#3 Questions

[Chrysantine]

Originally Posted by microchip8

I certainly don't lock-in users into one single OS written for an in-house designed machine and dictate only that if I want to choose their platform.

Well you can still run Linux, BSD, Solaris and Windows or pretty much any other OS on the same machine ;-)

Originally Posted by microchip8

Surely with all your expertise you can make something that doesn't work out of the box on Linux, work with some effort.

That's the problem - I don't have the time or patience anymore to spend hours on end to make a soundcard work on Linux (For example trying to get 5.1/7.1 to work on a Yamaha amp was an unbelievable pain).

All I need anymore is something the "works now" instead of "works in a few hours".

Originally Posted by microchip8

Just look at their users. Complete clueless fashion/trendy/joks fags who buy Macs to be "cool" so they won't be left out from their clicks. They have no clue, nor are interested, in how Apple actually locks them in and not only that but also overcharges them in many cases.

And you'd be **** happy if you could get Linux to the same level and get those people to use it

Oh yes you would, big liar

Originally Posted by microchip8

Even Apple developers get treated ****ty as seen by how many of them complain, especially when it comes to developing stuff for Apple portable devices like crapPhone and iFart.

Well I have to disagree on that one - XCode is an amazing package and their devnet is actually really, really good.

Perhaps the mini-skirt helps here again ;-)

[Chrysantine]

Gah, I should've double checked the quotes again - I guess I'm too used to IPB whining and auto-fixing them for me

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by Chrysantine

Well you can still run Linux, BSD, Solaris and Windows or pretty much any other OS on the same machine ;-)

But what about running OS X on any other machine? What if a user finds OS X good but does not want to buy overpriced Apple junkware and instead wants to run it on his peecee at home? There's no legal way to do this and he must resort to hacked versions of OS X found on the Net because Apple is being too dumb to understand that if they open up OS X (as in make it available for all PCs, not just their own junkware) there's a very good chance it'll overtake Windows. Sure, when you open it up and has to support much wider set of HW, it can be tough but IMHO the benefit of selling OS X for all consumer PCs, not just Macs, is greater for many, including Apple itself (which is still thinking as if we're still in the 80s, early 90s). But knowing Apple and how secretive and closed they are, despite using and benefiting A LOT from open source technology/code but giving very little back (where's the popular iTunes for Linux? Where's QuickTime? (though admittedly *the* biggest junk ever to come from Apple)), that won't happen because uncle Steve, just as chair throwing monkey Ballmer, fit in the same closet full of lies, manipulations, and more importantly, control freaks from the 1st degree.

That's the problem - I don't have the time or patience anymore to spend hours on end to make a soundcard work on Linux (For example trying to get 5.1/7.1 to work on a Yamaha amp was an unbelievable pain).

All I need anymore is something the "works now" instead of "works in a few hours".

Then buy compatible stuff if you want to "just works". I can also throw incompatible HW at OS X and pull my hair off in trying to make it work.

And you'd be **** happy if you could get Linux to the same level and get those people to use it

Oh yes you would, big liar

What??? I don't care if you use Linux, Windows, OS X, or any other OS as long as you are not tied to a specific platform as is the case with Apple's OS. Big liar how? I couldn't care less if a fashion jok is as clueless as my cat and is being deceived by Apple in paying a ****load of $$$ just so he can be "cool" and maintain his superficial status among his click of friends. As for Windows, it's not so much the OS I dislike (though it's not for me) it's the fact that MS knows how to push it in your throat, whether you want it or not, and this applies even more to people who don't know about computers which are very easy targets for exploitation. MS even dictates and influences big giants like Intel and mobo manufacturers. Apple is even worse in my eyes. Pushing not only their OS but also their own HW. I have yet to see here a shop that sells Mac computers without the OS pre-installed

Well I have to disagree on that one - XCode is an amazing package and their devnet is actually really, really good.

XCode? are you ****ting me? I wasn't talking about XCode, I was talking about how Apple treats its own devs, especially those who code for their iJoke portable devices. Go dig a bit on Ars Technica forums, you'll see what I'm talking about (also don't overlook some of the past articles). Btw, did they fix that very critical Java bug yet? It's been sitting there for months and Apple's been ignoring it despite many reports from users.

Perhaps the mini-skirt helps here again ;-)

Won't work on me. I don't allow my judgment be deceived by such cheap things. You got great legs? Wow, great! so does she over there and the other one too, etc, etc...

[microchip8]

btw, since I can't edit stuff here, you completely ignored why Apple has the right to overcharge their stuff while it offers no more functionality/quality (even less I'd say compared to specific others who don't overcharge)?

