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BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 00:24
Marketing OpenSUSE is an interesting problem. I installed it yesterday as a prior user of Linspire, and current (frustrated) XP user.

Imagine my excitement at using what I was first told was "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" and then during installation "the World's friendliest computer system" or words to that effect.

Imagine, then, my disappointment at wiping XP from my hard drive, being guided through an exciting start up process, and realizing that when it's all done simply plugging in a network cable from a VDSL router doesn't allow me to connect to the Internet.

So once again it's the same Linux experience of trawling through forums to find people who have encountered the same problem (and unsuprisingly, there are lots of them) and then relying on the time and effort of friendly, expert Linux amateurs to beg assistance with my particular problem.

OpenSUSE will never, ever, be taken up widely when the ability to plug in a 'live' network cable and go online to browse or send mail requires searching for information, posting code, and other little fixes. This simply does not happen with any version of Windows since 95, nor any version of Mac OS.

Marketing doesn't make problems like that go away, unfortunately.

Hoping to win people on the basis that it's not Windows, or that it's free to download just isn't enough.

Anyone who reads this , please treat as an observation, not a complaint; afterall I downloaded OpenSUSE free, and it's not Windows ;-]

caf4926
17-Sep-2009, 00:43
This simply does not happen with any version of Windows since 95
Quite simply not true I'm afraid. Can't comment on OSX.

XP -> would be more like it

If you want help just ask.
Probably all you needed to do was go to Yast Network devices and configure your eth0

BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 01:21
OK, OK...I concede that may be a bit of an exaggeration. What I can say is that I've been using Windows since 95 and feel that it requires less 'skill' (almost zero) to get a connection up and running, and that for many systems plugging a cable in the back is about as far as you need to go.

The idea of openSUSE is brilliant; my point was that whilst I'm up for learning more about how my PC works and getting help with fixes and workarounds from a community of experts, people like my parents (or my children) aren't.

My observation was that marketing is a little besides the point when the basic problem exists that the openSUSE flavour of Linux is similar to previous versions inasmuch as it is not quite as user-friendly and 'obvious' as it could be!

(I'm searching through the forums for advice, before asking for help. My problem is that once I'm back at home, I can't get on the net to post outputs or ask sensible questions.)

techwiz03
17-Sep-2009, 01:42
Quite simply not true I'm afraid. Can't comment on OSX.

XP -> would be more like it

If you want help just ask.
Probably all you needed to do was go to Yast Network devices and configure your eth0

You are primarily right. However, with every OS ever built for as long back as I can remember there has always been issues with some piece of hardware not melding into the system seamlessly. While M$ tries to handle these situations they in fact don't. M$ relies on manufacturers to provide much of the i/o structure. The biggest obstacle Linux has had has been lack of device support, followed closely with poor documentation.

I downloaded the openSUSE 11.1 distro and burnt it to DVD. When I did this there was info that explained how to download and install but absolutely nothing on the DVD or on the website that gave some pointers like visit Yast from the start menu to configure many settings that may not have been configured right.

Someone truely coming from M$ environment or with no PC experience would surely be lost right from the start.

Also whats with all this old Linux documentation with misspelled words, bad english etc.. That's a real killer to trying convince people that us nixers aren't geeky, illiterate, children playing and jesting that "we can better than you can do... ha ha hahaha"

or that's MHO!rotfl!

caf4926
17-Sep-2009, 02:53
@techwiz03
You are correct, I didn't want to get in to the in's and out's of OEM and Vendor Bloatware.
I had it in a Vista Install that shipped with my Lenovo. When I wiped the disc and re-installed Vista using a Full Non-OEM DVD, all the rubbish had gone but I really had some leg work to get all the drivers. It was far from a commonly quoted phrase we see here: "In windows it just works". Blah..Blah..

openSUSE on the other hand needed no such leg work. Worked literally out of the box!;)

consused
17-Sep-2009, 04:01
You are primarily right. However, with every OS ever built for as long back as I can remember there has always been issues with some piece of hardware...

...Also whats with all this old Linux documentation with misspelled words, bad english etc..
Drivers and documentation (D&D). I agree that hits the spot. Although similar to caf4926's point, I just hope we are not going to attempt a repeat of another marathon thread on new user turnoffs. It exists already under another title, and it's easy to find. :)

While we on the subject of user experience, there is one issue that should be addressed if any linux distro is to become mainstream on the desktop: a third "D". There are some developers who are so disconnected from the DE and the user experience, that they still won't get it! There is a big difference between the server and desktop marketplaces, in terms of user requirements and hardware platforms.

BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 05:04
It wasn't my aim to start a thread on new-user turnoffs, just to point out that there are issues that I have faced that I haven't (yet)had with other systems. So, my experience was that, as far as marketing goes, some of the "World's easiest..." hyperbole could be turned down a notch or two until it's even vaguely applicable to new/average/home users.

