomplish, sure we could
> scan the different possibilities but I still think we should start small
> and simple not to crush ourselves with dim goals in the horizon.

I agree. It would be difficult to do multiple "courses" at once without
first identifying the resource needs and filling those needs with people
to take on various tasks.

> Perhaps palladium is right, a bunch of tutorials in the wiki is the
> right place to start? Later on these could be turned into online courses
> with some exams and diplomas?

Sure, for gathering content together, that's a good starting point. I've
mentioned "instructional design" but realise I haven't really defined it
- the basic principle behind instructional design is to assess what the
knowledge gap of the target audience for the courses is and then
determine the best way to fill the gap. From there it gets into the flow
of the course, identifying lab work to be done, and so on.

> Personally, I think professional exams that you actually pay for are
> laying far ahead in the distance, but someday..

Agreed - but it never hurts to explore the options there as well. I know
the cost of, for example, publishing an exam through VUE is quite
expensive, but if we had some courses to start with, maybe we could find
a sponsor to cover that cost.

So let's start by looking at what the goals of such training would/could/
should be, and from there we can identify how to meet the need. If some
who want to contribute content have ideas on tutorials and the like, that
would be great content for the wiki so there's a starting point for the
content (though it may need to be massaged as it's put into 'course'
format - one thing that happens with professional writing is editing, re-
editing, and re-re-editing <g>).

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 12:05
> A Rose by any other name ...

is not as open..

--
palladium

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 12:11
elwis wrote:
> (hmm, when I started it was SuSE 6.4 .. I think back then, they spelled
> it like that, perhaps old habit or perhaps my memory are not what it
> used to be)

"Novell, one of the founding members of the Open Invention Network,
opened widely the distribution development to outside contributors in
2005, creating the openSUSE Project. . . The name "S.u.S.E" was
originally a German acronym for "Software und System-Entwicklung",
meaning "Software and systems development", a name not so original for
a software company. However, the full name has never been used and the
company has always been known as "S.u.S.E", later shortened to "SuSE"
in October 1998."

cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_distributions

--
palladium

palladium
03-Feb-2010, 12:16
i remember one of the main reasons i switched from Win3.1 to IBM's
OS/2 v3.0 was i read in one of the PC mags of the day that 1) it was a
no-brainer to install 2) it had an icon on the desktop that was a one
click way to the internet AND 3) included an on screen step-by-step
walk though of how to do Windows tasks in Warp..

and, it lived up to all three of those promises....and STILL got
squashed by the Redmond Evangelists and illegal/predatory market
practices..

--
palladium

elwis
03-Feb-2010, 12:16
I really hope this guy would be interested, he has done some impressive work already:
YouTube - theurbanpenguin's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/theurbanpenguin#g/c/94DB024E50520F51)

Anyway, let's see if there are some broader interest, guess it's too much work for a fulltime developer with kids and a lot of snow in the yard alone.. ;)

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 13:17
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:16:21 +0000, palladium wrote:

> and, it lived up to all three of those promises....and STILL got
> squashed by the Redmond Evangelists and illegal/predatory market
> practices..

Well, the whole OS/2 development process was pretty bizarre anyways,
because Microsoft had a hand in the development; it was when things fell
apart between IBM and Microsoft regarding OS/2 that the OS started really
having problems.

I can remember using packet drivers to get TCP/IP support on Win 3.x,
though. :-)

Jim


--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

dragonbite
03-Feb-2010, 13:18
Perhaps palladium is right, a bunch of tutorials in the wiki is the right place to start? Later on these could be turned into online courses with some exams and diplomas?

Video tutorials can be uploaded to YouTube in the meantime, with links or players on the wiki page.

