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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 09:42
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
A laudable aim, in general, but in this specific instance I'm not sure it applies. Intel are committed to open source drivers, and the chips worked fine when a lot of people (myself included) bought them ...... .
I read about the Intel driver problems. Distrowatch has a great summary on it as well. But my limited read of the articles suggested the Intel problems applied to mostly new hardware, and not so much to exisiting older hardware. I do note that my wife's laptop has Intel graphics. SuSE-Pro-9.3, openSUSE-10.0, 10.1, 10.3, and now 11.1 all installed with no hiccup on graphics. None to speak of. Nadda. So when we go back to Intel graphics, clearly a broad brush statement is inaccurate, as there ARE Intel graphics that don't have theproblem. Again, thinking back to the time frame of SuSE-9.3, and I first researched for EASY compatibility before purchasing the laptop. That approach has not let me down. .... Given my experience, I can't help but think the Intel Graphics driver problem case is the exception, as opposed to the rule, being thrown up here as an example.


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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
The problem has been a major overhaul in driver architecture, which one would have required insider knowledge (or an unreasonable degree of technical knowledge) to have foreseen.
IMHO thats only partly true. I decided to purchase a new laptop in Nov-2008. I had been planning on this for over a year. When Nov-2008 rolled around, and I looked at the state of the graphic drivers and graphic hardware, I was horrified to read that nVidia which I like, had MAJOR problems with quality in their laptop graphics hardware. Now I dislike ATI. So I ignored ATI and I then looked at Intel graphics. Well, it was clear then they had MAJOR problems with their graphic drivers. So in the end I purchased a laptop with ATI graphics. Very very reluctantly I might add, but never the less buying ATI graphics at that time was the approach to get the EASIEST compatibility. I had no insider knowledge. None. Not one bit. But I avoided the Intel graphic problem there. So that Intel graphic problem IMHO only impacted those who had relatively new Intel hardware that worked for a while and then stopped during the driver overhaul. BUT the driver over haul did NOT impact all Intel graphic hardware as my old Fujitusu laptop adequately illustrates. So this IS unforutnate. Real unfortunate. But it NEEDS to be put in persective. And needs to be qualified.

If one reads such comments above without doing more research, one would think ALL INTEL graphic hardware stopped working, and EVERY user who was in the market was taken by surprise. Thats not the case. Its unfortuante. Definitely unfortunate. But there is more to the story.


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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
I tried sidux, and it installed grub to the MBR without even telling me it was doing it, let alone asking for permission.
The manner in which a distribution handles the MBR is something that has bitten me a couple of times in the past, as its an area of my knoweldge that I have been delinquent in updating. In my case, I put only one EXT3 partition on the USB and installed Sidux. optimizing a MBR location was the least of my worries, although if I were to install Sidux on a desktop it would be a different matter altogether (although frankly, as a big openSUSE fan, I like openSUSE too much to even consider putting Sidux on a desktop - only Fedora has the recent distinction of going on the desktop of one of my PCs, and that was only in a triboot for a limited time).

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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
Unfortunately, sidux have also now had a *major* falling out with the maintainer of the script (I forget its name - it's an acronym I think) which many users use to keep their system updated without breakage. Hopefully something can be resolved, because it sounds like it's causing a huge split in their community.
Sorry to read of the Sidux community split. From what I recall, Sidux was "borne" out of a Kannotix split (where Kannotix updates are very infrequent - almost on the verge of being dead), so to read Sidux have hiccups is a sad thing for a Sidux liveCD fan like myself.

Last edited by oldcpu; 14-Oct-2009 at 09:48.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 10:05
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
I read about the Intel driver problems. Distrowatch has a great summary on it as well.
For those who are curious, here is the link to the distrowatch article on the Intel driver problem: DistroWatch.com: Intel driver problem - status.

... of note is openSUSE-11.1 came with the 2.6.27 kernel. The major architecture change for the Intel graphic driver started with the 2.6.28 kernel. Hence in the most part openSUSE was NOT impacted (contrary to what one reads above in this thread). And the next openSUSE-11.2 will have the 2.6.31 kernel - and I guess we will see how well it will work.

Many distributions were impacted by this driver change. Reading the article suggests the impact on openSUSE was less than that on most distributions, and for those who read the above thread, they might walk away with a different impression. openSUSE definitely was NOT golden in addressing problems (with 11.1 and its Intel driver problems that were NOT related to the 2.6.28 kernel major hiccup), but I think it important this be put in perspective and not have an impression that openSUSE was worse than most. It was not. OpenSUSE was likely better off.
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Old 14-Oct-2009, 10:15
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

Thanks! The posts have been an interesting break while I am doing my homework. But more importantly The moderator is largely correct concerning global versus individual experience. My experience with the Intel driver issue, does not mean all had that issue.