Without any kind of partisan affiliation I find it interesting to note that an "Oh no it isn't!" and "Windows is worse for the following reasons..." vibe has already crept into the above posts.

I realise I am talking to Linux die-hards, and am always grateful for the advice, but if it worked right out of the box for me, I would maybe have posted to say "Why doesn't everybody try this?!" Instead of "Why doesn't this work?"

Again, thanks to everybody for their interest.

Confuseling
17-Sep-2009, 05:07
So... to address your original point (or at least make explicit what others have said), it might seem like a waste of effort marketing something that 'isn't finished', and you are certainly right that you *should* be able to plug in a network cable and have your network detected.

But it's a chicken and egg situation - unless hardware manufacturers support Linux (and increasingly, slowly but surely, they do), that won't happen.

Increased uptake helps massively with that, and marketing increases uptake...

[posted that before I read your last post. But I think you get our point, and we get yours :)]

BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 05:14
Exactly!
;)

(BTW I am going to persist with openSUSE, for all sorts of reasons, and have already got a few ideas on how to fix this particular irk.)

Knurpht
17-Sep-2009, 05:19
On one thing I agree: networking should always work. I know, a lot of work on that is being done, and we're slowly getting past the point where the OEM's cannot simply ignore linux. That would solve matters.

On 'On Windows it simply works': try this:
reinstall XP or Vista on a laptop from the hidden partition and see what happens. I spent over 6 hours on an XP laptop which on both wired and wireless networking to download the driver at the manufacturor. Another 2 hours to remove all reinstalled trialware.
It's a matter of personal favor, but I'd rather have spent the 8 hours here to find out how to get the networking going. BTW both cards worked OOB with openSUSE 11.0........

Confuseling
17-Sep-2009, 05:51
Exactly!
;)

(BTW I am going to persist with openSUSE, for all sorts of reasons, and have already got a few ideas on how to fix this particular irk.)

Well, good luck. :) If you post without searching, those answering you get annoyed. If you search without posting, you get annoyed. People here generally will try to help anyone that displays a little bit of good faith effort themselves - but you don't need to go overboard.

I don't think SUSE is the single friendliest linux forum, and it probably isn't the single most technically competent either...

In this, as in most things, the trick is getting the balance right! :)

platinum
17-Sep-2009, 05:51
> So, my experience was

since you have only been here a few days i can only guess that your
experience was either a background in Windows[tm] or Apple[tm]
software and so you thought whichever of those you were most
comfortable with was 'easy'..

whereas the 60+ year old Danish granny that _began_ her surfing with
Firefox on SuSE 9.x goes on vacation to Spain and is forced to use the
Internet Cafe's Window[tm] she complains how user UNfriendly and
difficult it is..

she is not a Linux die-hard, just another user but with a different
experience and view of the world from you...the sooner you cease
trying to pretend that _your_ experience should be the STANDARD for
all users, the sooner you can get on with and enjoy the freedom of
open source software..

hmmmm...now that i think about it more i can probably guess you are
one of those Software Evangelist getting a regular paycheck from that
campus in Redmond Washington....the more of you i see around here the
better it makes me feel....i know both Steve and Bill are pretty tight
with their pocket change, and only begrudgingly hire folks to spread
FUD and lies..

i wonder if we will ever see you again after this particular eight
hour shift is over...or, if as usual you just come back with a
different ID..

--
platinum

wakou
17-Sep-2009, 05:55
Just a small 2c worth, as a notorious moaner on these forums, and still sceptical openSuse user, (hence my silly avatar, must get round to changing that!) I have to report that my notoriously unsupported networking hardware worked without any real intervention on my part, IIRC, I enabled the firmware, filled in a box with the access password, and have never had to tinker with it at all. In fact, now I think of it, the whole process was SO seamless that I do not know to this day how it is handled under the bonnet.

Confuseling
17-Sep-2009, 05:58
...(hence my silly avatar, must get round to changing that!)

Noooo!

I think it's funny (and to a fair extent true). :)

BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 06:13
Interesting response platinum :sarcastic:

Tell me, do people call you that because of your tinfoil hat?

MattBClassic
17-Sep-2009, 06:33
Marketing OpenSUSE is an interesting problem. I installed it yesterday as a prior user of Linspire, and current (frustrated) XP user.

Imagine my excitement at using what I was first told was "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" and then during installation "the World's friendliest computer system" or words to that effect.

Imagine, then, my disappointment at wiping XP from my hard drive, being guided through an exciting start up process, and realizing that when it's all done simply plugging in a network cable from a VDSL router doesn't allow me to connect to the Internet.

So once again it's the same Linux experience of trawling through forums to find people who have encountered the same problem (and unsuprisingly, there are lots of them) and then relying on the time and effort of friendly, expert Linux amateurs to beg assistance with my particular problem.