[ken_yap]

Apple is being too dumb to understand that if they open up OS X (as in make it available for all PCs, not just their own junkware) there's a very good chance it'll overtake Windows

No, you're wrong there. Apple is not dumb. They know that exclusivity is part of their marketing image. If they opened it up, they might sell more units, but not make so much profit.

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by ken_yap

No, you're wrong there. Apple is not dumb. They know that exclusivity is part of their marketing image. If they opened it up, they might sell more units, but not make so much profit.

How is OS X more exclusive? I'll tell you. In order to use it, you must buy their HW which in turn locks you in into Apple stuff (OS+HW), the very same thing I was talking about. Their profit comes mostly from their overpriced shiny-looking HW, not so much from the OS itself as it sells for about the same amount as Windows, if not cheaper, and the sales volume is not even close to Windows. If they open up OS X for other HW, they'll see a huge sales boost, but at a huge expense of their HW side which will decline when people see that you no longer need a Mac to run it. Surely, Apple with its strong image and better design can profit from this, something like the lines of "oooohhh, Apple has opened up OS X and I can now run it on any PC I want? Great, lets buy it and replace Windows at home".... MS is not a HW company and yet they have achieved virtually total domination of the consumer PC market with the **** called Windows. I bet that when people hear that you no longer need to buy expensive Apple HW just so you can run their OS (which many people find better than Windows), this can quickly overturn things in favor of Apple and I bet MS will also be pushed even more to compete in order to try and maintain its dominance

[ken_yap]

If they open up OS X for other HW, they'll see a huge sales boost, but at a huge expense of their HW side which will decline when people see that you no longer need a Mac to run it. Surely, Apple with its strong image and better design can profit from this

Obviously Apple doesn't agree with your conjecture. Good luck convincing them.

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by ken_yap

Obviously Apple doesn't agree with your conjecture. Good luck convincing them.

of course they don't, mainly due to being control freaks and deluding people into buying their HW, which when they do, they get locked in. I won't spend any time on convincing them that they should be more open as it's a tradition for Apple in being stubborn/closed so they won't listen no matter what

[Chrysantine]

Originally Posted by microchip8

What if a user finds OS X good but does not want to buy overpriced Apple junkware and instead wants to run it on his peecee at home?

I don't see why Apple shouldn't be allowed to sell their product tied to their hardware, after all - it's their choice - as is your choice as a consumer not to buy the product if you are not pleased with it.

Vote with your wallet.

Originally Posted by microchip8

Sure, when you open it up and has to support much wider set of HW, it can be tough but IMHO the benefit of selling OS X for all consumer PCs, not just Macs, is greater for many, including Apple itself (which is still thinking as if we're still in the 80s, early 90s).

Mac tried that in the 90s and it almost destroyed the company. Much of the whole Mac experience comes from the fact that you have a set defined tools and hardware that 'get the job done' as opposed to throwing in random 3rd party devices that can bring the house down.

Originally Posted by microchip8

But knowing Apple and how secretive and closed they are, despite using and benefiting A LOT from open source technology/code but giving very little back (where's the popular iTunes for Linux? Where's QuickTime? (though admittedly *the* biggest junk ever to come from Apple))

Yes, they took some parts from BSD but to claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone and stolen from them is pretty much B.S. (In Penn & Teller style - which incidentally is a great show).

On that note, Quicktime and iTunes are pretty great on OS X - admittedly they blows on Windows but then again I don't care about Windows so it's pretty inconsequential to me.

Originally Posted by microchip8

Then buy compatible stuff if you want to "just works". I can also throw incompatible HW at OS X and pull my hair off in trying to make it work.

I've bought 'compatible' hardware for Linux often, only to find out it doesn't actually work at all or I have to wait months on end to get a random beta driver that supports a fraction of the capabilities of the card/device - most of the time the driver being written by some hobbyist at home with varying quality.

Oh yes, DVB world is such a wonderful thing.

Originally Posted by microchip8

I have yet to see here a shop that sells Mac computers without the OS pre-installed

And why should they? If you're going to buy a Mac, you'll most likely want to run OS X.

I'm sure if you ask of them to remove it, they will and sell you the machine without an OS.

Originally Posted by microchip8

I was talking about how Apple treats its own devs, especially those who code for their iJoke portable devices. Go dig a bit on Ars Technica forums, you'll see what I'm talking about (also don't overlook some of the past articles).

Since I do not code for iPhones or their various devices, I don't really know or care how they treat them - on the computer side the treatment alongside the tools are excellent.

Originally Posted by microchip8

Btw, did they fix that very critical Java bug yet? It's been sitting there for months and Apple's been ignoring it despite many reports from users.