If I could ask, can people please describe what they like and dislike about openSuse here, as part of the discussion?

As I had said, I definitely am interested in using openSuse again. I always liked its more polished appearance and performance. Too YAST is awesome! I primarily us linux as a research tool, and now as my primary OS. Open source tools mean I don't have to find a grant. But I do need it to just work most of the time, in order to focus on work not maintaining the system. Ubuntu allows me to do that.

But I would love to know what are some of the great points I might be missing since I haven't used it since 11.0, due to the hardware issue I had. And also does anyone know if the Intel issue has been fixed in 11.2?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 10:25
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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But I would love to know what are some of the great points I might be missing since I haven't used it since 11.0, due to the hardware issue I had. And also does anyone know if the Intel issue has been fixed in 11.2?
Software package management in 11.1 is superior/faster to that in 11.0 (that alone was worth the upgrade for some users). Also 11.1 has superior compatibility with tablets over 11.0 (although more work is needed there). IMHO KDE4 should be avoided in both 11.0 and 11.1. KDE3 works great in 11.0 and 11.1. There is no KDE3 in 11.2, but KDE4 should work very well in 11.2.

11.2 will have a more automated graphic hardware detection (no /etc/X11/xorg.conf file by default, although it can be added if needed). 11.2 will have EXT4 as its default file system instead of EXT3. 11.2 will have far superior automatic audio configuration for new hardware. 11.2 should also have superior wireless functionality over both 11.0 and 11.1. USB devices should work better under 11.2.

I have not been tracking the Intel graphics issue in sufficient detail to know its planned status in 11.2.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 10:32
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by StormCrow629 View Post
If I could ask, can people please describe what they like and dislike about openSuse here, as part of the discussion?
The things I like about openSUSE are:
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 10:39
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
Software package management in 11.1 is superior/faster to that in 11.0 (that alone was worth the upgrade for some users). Also 11.1 has superior compatibility with tablets over 11.0 (although more work is needed there). IMHO KDE4 should be avoided in both 11.0 and 11.1. KDE3 works great in 11.0 and 11.1. There is no KDE3 in 11.2, but KDE4 should work very well in 11.2.

11.2 will have a more automated graphic hardware detection (no /etc/X11/xorg.conf file by default, although it can be added if needed). 11.2 will have EXT4 as its default file system instead of EXT3. 11.2 will have far superior automatic audio configuration for new hardware. 11.2 should also have superior wireless functionality over both 11.0 and 11.1. USB devices should work better under 11.2.
I forgot to mention - 11.2 will be much easier for setting up a USB stick to do an software installation (from the USB stick) - something that was more difficult to setup in 11.1.
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Old 14-Oct-2009, 17:20
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCrow629 View Post
...
If I could ask, can people please describe what they like and dislike about openSuse here, as part of the discussion?
Further to oldcpu's suggestions, I would personally cite stability, ease of maintenance, and the great community on the forums (knowledgeable, pragmatic, helpful).

Except the mods. Who are all 'orrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCrow629 View Post
...
And also does anyone know if the Intel issue has been fixed in 11.2?
There really isn't *an* Intel issue, that's a huge oversimplification, so the question as posed cannot be answered. Some drivers, X-servers, kernels, Mesas (...etc.), in combination with certain hardware, have been troublesome. Unless you can find someone who's used your chipset with the beta, you're hard pressed to know... That's what Live CDs are for!

For me, on a 945 GME, it's looking quite good at the moment - as I said, I think we're through the worse of it. EXA being dropped has caused some software (not much - gnome-DO is an offender, for example, but I don't use it on SUSE) to run more slowly / jerkily, but I haven't found anything that outright won't run.

Conversely, UXA is *generally* faster, and the things that are having problems are improving.
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Old 14-Oct-2009, 19:49
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
...Given my experience, I can't help but think the Intel Graphics driver problem case is the exception, as opposed to the rule, being thrown up here as an example.
Let's hope so! My experience hasn't been too bad at all, but by the sound of things I've been comparatively lucky. Still, it isn't nice watching your graphics performance get worse - even if only in specific programs - with each update on relatively new hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
IMHO thats only partly true. I decided to purchase a new laptop in Nov-2008. I had been planning on this for over a year. When Nov-2008 rolled around, and I looked at the state of the graphic drivers and graphic hardware, I was horrified to read that nVidia which I like, had MAJOR problems with quality in their laptop graphics hardware. Now I dislike ATI. So I ignored ATI and I then looked at Intel graphics. Well, it was clear then they had MAJOR problems with their graphic drivers. So in the end I purchased a laptop with ATI graphics. Very very reluctantly I might add, but never the less buying ATI graphics at that time was the approach to get the EASIEST compatibility. I had no insider knowledge. None. Not one bit. But I avoided the Intel graphic problem there. So that Intel graphic problem IMHO only impacted those who had relatively new Intel hardware that worked for a while and then stopped during the driver overhaul. BUT the driver over haul did NOT impact all Intel graphic hardware as my old Fujitusu laptop adequately illustrates. So this IS unforutnate. Real unfortunate. But it NEEDS to be put in persective. And needs to be qualified.
Hmmm. Maybe you fall into the 'unreasonable degree of technical knowledge' bracket, but are just too modest to admit it?