OpenSUSE will never, ever, be taken up widely when the ability to plug in a 'live' network cable and go online to browse or send mail requires searching for information, posting code, and other little fixes. This simply does not happen with any version of Windows since 95, nor any version of Mac OS.

Marketing doesn't make problems like that go away, unfortunately.

Hoping to win people on the basis that it's not Windows, or that it's free to download just isn't enough.

Anyone who reads this , please treat as an observation, not a complaint; afterall I downloaded OpenSUSE free, and it's not Windows ;-]

The problem is you are making conclusions from entirely differing base conditions. The Windows versions that you were using undoubtedly were pre-loaded and thus setup to work with the Hardware that came with the computer. Had you simply bought HW, and assembled your own computer than installed the Windows version, you may have found the same frustrations in trying to get everything to work. I understand that Win XP SP 3 is better at driver detection than earlier incarnations and is able to get the common ones loaded off the Net, however that does not happen if your means of getting on the net is not initially detected. Which would mean you would need a driver from the Manufacture to get things going. My last experience with Windows was 98SE so I am not totally familiar with XP though I have encountered it and 98 was anything but easy when it came to detecting and configuring HW.

As for Marketing would you have agreed with "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" if your stuff had worked? For many it does. If it had for you, would you have complained to the Forum or simply never bothered to post anything? If everything "just works' for someone the chance of them, "trawling through forums to find people who have encountered the same problem (and unsuprisingly, there are lots of them) and then relying on the time and effort of friendly, expert Linux amateurs to beg assistance with my particular problem.", is not likely. BTW finding those with questions and problems on a Help Forum are not too unlikely do you think?

It is actually a problem keeping Forums going when Linux and openSUSE has gotten so easy that the majority of the time no one needs help.

BBQCH
17-Sep-2009, 06:47
Good point, but...

My experience of XP was based on loading it myself; just saying that I found it easier.

The last version of Linux I tried was Linspire, that was few years ago, and it was my experience that it was still easier than this, because I put a cable in the back and surfed the net shortly after loading it. So at present I rate it as "easier".

I wasn't here complaining. I made an observation regarding overselling user-friendliness to inexperienced users.

If I'd had a successful first experience out of the box, it is very likely that I would have posted to recommend it. I made that point earlier.

Funny that people still seem to get hot under the collar about this....

I didn't attempt to foist anything on anyone, just reported a negative first impression based on unrealistic expectations.

Chillax people.

I think this post is done.

platinum
17-Sep-2009, 06:54
BBQCH wrote:
> Interesting response platinum :sarcastic:

thank you i try to remain interesting yet mysterious..

> Tell me, do people call you that because of your tinfoil hat?

i guess by that you are attempting to label me a baseless paranoid..

no, they call me platinum because i'm worth more than my weight in
gold, by a LONG shot..

in fact i've been through all of this before, as i dealt with
Washington State FUD Merchants daily back in the '90s when Bill &
Steve were running scared from IBM's OS/2....their success with
killing Warp was more a function of most of IBM's Brass' hate for the
little machine market siphoning off Big Iron's ad budgets to fund
super bowl extravaganza than either technical capability or
advertising/marketing of FUD..

sorry, but the FUD won't work this time...neither against openSUSE in
particular or open source in general..

hey, did you hear that the default browser on the Sony Vaio is
Chrome....hehe....Steve can cuss throw all the chairs he wants, he
ain't gonna bury Google or Linux..

lets see, five years: GOOG +317%, IBM +40%, MSFT -8.9%, NOVL -28.8%

yep, both M$ and Novell are loosers..


--
platinum
Give a hacker a fish and you feed him for a day.
Label him a FUD pusher and you mark him for a lifetime.

consused
17-Sep-2009, 07:33
Good point, but...

I wasn't here complaining. I made an observation regarding overselling user-friendliness to inexperienced users.
And it was originally clearly stated. Some can't read or listen, because they are waiting to talk about their personal issue/beef/axe to grind. :)


Funny that people still seem to get hot under the collar about this.... Stay a while, you will come to know the usual suspects.

You actually achieved something by posting in Marketing. I haven't seen a troll-sniffer here before. It's amazing how they get wind of somebody mentioning "Windows does this a bit better", as if it couldn't happen lol!.

consused
17-Sep-2009, 08:03
in fact i've been through all of this before, as i dealt with
Washington State FUD Merchants daily back in the '90s when Bill &
Steve were running scared from IBM's OS/2....their success with
killing Warp... lol! rotfl! rotfl! That's when the metal fatigue started.

MattBClassic
17-Sep-2009, 08:25
I wasn't here complaining. I made an observation regarding overselling user-friendliness to inexperienced users.
An I simply observed back that your comment was based on a Sample size of one incidence.