Just saw a presentation last night where the person had a Zoho (Google-docs like) presentation embedded on his blog so you had the control right there to go slide-by-slide through it without having to download or navigate anywhere. It was either small or you could make it full-screen.

hendersj
03-Feb-2010, 13:19
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:26:03 +0000, elwis wrote:

> I really hope this guy would be interested, he has done some impressive
> work already:
> 'YouTube - theurbanpenguin's Channel'
> (http://www.youtube.com/user/theurbanpenguin#g/c/94DB024E50520F51)
>
> Anyway, let's see if there are some broader interest, guess it's too
> much work for a fulltime developer with kids and a lot of snow in the
> yard alone.. ;)

I know Andrew quite well, in fact - he's a Novell CNI and a good friend -
he's one I was thinking of who has some applicable skills. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

nmarques78
05-Feb-2010, 14:37
I don't want to be disruptive, but this has to be said at some point.

"Free, as in freedom of speech, not as in free beer".


People do want everything for free... Let's make a small metaphore here.

You want something to be certified for sale within European Union, it has to be certified with "CE", same applies to the US and other parts of the world with "RoHS" certification.
This process involves a credited institution like SGS, TV, APCER or whatever. This process involves money spending.

If you realize that you want a "free" course, lets compare to something such as Microsoft Certified (mouse) Engineer or eventually Red Hat certified Engineer, which is credited by Microsoft (for MSCE) and Red Hat (RHCE). This involves spending money.

Yet again, Novell is in business to make money. From the Marketing perspective it comes down to this:

Goal of a Organization: Generate revenue/proffit (can come in several ways, like social profit, finantial profit, etc).
Means of an Organization: The Product
Target of an Organization: People in general, consumers.

I would suppose Novell is spending money on this, as such they have to get their revenue from someplace. I would doubt they would be giving away free courses (certified like the commercial ones from Red Hat for instance), without taking nothing from the process.

Honestly, I remember SuSE from the old times for being a company that invested in it's community (they sponsored a lot of events, including one I organized in Portugal back in 2001), and they spended money developing linux and hardware drivers, most people will remember SuSE pathbreaking on this subject specially those who had Intel i740, Voodoo Banshee, etc etc.

Everyone remembers the contributions of Red Hat for the kernel development, and most important (from my perspective) to GCC compiler (didn't we all loved Red Hat 7.0? Best distro ever, despite of what the bad mouthing gossip said).
I wonder now, in current days, who is still placing money to develop Linux? Honestly, companies like Novell have enough bearing to press hardware manufacturers to start giving native support...

The sad truth is that everyone is deviating from "freedom of speech" to "free as in free beer".

Honestly for those who have done MSCE (I did it back on NT4.0), we know what this courses actually are, and in most cases are a waste of money. Where to click, what to enable, blah blah blah... But all of that is really crappy if you don't have low level knowledge on the system and protocols used. This why so many boxes are owned despite of all the progress in the last 10 years around security.

What you should aim actually is to have your local governament supporting Free Software, and use it on the educational system. This would make more sense.

I do recon a lot of places that when people apply for a job, if they mention things like MSCE, they're completly off the job oppurtunity, because it's a stupidity testemony.

It's not a company or distribution provider that should form people on the real stuff, low level and protocol level. That as to come from somewhere else, like a degree, Masters, etc. Their role in this subject is what is really should be, handling some weird tools made for dummies. The quality of a sysadmin doesn't come from certifications ;) At least most of BOFH's around will know what I mean with this, and will recon that most stuff running on top of a Linux kernel is well documented, too well documented. If people wanna step over this learning process, they fail big time.

Anyway, the best tool ever to help understanding linux, is vim, master vim, and you'll master all the rest :)

palladium
06-Feb-2010, 02:04
nmarques78 wrote:
> If people wanna step over this learning process, they
> fail big time.
>
> Anyway, the best tool ever to help understanding linux, is vim, master
> vim, and you'll master all the rest :)

well, i don't know that vim is _the_ answer, but there is certainly a
lot to be said about IT degrees....for example the january Linux
Journal's article "Point/Counterpoint - Education vs. Experience" at
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10637 may be interesting to many..

--
palladium

nmarques78
08-Feb-2010, 05:00
nmarques78 wrote:
> If people wanna step over this learning process, they
> fail big time.
>
> Anyway, the best tool ever to help understanding linux, is vim, master
> vim, and you'll master all the rest :)

well, i don't know that vim is _the_ answer, but there is certainly a
lot to be said about IT degrees....for example the january Linux
Journal's article "Point/Counterpoint - Education vs. Experience" at
Point/Counterpoint - Education vs. Experience | Linux Journal (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10637) may be interesting to many..