My point is, I probably could've found out that there was upheaval ahead, but I simply wasn't looking in the right places. I didn't know *how* to look in the right places. I knew that Intel were supporting Linux, and I knew the cards they were releasing then had reasonable price/performance characteristics. But at that stage in my knowledge, even if I'd known where to look for such information, I'd likely have had no luck interpreting it.

But as you say, hopefully this'll turn out to be something of an aberration.

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Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
If one reads such comments above without doing more research, one would think ALL INTEL graphic hardware stopped working, and EVERY user who was in the market was taken by surprise. Thats not the case. Its unfortuante. Definitely unfortunate. But there is more to the story.
Indeed. I think a lot of it is born of understandable frustration - people tend to just get angry with something, and assume that it's broken, when often the reality is it just isn't working using a quite specific method in quite specific circumstances.

I'm hoping that with our new quest to get the wiki going mentioned in Rupert's "hello" thread we'll be able to make real use of the HCL and things. If I had to say the biggest weakness of this distro for me, it is at the moment patchy documentation, but as I've often said, these things have huge snowball effects. The arch wiki is kept up to date *specifically because* it's already good - we just have to get over that first hurdle, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
The manner in which a distribution handles the MBR is something that has bitten me a couple of times in the past, as its an area of my knoweldge that I have been delinquent in updating. In my case, I put only one EXT3 partition on the USB and installed Sidux. optimizing a MBR location was the least of my worries, although if I were to install Sidux on a desktop it would be a different matter altogether (although frankly, as a big openSUSE fan, I like openSUSE too much to even consider putting Sidux on a desktop - only Fedora has the recent distinction of going on the desktop of one of my PCs, and that was only in a triboot for a limited time).
I just don't get along with Fedora, and I can't work out why. I can tell it's a great distro, but it just doesn't grab me. Still, 800 more to choose from...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
Sorry to read of the Sidux community split. From what I recall, Sidux was "borne" out of a Kannotix split (where Kannotix updates are very infrequent - almost on the verge of being dead), so to read Sidux have hiccups is a sad thing for a Sidux liveCD fan like myself.
I don't want to overstate it - these things often look blown out of proportion to an outsider. I think sidux plan to carry on, but it does sound like they may lose many of their less technically minded users to mepis and antix and such distros. They were only on sidux in the first place, it seems, for smxi and the related scripts... And it doesn't sound from my very limited reading of things like there's much chance of reconciliation.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 14-Oct-2009, 21:51
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

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Originally Posted by oldcpu View Post
The things I like about openSUSE are:
That list, and the links, are actually really helpful. Thanks!

This is what initially brought me here:
  • nicely done KDE 4.3.2 in 11.2
  • 2.6.31 kernel in 11.2
  • my perception of overall quality
Here's why I'm still here:
  • Great installer
  • Helpful forums
  • Great support for my Thinkpad hardware
  • Overall quality exceeded my expectations
  • Firefox included in KDE out of the box
  • Many other pleasant surprises
  • I love the look/theme/colors
KDE 4.3.2 in 11.2 kicks Kubuntu's butt. But there is a lot to like about Ubuntu, and the Ubuntu forums are top notch in many ways.

If I ever leave, these might be the reasons:
  • Miguel de Icaza
  • Microsoft
  • Novell
  • software patents
  • getting spurned by the community for saying the above things (which I hope doesn't happen). Actually, I'm hoping people don't see this last part of my post.
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Old 15-Oct-2009, 13:56
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Default Re: Ubuntu reviews....

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCrow629 View Post
If I could ask, can people please describe what they like and dislike about openSuse here, as part of the discussion?
Further to what has already been noted above, I find the combination of KDE3.5 and KWin4 window manager fantastic. All 3D desktop goodies in a familiar, stable and feature-rich desktop. Unbeatable (IMHO, of course).

I'll eventually migrate to KDE4, but it's a pity 11.2 dropped KDE3.5 support.
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