If I'd had a successful first experience out of the box, it is very likely that I would have posted to recommend it. I made that point earlier.
Possibly, if we accept that as being true, considering that your statement concerning Windows worked without issue back to '95 (you retracted that partially in a later post) I therefore concluded you are given to slight hyperbole. Considering you were inveigling against what you thought was hyperbole in the marketing words of openSUSE. You than were guilty of the same infraction.




Funny that people still seem to get hot under the collar about this....

Bothers me not.



I didn't attempt to foist anything on anyone, just reported a negative first impression based on unrealistic expectations.

Chillax people.

I think this post is done.

And you got responses that by and far were countering observations and very little fan boyism existed in them. So, if that does not make a discussion *shrugs*, than so be it. Your Personal Observations on perceived overstatements in marketing does not prove your thesis.

As for Consused, your response in Support of the GP indicates a less than complete read of the subject matter as well as a jump to conclusions not supported by a thorough reading.

consused
17-Sep-2009, 10:25
As for Consused, your response in Support of the GP indicates a less than complete read of the subject matter as well as a jump to conclusions not supported by a thorough reading.
Huh, "Support of the GP"? Jargon? Your jargon, not mine.

I read BBQCH's original post thoroughly, within the context of a "Marketing Forum". I thought he presented his own observations (the picture) as just that - observations, and contrasted them with "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux", arguably one of the silliest marketing straplines -- it's so 1990's. Why, because there will be many opportunities for a user to prove it wrong. Better to drop the "World's", I think.

Well, Mattb after analysing the brush strokes, you finally got around to "As for Marketing" followed by a good few hypothetical what-ifs mostly about forums, ending with this statement:

It is actually a problem keeping Forums going when Linux and openSUSE has gotten so easy that the majority of the time no one needs help.
So, are forums the justification for having the problems... I think not. It may come as a surprise to you that the vast majority of computer users in the world beyond linux don't expect to have to trawl forums anyway. Then again, it sounded all rather acedemic.

As for your personal comments that amount to "it's the fault of the reader", you know what they say about communication. ;)

MattBClassic
17-Sep-2009, 13:31
Never used the term "As for Marketing" I believe the term used was "As for Consused". Now a discussion regarding the term "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" as a Slogan could be reasonable. But in context of the Inexperienced user (one assumes this means inexperienced computer user regardless of OS), the GP (Grandparent poster) comments that a inexperienced computer user (such as himself was implied) could be turned off by that Marketing statement when his use of openSUSE did not live up to the hype. The problem is the Topic starter is not a inexperienced computer user. When challenged, he allowed as to how he loads his own Windows. This puts him outside the group that he is making the observation about.

That is what I mean when you have not used critical reading skills Consused. You did not look deeper into the status of the poster and whether his observation was fairly made. Now if he had observed "although I am a skilled computer user, I think that the Marketing statement is in error since I had problems", then I could except that as being a reasonable discussion. Nothing against you personally but if you engage in good rhetoric it makes for a lively debate.

As for my Statement concerning Forums that you quoted, you once again missed the point. The Forums do not justify having problems. Having little problems can remove justification for a active Forum. Think why you are here. If no one came on to ask for assistance it would feel like being the Maytag Repairmen as dramatized in Commercials years back. Boring.:)

MattBClassic
17-Sep-2009, 14:38
As a Addendum: The Marketing quotes that started this discussion I have not seen other than as posted here. So it is possible that they do not exist in the form quoted. I would think if they said instead "openSUSE is one of the Worlds friendliest Linux Desktops" than the discussion would be of a different scope. Does anyone have a link to the actual Marketing Statements?

consused
17-Sep-2009, 18:44
Never used the term "As for Marketing" Oh, really, see post #16. I copied it from there. ;)


Now a discussion regarding the term "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" as a Slogan could be reasonable. But in context of the Inexperienced user (one assumes this means inexperienced computer user regardless of OS), the GP (Grandparent poster) comments that a inexperienced computer user (such as himself was implied) could be turned off by that Marketing statement when his use of openSUSE did not live up to the hype. The problem is the Topic starter is not a inexperienced computer user. When challenged, he allowed as to how he loads his own Windows. This puts him outside the group that he is making the observation about.So what, I don't have a problem with it, as you do! I don't believe it matters whether he is or isn't an experienced user. He is still entitled to compare his own experience against the claims of the strapline. If he is outside the group, it may result in a more objective comparison.

Your rather convoluted arguments remind me of a famous quote: "intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity". In the circumstances you could assist the reader by working on your spelling skills, MattB.


...you once again missed the point. The Forums do not justify having problems. Nonsense, as I said, "I think not", after the statement. It seems your reading skills deserted you.


Having little problems can remove justification for a active Forum.That was obvious and now you are labouring the point. However, I would prefer to lose the problems (unlikely given the development model), and if the forum dies as a result, it dies. :|

MattBClassic
17-Sep-2009, 19:47
Oh, really, see post #16. I copied it from there. ;)
Touché...