--
palladium

Just testifies what I said previously, MSCE in late 90's was based on where was the checkbox for this and that. I've never made other certs, neither I do work as an IT professional for 5 years (except some consulting for a couple of trusted companies whom I've worked in the past).

Well my NDA doesn't cover this, but one of the companies I've worked in the early 2000, had around 300 people coming every year as the final step of their degree, 2 or 3 would be hired, the rest went off because their productivity was close to null.

Honestly verified experience is actually what matters, and some psycho-technic evaluation should be able to sort it out. Personally, no lifers are usually the best choice...

hendersj
13-Feb-2010, 13:08
On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:46:02 +0000, nmarques78 wrote:

> I don't want to be disruptive, but this has to be said at some point.
>
> "Free, as in freedom of speech, not as in free beer".

Well, the discussion here has been largely about open development, which
is more along the "libre" definition than the "cost" definition. :-)

> People do want everything for free... Let's make a small metaphore here.
>
> You want something to be certified for sale within European Union, it
> has to be certified with "CE", same applies to the US and other parts of
> the world with "RoHS" certification.
> This process involves a credited institution like SGS, TüV, APCER or
> whatever. This process involves money spending.

That's not necessarily the case. Let me clarify something here; I work
for Novell in the training department. Accreditation is something that
is useful, but it's not something that's mandatory. IT certifications
are used to measure a minimum knowledge and/or skill level - nothing
more, and nothing less.

Also understand that coming from an IT background, I also have been
skeptical of the value of certification (I only got my LPIC-1 and Novell
certifications after starting to work for Novell as a technical trainer).

> If you realize that you want a "free" course, lets compare to something
> such as Microsoft Certified (mouse) Engineer or eventually Red Hat
> certified Engineer, which is credited by Microsoft (for MSCE) and Red
> Hat (RHCE). This involves spending money.

Traditional certifications do involve spending money, yes. However, the
face of technical certifications has been undergoing a transition for the
past several years.

> Yet again, Novell is in business to make money. From the Marketing
> perspective it comes down to this:
>
> Goal of a Organization: Generate revenue/proffit (can come in several
> ways, like social profit, finantial profit, etc). Means of an
> Organization: The Product Target of an Organization: People in general,
> consumers.
>
> I would suppose Novell is spending money on this, as such they have to
> get their revenue from someplace. I would doubt they would be giving
> away free courses (certified like the commercial ones from Red Hat for
> instance), without taking nothing from the process.

Well, consider that revenue comes from products; from a training
perspective, there's a cost offset, but I don't see revenue generation as
a primary goal for the part of the business I work in. My goal is to
reach as many customers as I can - and I can see that there is a benefit
to Novell in raising brand awareness through the community development of
such materials. Sure, Novell is in business to make a profit - and as
big a profit as possible. But there are many ways to accomplish that
goal, and just building things and saying "pay for it or you can't have
it", while being one model, isn't the only model. It's certainly the
simplest model, though.

Another model is to invest (as you allude to in your next paragraph) in
community resources and then leverage that investment in a way that
brings in more bottom-line product revenue.

Personally, I see this type of project as that type of investment in the
community. Now, I'm not someone with any budgetary authority inside
Novell, I'm just a guy who manages part of our testing program in the
training organization. But I also understand the value and have been
doing a bit of selling of this idea internally as well - it's not much
different than an idea I pitched about 6 years ago, in fact (though this
idea is much more developed).

> The sad truth is that everyone is deviating from "freedom of speech" to
> "free as in free beer".

This is largely a limitation of the English language, though - I think
most people understand the distinction, but "no cost" is something that's
more tangible. "Libre" is something that's more easily understandable by
developers, which I think it's fair to say is who Stallman's intended
audience for the term is/was.

> Honestly for those who have done MSCE (I did it back on NT4.0), we know
> what this courses actually are, and in most cases are a waste of money.
> Where to click, what to enable, blah blah blah... But all of that is
> really crappy if you don't have low level knowledge on the system and
> protocols used. This why so many boxes are owned despite of all the
> progress in the last 10 years around security.