I wouldn't know as I'm running Snow 'Seed' as my primary system and a 64-bit Java that seems to update every other day.

Originally Posted by microchip8

btw, since I can't edit stuff here, you completely ignored why Apple has the right to overcharge their stuff while it offers no more functionality/quality (even less I'd say compared to specific others who don't overcharge)?

The value of a tool is what you perceive it to be.

Apple have an "extra" on the hardware (and if you buy things like memory from them, they sure do as they're retarded expensive) but on the other hand the Macbook Pro I'm typing this message on has so far had 0 days, 0 hours and 0 minutes of actual software or hardware related downtime.

At the end of the day, use what you like - I will use Apple's products alongside Novell's in sweet harmony.

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by Chrysantine

I don't see why Apple shouldn't be allowed to sell their product tied to their hardware, after all - it's their choice - as is your choice as a consumer not to buy the product if you are not pleased with it.

Vote with your wallet.

You again missed what I wrote (sorry, I can't express myself that well in English as you can). I was talking about the OS itself. If I find it good and really want to use it but a) already have a decent PC machine at home so no need to buy another or b) do not have or want to give a lot of $$$ to buy a Mac just so I can run the OS itself, I am not offered a choice from Apple. You have to buy the Mac, no matter if one already has a decent PC at home, just so you can use the OS you may like very much.

Mac tried that in the 90s and it almost destroyed the company. Much of the whole Mac experience comes from the fact that you have a set defined tools and hardware that 'get the job done' as opposed to throwing in random 3rd party devices that can bring the house down.

There is no reason why 3rd party devices can't work as reliably as those offered by Apple. If Apple or those making the 3rd party devices, before pushing them to market, certify all of them and work closely, it can make a real difference. Strong cooperation between software and hardware companies can improve things for all parties and broaden the choice/compatibility. Unfortunately, we're far from this utopia

Yes, they took some parts from BSD but to claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone and stolen from them is pretty much B.S. (In Penn & Teller style - which incidentally is a great show).

On that note, Quicktime and iTunes are pretty great on OS X - admittedly they blows on Windows but then again I don't care about Windows so it's pretty inconsequential to me.

When did I claim that OS X is nothing but a BSD clone? I wasn't even talking about this. I was talking about their applications software (which is popular) like iTunes and QuickTime (doesn't matter the quality of it). I still can't run it on my Linux box. I still have troubles buying music from the Net as the first thing it tells me is that it didn't detect iTunes on my system and offers me to install it, but from where can I download it when it's not even available for my Linux OS?

I've bought 'compatible' hardware for Linux often, only to find out it doesn't actually work at all or I have to wait months on end to get a random beta driver that supports a fraction of the capabilities of the card/device - most of the time the driver being written by some hobbyist at home with varying quality.

Oh yes, DVB world is such a wonderful thing.

Eh, the same hobbyist who contributed a lot to Linux and made it run on everything? You think that closed drivers are so much better? Think again... /me looks at ATI and nVIDIA

And why should they? If you're going to buy a Mac, you'll most likely want to run OS X.

It's like saying that if you're going to buy a Dell, you'll most likely want to run Windows or if you're going to buy Lenovo/IBM, you'll most likely want to run AIX ... or if you're going to buy a Mazda, you'll most likely want to drive it on this or that road but not on the other ones

What I like is this: I choose the HW from the many vendors out there and when I do, I choose which OS I want to run on it, be it Linux, OS X or Windows. I can achieve this with Linux and partly with Windows (which, I must admit, MS is better here than Apple) but I can't do that with OS X. You wanna run it? You are obliged in buying *their* HW as it runs on nothing else

I'm sure if you ask of them to remove it, they will and sell you the machine without an OS.

I'll keep that in mind but don't hold your breath as I won't be buying from Apple

The value of a tool is what you perceive it to be.

Apple have an "extra" on the hardware (and if you buy things like memory from them, they sure do as they're retarded expensive) but on the other hand the Macbook Pro I'm typing this message on has so far had 0 days, 0 hours and 0 minutes of actual software or hardware related downtime.

At the end of the day, use what you like - I will use Apple's products alongside Novell's in sweet harmony.

The value of the tool is not just dependent on your own perception but also on other things such as factual quality and factual functionality. Even you must admit that a portable music player such as the iPod Shuffle with only 1GB of storage, no screen at all, and a poor excuse for an equalizer is not worth the €33 when compared to a similar player from a lesser known company but one that offers much more functionality, is of the same quality but costs only a few € more. Apple is charging so much because of its brand. You pay for it not because it has superior functionality or quality, but because it was made by a company called Apple.