So what, I don't have a problem with it, as you do!
Not at all. I just pointed out your mistakes as you have pointed out mind (see previous touché) Unfortunately you are not one to admit any are you?


I don't believe it matters whether he is or isn't an experienced user.
That is your stance I do not have to accept it as mine. If I claim to be something as a basis for making a argument such as the classic "If someone as dumb as I am can do that" the argument is made by taking the stance that I fit into the class of dumb people (Most believe it is a valid group to place me in, but I am trying to make a point) for if I am not dumb, than my statement loses validity.



Your rather convoluted arguments remind me of a famous quote: "intoxicated by the exuberance of his own verbosity". In the circumstances you could assist the reader by working on your spelling skills, MattB. No convoluted at all unless you wish them to be. As for my spalling, it is almost as bad as my typing. I have little skills with the keyboard using a strange four fingers and the occasional thumb. Though I do use the spell checker in FF and it defaults to American English which may not be yours.

That you wish to alter the subject to something like my spelling is a argument style know as mis-direction. However I believe we have plumbed the depths of this and now it is just getting silly. The original poster has long past left and no longer is participating. So I think I will follow.

Good fortune!

platinum
18-Sep-2009, 04:26
guys, give it a break!

don't you see the M$ shill/FUD spreader/troll's shift has ended..

he just came here to get a loud discussion going..

drop it..

btw, s/he will be back...different name, different IP, different false
statement to begin the fight..

--
platinum

BBQCH
18-Sep-2009, 06:32
I'm still here...
still bemused by the hostility...
still without Internet access on SUSE :-(

Genuinely, thanks to all for the lively debate, I am really surprised by some of the reactions, but hey...that's forums for you, and the beauty of diversity of opinion.

I only posted so that platinum can get some rest. Buddy, no one is out to get you, and there is no agenda. At least not from me. I suggest you take a bath with some bubbles and a big glass of wine, it usually does the trick for me.

Check my IP address, I'm in Switzerland, not Redmond.

As much as I wish I could be financially compensated for creating this slightly tedious and taken-out-of-context thread, I am not in the employ of Bill or Steve.

All the best.

consused
18-Sep-2009, 07:35
...still without Internet access on SUSE :-(
Glad you are still with us, but I had to assume you didn't come to a marketing section of the forum for a solution to your networking problem. Post it in the appropriate Help section and you should get it there.

Good luck. :)

69_rs_ss
18-Sep-2009, 11:17
platinum wrote:
> guys, give it a break!
>
> don't you see the M$ shill/FUD spreader/troll's shift has ended..
>
Why is it that people believe that if someone doesn't like an aspect
about linux they are a shill/fud spreader/troll and not just a person
that has a different experience using a product? There was a post in
another sub-forum about what makes people leave linux and it is this
arrogance that linux is the be all end all and anyone with differing
opinions and experiences are sent from Microsoft to help perpetrate a
campaign to bring down linux.

techwiz03
19-Sep-2009, 01:16
platinum wrote:
> guys, give it a break!
>
> don't you see the M$ shill/FUD spreader/troll's shift has ended..
>
Why is it that people believe that if someone doesn't like an aspect
about linux they are a shill/fud spreader/troll and not just a person
that has a different experience using a product? There was a post in
another sub-forum about what makes people leave linux and it is this
arrogance that linux is the be all end all and anyone with differing
opinions and experiences are sent from Microsoft to help perpetrate a
campaign to bring down linux.

Think that may have been me. I tried to point out that someone considering trying Linux but used to Windows may jump ship before giving it a chance if they seek help and are confronted by rude belittling statements that in short tell them they are less than intelligent. They will do as asked and leave the community, and spread the word to everyone to stay clear.

IMHO one bad response does 100 times the damage as 1 favorable one. Bad responses = vote for M$, Good response = chance for Linux.

M$ isn't conspiring to bring down Linux directly, they know a few people will make the waters merky and adding pressure through court campaigns and news will also help them out.

platinum
19-Sep-2009, 01:47
> Why is it that people believe

because i have seen it before..

i understand your point...try to understand mine...the poster's FIRST
post ever is to the 'marketing' forum and begins with "Imagine my
excitement at using what I was first told was "the World's friendliest
Desktop Linux" and then during installation "the World's friendliest
computer system" or words to that effect."

and then continues with a long soapbox speech and a *tiny* description
of a networking problem, and no request for help..

so, where in the install did he come across 'the World's friendliest
computer system" or words to that effect.'

if he were for real, he would have been smart enough to post in the
networking section, asked a real question AND saved his FUD for soapbox..