The problem here isn't necessarily that the certification has no value,
it's that the value that organizations assign to it is not what is
intended by those who create it. A certification, as I said above, is a
minimal measurement of skill or knowledge. It's a starting point, not
the end point. So you can have people who understand the theory of how
an operating system works, but have no idea how that applies in the real
world.

That's the *application* of knowledge/skills, which is something that a
certification traditionally does not measure.

It's not very different from getting your board certification in
medicine. You've passed your exams and proven what you know, but you
haven't operated on anyone in an operating room yet. The first time you
do that, you apply your knowledge and skills.

Granted, there are significant differences as well (a board-certified
medical doctor has been through much more rigorous training than the
average systems administrator - and that's as it should be).

> What you should aim actually is to have your local governament
> supporting Free Software, and use it on the educational system. This
> would make more sense.

I don't see that it has to be an "either/or" discussion. No reason to
not do both.

> I do recon a lot of places that when people apply for a job, if they
> mention things like MSCE, they're completly off the job oppurtunity,
> because it's a stupidity testemony.

There are companies that rely too heavily on certifications, that's
true. I applied for a job once with a company that insisted that because
I didn't have my CNE certification, I couldn't possibly know what I was
talking about, even though I'd written a book on the subject. I consider
it their loss, not mine.

That can go the other way as well; and that's up to the individual
candidate to decide. That doesn't mean that creating such a program has
no value.

> It's not a company or distribution provider that should form people on
> the real stuff, low level and protocol level. That as to come from
> somewhere else, like a degree, Masters, etc. Their role in this subject
> is what is really should be, handling some weird tools made for dummies.
> The quality of a sysadmin doesn't come from certifications ;) At least
> most of BOFH's around will know what I mean with this, and will recon
> that most stuff running on top of a Linux kernel is well documented, too
> well documented. If people wanna step over this learning process, they
> fail big time.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that having a system whereby someone can
educate themselves (be it in a classroom or with self-study options) and
then can validate their knowledge and demonstrate a minimum competence
level has no value.

Documentation is not always educational material; it tends to focus on
the "how" rather than the "why" of using elements of a system. In order
to be effective as a training tool, the student needs to understand why
they do something, I think. Just knowing the rote steps to accomplish a
task isn't enough, because that then removes the ability of the student
to apply their knowledge to other similar tasks.

For example, if a manual teaches you how to use sudo to allow non-root
users to use /sbin/shutdown and it also teaches you how to start yast to
manage network settings, those are good things. But if the student then
fails to combine the two skills to allow non-root users to use sudo to
manage network settings using yast, then the learning experience has been
a failure for that student.

The way that a training course gets around this where a manual perhaps
doesn't (though it won't always fail, because some students will take
initiative and figure out how to combine tasks just from reading the
manual) is by having an instructor (or supplemental material) that
describes what the sudo command does and why you would use it.

> Anyway, the best tool ever to help understanding linux, is vim, master
> vim, and you'll master all the rest :)

Well, that's an old-school approach, certainly. But not everyone works
the same way, either - and with a system like Linux, there's definitely
more than one way to do things. :-)

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator

hendersj
13-Feb-2010, 13:10
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:06:02 +0000, nmarques78 wrote:

> Honestly verified experience is actually what matters, and some
> psycho-technic evaluation should be able to sort it out.

The problem is that experience doesn't create itself; every single one of
us starts with zero experience. For those who are just starting out in
the field, they need something to provide them with information and
knowledge. From there you move to validation of knowledge and skills,
and that gets you into the entry level for starting to earn experience.

IOW, experience doesn't just come out of thin air. :-)

Jim


--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator

palladium
13-Feb-2010, 14:34
Jim Henderson wrote:
> IOW, experience doesn't just come out of thin air. :-)

back in former life i heard it said a little differently:

To produce a pilot out of flight school with the equivalent of ten
years combat experience ... is gonna take about ten years, at war ...
and a lot of luck.