--
platinum

consused
19-Sep-2009, 02:53
> Why is it that people believe

because i have seen it before..

i understand your point...try to understand mine...the poster's FIRST
post ever is to the 'marketing' forum and begins with "Imagine my
excitement at using what I was first told was "the World's friendliest
Desktop Linux" and then during installation "the World's friendliest
computer system" or words to that effect."
It's the right forum for making a point about the marketing, as he was. This time round, notice the word "excitement". Notice "he was told" and then paraphrases what he saw "during installation".


and then continues with a long soapbox speech and a *tiny* description
of a networking problem, and no request for help..Not long by any stretch of the imagination. No request for help, because he wasn't looking for help, but he was giving marketing feedback in a good place.


if he were for real, he would have been smart enough to post in the
networking section, asked a real question AND saved his FUD for soapbox..
You mean if he was smart like you. You can't know that; you are guessing, so you could easily be wrong. It would have made one of the weakest soapbox posts, IMO.

You must have come across "The customer is always right". Nobody actually believes that; it's just a useful position that customer-facing people adopt to avoid upsetting the customer. Ok you're not actually selling, but you are trying to assist the marketing of linux :)

techwiz03
19-Sep-2009, 04:05
>> Why is it that people believe
>platinum;2041778 said
>because i have seen it before..
So have I from time to time but I don't think so in this case.

>i understand .....try to understand mine...the poster's FIRST
>post ever is to the 'marketing' forum and begins with "Imagine
>my excitement at using what I was first told was "the World's
>friendliest Desktop Linux" and then during installation "the
>World's friendliest computer system" or words to that effect."
You've never been told by some one (friend maybe?) that something is just fantastic and then you try it and things are a bit disillusioning? It makes sense to me to visit the marketing section and express that someone told me this was a good product but my network didn't work so I think marketing feedback about my experience is warranted.

>and then continues with a long soapbox speech and a *tiny* >description of a networking problem, and no request for help..
Would he have been spanked for asking for network help under marketing? I really think he would have. So he was very wise to not ask for help but instead talk of his disillusionment with the networking.

>so, where in the install did he come across 'the World's >friendliest computer system" or words to that effect.'
Does it matter? I remember installing a Linux version may have been openSUSE but then it could also have been Ubuntu. Anyways there was a screen during install that says something like that, but like I said does it matter?

>if he were for real, he would have been smart enough to post in >the networking section, asked a real question AND saved his FUD >for soapbox..
This statement in my opinion is dangerous in a community! You have just called a visitor unreal without evidence, stupid for having a point of view, and a FUD spreader. Marketing is customer relations, public relations, and the like. Do you realize that our posts in this forum can be seen all over the world through google without even coming here? I'm not trying to hurt, but help you weight yourself ok.

platinum
19-Sep-2009, 04:47
ok, without proof, i was wrong to assume he is a FUD merchant..

i do hope he gets his networking figured out and becomes a happy user,
no matter who he works for nor why he chose to began his openSUSE
Linux journey with inflaming words and holding up other systems as
"the standard"..

and, whoever has the keys to the marketing department's door needs to
take a close look at all the different places the openSUSE 'community'
might have written/said "the World's friendliest Desktop Linux" or
"the World's friendliest computer system" and get REAL..

this industrial strength, adult, without training wheels operating
system is not now and will never be 'friendlier' than the game systems
made for kids by Sony, PlayStation or Microsoft..

so, why should marketing pretend it is as easy as dropping a coin in
the slot and playing..

--
platinum

BBQCH
21-Sep-2009, 03:20
I didn't post for help with the networking issue because I first wanted to search through all previous related-posts and not be accused of being lazy.

So I posted here to say that I had been a bit disappointed that I was expected to have a more advanced level of knowledge, than I was led to believe would be the case, to actually do to get my install working. Being made to feel like you're stupid is not, in my opinion, a good marketing tool.

Out in the real world, I guess I would be considered a fairly experienced user. I described myself as inexperienced because I am commenting to an elite/-ist group of computer enthusiasts (I do not, for example, know basic Linux command lines for use in the shell).

Turns out I did get my network connection up by following advice given to another user!! (IPv6 issue :shame:). And am pretty happy except for a bunch of little problems, which I will be sure to post in the correct tech sections when I have researched solutions that others used further.

As an aside, I have participated in all kinds of forums related to other hobbies (mostly car-related) and never met with such misplaced evangelism, never been accused of being in the pay of Mercedes when describing problems with my BMW.

It is off-putting to those who wish to participate, and those who use the forum because they (need help and) want to improve the user experience for the next person who jumps ship from Windows, which is BTW a standard by default for most home users. If Windows is more successful than it 'should be' I reckon marketing might have had a role to play.

A big thank you to all for your interest in this thread, I genuinely had no idea it would prove to be so controversial.

MattBClassic
21-Sep-2009, 06:36
Glad you got your Net going. Good job!

As to the Marketing (there I use the phrase again!), since you are not from the US, you may not be aware with the sheer volume of this stuff that those from the US are inundated with each and every moment. It breeds a distrust of any claim from products such that I never accept any of it until I independently research it myself.

I belong to many Forums and have encountered evangelism (there are fan boyz and grrls everywhere) much more strident than the minor amount you found here. I suspect if you posted a similar Thread as a new member to a enthusiast car Forum that (Brand) had misleading marketing statements and you did not have the "Ultimate Driving Experience". You would get a few snarky comments back.

Wish you good luck with your openSUSE exploration. When you need help, do not get frustrated, ask for assistance.

dragonbite
21-Sep-2009, 06:57
In response to "Windows just works", I just installed Windows XP on a fresh hard drive for my laptop over the weekend (actually, started Thursday).

Windows just works, when you have the drivers and everything from the get-go. I have a CD that has all of the drivers for my particular machine but something has happened to the CD and it cannot be read!

So to make a long story short, I had to go to the Dell site, put in the service tag and compare the list of Drivers on the site with the results of # lspci on the laptop in Linux.

I still don't have wireless working, but audio, video and wired network are working.

I was sooo tempted to throw my hands in the air and grab a Linux CD (just about ANY Linux CD!) but I was putting XP on this machine for my wife (and kids). At least then I would know (as I was running Linux on it before) that wireless was going to be the only sticking point and how to get the Broadcom working in Linux.

In short, though, once I got video/etc running I was able to install apps and devices without any further issue, and things work fully.

smpoole7
21-Sep-2009, 17:50
Exactly!
;)

(BTW I am going to persist with openSUSE, for all sorts of reasons, and have already got a few ideas on how to fix this particular irk.)

Actually, if it's wired networking, I'm surprised that doesn't work. Usually, it's wireless that gives the issues. I haven't had a wired network fail to work right after install under Linux in quite a while ...

... EXCEPT for the Broadcomm NICs in one of our Dell Poweredge servers at work. That one was a buggy bear; trying to do an OS 11.1 64-bit Net install, it would DHCP and successfully get an IP address, but would go no further. "No repositories found." A quick Web search showed that some drivers used for Broadcomm have issues. I switched that particular server to CentOS (which apparently uses different drivers) and it worked fine.

But that's the exception, not the rule.

Start a new thread here about your issue and someone will help you sort it out.

consused
22-Sep-2009, 03:57
Actually, if it's wired networking, I'm surprised that doesn't work. Usually, it's wireless that gives the issues. I haven't had a wired network fail to work right after install under Linux in quite a while ...
That's perfectly true. I haven't experienced a problem with wired on installing, at least from 10.3 onwards. I get no problems flip-flopping between a cable (modem) and ADSL (modem/router) based broadbands, between reboots, i.e. no config changes needed. I haven't tried it "on the fly" yet.


Start a new thread here about your issue and someone will help you sort it out.Hope you meant in another place - a help section - not this one. :)

BBQCH
22-Sep-2009, 05:04
@MattBClassic

...you did not have the "Ultimate Driving Experience"
Point taken ;)

(Come to think of it that's a bit of a dodgy strapline...I never want to get into my car and have it be the ultimate driving experience :O )

Tech questions will of course be posted in the appropriate place.

Thanks Guys.

consused
22-Sep-2009, 05:24
As to the Marketing (there I use the phrase again!), since you are not from the US, you may not be aware with the sheer volume of this stuff that those from the US are inundated with each and every moment. It breeds a distrust of any claim from products such that I never accept any of it until I independently research it myself.Or try "Advertising" (a tool of marketing). Overall, I sympathize with your "inundation". Thanks to the internet, and it's "revenue from advertising" model, I think that a large portion (>50% maybe) of UK population are well aware that the volume is large and increasing. The US model seems to be pervading the world. We get advertising material through the letterbox (courtesy of the Royal Mail's err... junk mail service), on an ever increasing set of TV channels, local radio, internet, newspapers, magazines, shopping centres, buses, company vehicles, and sports venues (etc.). The increase has been dramatic here over the last 10 years. So far, we still have considerably less roadside hoardings (but less space for it).

It's often said that the US has more of a "sales culture" than the UK. I think that is true, by my own experience. One benefit from that culture can be a more professional approach from sales staff that should improve the more traditional shopping experience for the customer.

dragonbite
22-Sep-2009, 05:51
... EXCEPT for the Broadcomm NICs in one of our Dell Poweredge servers at work. That one was a buggy bear; trying to do an OS 11.1 64-bit Net install, it would DHCP and successfully get an IP address, but would go no further. "No repositories found." A quick Web search showed that some drivers used for Broadcomm have issues. I switched that particular server to CentOS (which apparently uses different drivers) and it worked fine.

Wouldn't it have been just as easy to get another NIC?