--
palladium

hendersj
13-Feb-2010, 17:13
On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:34:28 +0000, palladium wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> IOW, experience doesn't just come out of thin air. :-)
>
> back in former life i heard it said a little differently:
>
> To produce a pilot out of flight school with the equivalent of ten years
> combat experience ... is gonna take about ten years, at war ... and a
> lot of luck.

That's a good way of putting it. :-)

Along the same lines, when I first started with Novell, I was asked to
train some consultants on eDirectory. They wanted 15 years' experience
(ie, "encapsulate everything you know") in one week.

Ain't gonna happen, no matter how good the instructor is.

But without the foundational knowledge that I did provide them with,
starting that learning curve couldn't start. It probably wouldn't take
them 15 years to learn it all, because they don't have to make the same
mistakes I made.

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator

dragonbite
15-Feb-2010, 11:31
If tutorials and training are on the subject of Linux, and they just happen to run openSUSE, then even without saying anything it becomes a marketing boon for openSUSE.

If you want something for professionals, then a certification course and paid-for training would be preferrable.

If you want to help spread Linux and Open Source to the general populous then zero-cost tutorials and training in the form of video, documentation and sample tutorials would go a long way and without having to say anything, having screenshots with openSUSE would subliminally market openSUSE to people that would not otherwise take note.

Even for the consumer students, this can be split between general consumers who just want to learn how to do things in Linux, and semi-professional people who maybe are running small businesses and want to learn how to use linux enough to benefit their business who would otherwise not spend or afford a full Novell/Red Hat/Canonical subscription.

anotheroldguy
15-Feb-2010, 18:42
Well as a person new to openSuse and Linux I can say that I, for one, would be all over some sort of a tutorial. I have found some on the net that have been helpful BUT... when I go to use what I think I have learned I find that commands have changed or are not the same in openSuse as in whatever distro the person who wrote the tutorial was using.

I would love to see a PDF basic tutorial that I could download and print to leave beside my computer so that when Firefox freezes like two nights ago and I am left wondering now what was that command that looked up that number thingy that I need to use the kill command. Or is there some other way? Or what to do when my very first kernel update kills X (10.1? 10.2?) and I am looking at a command prompt for about the first time since I quit using Fortran IV and punch cards... and the one I love the most... I download my new linux distro I load it I start to run it and I can not get access to the internet. So I shut down, load that other system I am trying to leave, get on the net, look up stuff, go back into openSuse try that back to the other and so on.

I could go on but I won't. Tutorials would be great. Short tutorials for new people that could be printed would also be great.

And, yes I would be interested in doing some sort of a test and getting a certificate to hang on the wall. But the big one for me is still some sort of a printable short lets get it started and running tutorial. And yes I know most of this is already here in the forums but it can be really hard to find the first few times you come here until you start to find your way around. I guess it might save some people a lot of time too, here I am thinking about people (to name only two as examples not to leave anyone else out) like oldcpu and lwfinger who seem to answer the same questions over and over (as I am sure others do to.)

But, having written a book where I planned a short post, I will leave off with YES tutorials would be great.

palladium
16-Feb-2010, 02:20
anotheroldguy wrote:
> I would love to see a PDF basic tutorial that I could download and
> print to leave beside my computer so that when

go here and download all that you think you will need
http://www.novell.com/documentation/opensuse112/

and, see a previous post of mine on the subject of tutorials, guides
and what-nots for new to Linux folks (or retreads as i guess you might
be):

http://tinyurl.com/ybklh48

that should get you started.....

oh, whatever you do, do not overlook the items in there pointing
toward 'generic linux', especially http://rute.2038bug.com/ which *is*
available as a PDF download and worthy of all the trees you are gonna
kill to have it sitting next to your computer, or easy chair!! imho,

--
palladium

anotheroldguy
17-Feb-2010, 18:09
Thanks for the great list. Lots of reading there. Sorry to be so long getting back to this.

palladium
18-Feb-2010, 02:49
anotheroldguy wrote:
> Thanks for the great list.

-welcome-

> Sorry to be so long getting back to this.

old folks are like that...i know..