We had a server in the computer club which would not take CentOS or even Ubuntu due to RAID drivers and such. OpenSUSE, on the other hand, ran and installed without so much of a shrug of its shoulders!

Came to find that Red Hat had dropped support for that particular raid card at one point, and then reinstated it in a later version (presumably after enough customers complained when they ran across similar issues as we did).

daviddell
08-Nov-2009, 17:52
yeah, really interesting!

luvr1961
15-Nov-2009, 11:24
Imagine, then, my disappointment [...] realizing that when it's all done simply plugging in a network cable from a VDSL router doesn't allow me to connect to the Internet.

I have just installed openSUSE 11.2 on a computer with a wireless connection. It did connect to my router alright, and it got handed a valid IP address through DHCP, but it wouldn't go to the internet.

Turned out that it hadn't configured its route table correctly; this is the very first time that I had this happen to me, on any Linux distribution.

From my experiences with an earlier SuSE release, quite a few years ago, I remembered that SuSE used to have a deeply buried "Advanced" networking option, which at the time I had to tweak in order to make SuSE configure the DNS settings that it received from the router. Even then, I considered this issue a nuisance, for which there really wasn't any good reason.

The issue this time was somewhat similar; I edited the network connection, went to the "IP Address" tab, and noticed a list box from which I could select "Basic settings," "Additional addresses," and "Routes." Since the issue had something to do with routing, I selected the "Routes" option, which displayed two radio button options, both of which were selected:

"Ignore automatically obtained routes," which clearly had to be deselected;
"Use only for resources on this connection," which I initially did not understand, but which I had to deselect to ensure that the default route would pass through this network interface.

No big deal, really (one you understand it), but this (totally unnecessary) issue should not happen on a distribution that wants to be seen as "the easiest" Linux distribution available.

Knurpht
16-Nov-2009, 12:44
"Ignore automatically obtained routes," which clearly had to be deselected;
"Use only for resources on this connection," which I initially did not understand, but which I had to deselect to ensure that the default route would pass through this network interface.

No big deal, really (one you understand it), but this (totally unnecessary) issue should not happen on a distribution that wants to be seen as "the easiest" Linux distribution available.

You hit one right here. I found out about this today, on two 'wandering wifi users'. Once connected somewhere, the networkmanager will not only not take the default route (via DHCP), it will use the route of the last added connection (AFAICS). After unchecking these 2 boxes in all saved settings, they could connect and connect everywhere in the building to any wifi-router.

bigbearomaha
14-Feb-2010, 09:33
As others have already made the point regarding network connections (I never look for automatic configs myself, I want to know they are done the way I want them done.)

One of the problems with comparing Linux (in this case opensuse) to another OS like Windows is that the initial introduction to the OS is usually quite different.

Most users are introduced to Windows as a user first. They did not need to know how to install the OS and do all the specific configurations.

Most people are first introduced to Linux as an install and are often frustrated and confused as there are elements they have had little to no exposure to previously.

Also note that right or wrong, most people coming from Windows still have expectations that the new OS should behave as Windows does. Windows is a different OS and a different product entirely. All such expectations should be thrown out the window in my opinion.

Personally, I recommend installing Linux from an install DVD.
opensuse joins CentOS and debian as well as a few others in providing an excellent install dvd.

Installing from livecd's really does not give a new user the best start most times, in my thinking anyway.

That's my two cents on the situation.

Big Bear

BBQCH
16-Feb-2010, 03:29
I have to say that I agree with Big Bear on that. A lot is about expectations and many (dare I say most) people's expectations are based on having used Windows at some point.

When performing my second install of OpenSUSE, my limited degree of familiarity from my previous install made things MUCH easier. This came only a couple of months after performing a Windows 7 install on a friend's machine. I would say that the number of frustrations that had to be worked through in both instances was comparable. I would still maintain that first-time users of OpenSUSE will have an easier time if they have some sort of understanding of the processes that are going on 'backstage'. Windows is IMO still more 'intuitive' and at the level that I am familiar with it, does not seem to grant a significantly better experience to those who are highly technical: If I see a 'computer whizz' fiddling through a problem in Windows it looks remarkably similar to what I would do myself (i.e. mostly GUI stuff)...If I see a Linux master at work, it's straight into the shell and typing stuff that can only be learned, not intuited.

Having started this post, I would say that I was a little hasty in my initial assesment/criticism, and that having taken some time to learn through my frustrations, OpenSUSE 11.2 offers a comparable experience to Win7 for family computing. Interestingly, for their purposes, my kids make no distinction between these different OSs, they are equally comfortable with either.
Where OpenSUSE really scores is price, and level of support given by the enthusiasts on this forum. I'm often suprised and pleased by the willingness of the regulars to give up time to help random people on the other side of the planet.

A big thank you to all those who have helped ME!!