--
palladium

futureboy
29-Jun-2010, 17:22
I can say that something like this would be of great interest to me. I like self-taught, self-paced things that I can do something with.

hendersj
30-Jun-2010, 14:18
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 00:26:02 +0000, futureboy wrote:

> I can say that something like this would be of great interest to me. I
> like self-taught, self-paced things that I can do something with.

What level of information would be most useful for you? There's a
discussion going on about how best to meet the needs, and I know for my
part I'd like to find some participants in the target audience to do an
analysis of the needs.

Jim



--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator

futureboy
01-Jul-2010, 13:07
What I'm thinking is, to become an "expert" on very focused attributes to the SUSE (openSUSE, whatever) systems. Like a very intensive course on one or two components of YaST, at a time. For instance. A complete course on this is how the software management components work, down to the nuts and bolts of it. Explain how the medium repositories are configured, understand how the GPG keys work and if you get a GPG key error understand why so that users can better diagnose and help to improve systems or maybe even suggest better ways of doing it.

I'd say, my thought is to break down systems in SUSE into small courses that we can take that I think would encourage more education of this distro. I think you could have for-fee tests as I agree with an earlier post, if you don't have a price, on it, how do you really determine if it has value.

Learning should be for free but actual certification should cost some dollars.

oldcpu
10-Jul-2010, 15:00
Its actually fairly easy to capture the screen to a video, ... although it takes some time to piece it together to look smoother. Here is a demo I made recently for openSUSE-11.3 LXDE desktop: YouTube - LXDE demo on openSUSE-11.3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQtkX1kq7b0)

I created this video by installing openSUSE-11.3 RC1 LXDE from DVD in a Virtual Box session on my Core i7. I gave LXDE 1 (of 8) cores and assigned it 1GB of RAM. I deliberately selected a low resolution of 800x600. I then on the host OS captured this video (of the client openSUSE LXDE on Virtual Box) with the program 'xvidcap'.
http://thumbnails30.imagebam.com/8805/e4526188045758.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e4526188045758)

I actually captured it into different pieces, so that I could fix certain pieces if I really messed them up, without having to redo the entire video.

I then dragged the video clips into kdenlive, and positioned them the way I wanted them. I then rendered this to one temporary output video file. Then I played that temporary video, and created a new audio track (talking into the mic) while the video played. Again, I created short audio clips, so that I could replace one if I really messed up the audio (without having to do then entire audio by scratch). Once the many short audio clips were made, I again went into kdenlive, and replaced the original audio clip with the replacement 'dubbed' audio clips.

I also added a conservative audio (music) track at low volume levels in the background. This audio (music) is non-copyright.

I then rendered the file, and uploaded it to youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQtkX1kq7b0). ... its not professional, but it does show what can be done without too much effort.

dragonbite
10-Jul-2010, 20:21
So that's what you sound like ;)

The video looked pretty good.

hendersj
11-Jul-2010, 16:53
On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 21:56:43 +0000, futureboy wrote:

> What I'm thinking is, to become an "expert" on very focused attributes
> to the SUSE (openSUSE, whatever) systems. Like a very intensive course
> on one or two components of YaST, at a time. For instance. A complete
> course on this is how the software management components work, down to
> the nuts and bolts of it. Explain how the medium repositories are
> configured, understand how the GPG keys work and if you get a GPG key
> error understand why so that users can better diagnose and help to
> improve systems or maybe even suggest better ways of doing it.

Good suggestions - something I'll keep in mind.

> I'd say, my thought is to break down systems in SUSE into small courses
> that we can take that I think would encourage more education of this
> distro. I think you could have for-fee tests as I agree with an earlier
> post, if you don't have a price, on it, how do you really determine if
> it has value.
>
> Learning should be for free but actual certification should cost some
> dollars.

The challenge with exams is that to publish an exam costs money - which
means someone has to have a budget. I can find out the cost for
publishing an exam through VUE (I used to know it but don't recall) - but
it wasn't inexpensive. Certainly agree with the "cost = value" piece,
though, although it could also be argued that the success of OSS flies in
the face of that. :-)

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator