Why not openSUSE...?

[GofBorg]

> Red hat also has good developers. And they are innovative. They
> constantly try to improve things with each release while openSUSE just
> picks up what's been done/tested. I respect Red Hat developers for that.

I can respect the developers, that doesn't mean I want bleeding edge stuff
in my distro. If I want bleeding edge I subscribe to factory.

[GofBorg]

> as for Gof's reply, it depends. Ground-breaking new stuff doesn't
> necessarily mean it won't work correctly or is not stable yet. When I
> say "ground-breaking" I mean it technologically and not adding stuff
> that just came out of alpha and saw the light as beta. Also, it could be
> done (the ground-breaking stuff) in openSUSE easily. Add it in the
> milestones and test it during the 8 months cycle, then release it as
> stable and fixed in the final GM version

I agree there are times when OpenSuSE is slightly off the curve.
KDE is a case in point where KDE development is not in synch with OpenSuSE
releases. This causes serious problems, but they have to make due with what
is available when they are creating a final shipping version, even when that
shipping version is inherently less stable than what is due to be imminently
released. Is that f'd up, you bet. At some point though you have to have a
system and stick with it. We've seen too many things tossed in at the last
minute that have resulted in disastrous 'out of the box' experiences.

[GofBorg]

I agree Ubuntu has some very nice usability tweaks.
Ironically, what I can't stand is apt and package management under .deb
platforms. I think it's because I started out using an rpm distro.
If I could get over that fact, and the fact that their KDE official support
is kind of a poor relation, I might consider using Ubuntu. As it stands SuSE
is the only distro that gives me what I want. Excellent KDE support and
stability.

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by CloudLion_ca

The deal with Microsloth (Microsoft) turned an immediate page in Novell's management history and injected a significant and vital financial return into Novell's balance sheet.

Because Novell failed on doing it itself. Sooner or later, there won't be more cash injections from the MS side when the contract ends,... that is assuming Novell doesn't extend it or MS doesn't want to even if Novell wants.

This is just more proof in my eyes that Novell just doesn't know how to market itself without help from its enemy... (migrate existing RH customers? Are you kidding me? Who's the loony who thought that up?). Without the injections, Novell's earnings would have been worse. Even the MS cash injections weren't enough to make Novell not slide in the latest quarterly earnings. I wouldn't say Novell is currently on life support but they are not that far away from it

The agreement also put off a potential legal conflagration which would have added a large chunk of liability to Novell's balance sheet at a dangerous time when Novell needed a shield and not a sword.

What legal conflagration? There's no need to make patent deals with MS, especially when MS has never shown on what or where Linux infringes on. All it did is spread around enough FUD so that less knowledgeable CEOs/CTOs started to believe after some time that they need such protection. This is psychological warfare and MS is very good at it. As RH said many times, they (and many others) don't see the point in making patent deals with MS. How many patents does MS infringe upon itself? I bet a dozen, especially when the big blue patent gorilla (IBM) stands up.

That "faggy" company saved SuSE from the fate Mandrake/Mandriva seems to be facing on a quarterly basis. That "faggy" company also has been a driving force in promoting a large number of initiatives in the Open Source world which have benefited everyone in the Linux world. The One exception might be Richard Stallman who has taken Novell off his May-Day card list. I assume Novell still sends Richard a Christmas card; which I'd bet will be returned unopened.

And so does RH, even more I'd say when it comes to important specific areas like the kernel. Yes, Novell saved SUSE but failed to capitalize on it and failed to market it decently. The only real thing that's growing is Novell's Linux business but that alone can't cover the losses from the other Novell operations. Even the Linux part of Novell is not growing enough compared to RH

[consused]

@(K)ofBorg
I agree about the excellent KDE support and base stability of openSUSE releases. Although I think kubuntu was brave to go KDE4 only so early. After bugfixes, their KDE 4.2 runs well enough and there kernel updates have been pretty sound. The new gui package manager is somewhat lightweight, but simple for new users.

[CloudLion_ca]

Originally Posted by microchip8

What legal conflagration? How many patents does MS infringe upon itself? I bet a dozen, especially when the big blue patent gorilla (IBM) stands up.

And so does RH... Even the Linux part of Novell is not growing enough compared to RH

"Conflagration" is... dramatic and it over blows the whole; "OH not Another pissing match with Microsoft over electronic pigs flatulating industrial designs into the wind."

We can't compare Red Hat to Novell; it's not fair to Novell. Novell has been in a dog fight with Microsoft for as long as I can remember. Long before Linux became a curse to Balmer & Gates Co. I believe the agreement between Novell and MS is more about a temporary cease-fire as Microsoft attempts to bribe it's way around more issues with anti-trust. If Red Hat had YaST and gave us KDE and pushed KDE; I wouldn't be typing here. Of course I have had issues with Red Hat's "elite support" and some of the promise which is paid for but never delivered. Sad thing is that Red Hat has a founding Canadian connection which is now distantly in it's past. I'm not a happy Canadian as a result. I'm not alone. Thanks for all the "RPMs".... but Red Hat and Fedora went hitchhiking all over the galaxy in directions some of will never go.

I can remember sitting on an IT panel that decided to go with a Microsoft solution because Novell sales representatives and technical support pissed us "all" off. Novell had a policy to force feed us NetWare and while never managing to provide adequate technical assistance to back up the sales bluster. Way Way back when NT 3.51/4.0 actually seemed like a reasonable alternative to Novell "NetMare"!

I certainly hope OpenSuSE/SuSE never reminds me of fun I use to have with Novell "NetMare". So far I can't complain about Novell's Linux technical support, the support of the security desk, or any one I've spoken with at Novell. Things have improved from the late 80s and early 90s.

The other thing to consider; IBM is a wild card and it might as quickly sign off on a deal with Microsoft as it would Champion a consortium to protect Linux and UNIX. Cutting deals with IBM is like act of cutting a deal with a Demon to face the threat of a Devil. IBM is still the Incredible Big Monstrosity.

IT is wonderful... all the primary corporations, figure heads, and govermental bodies, are about as trust worthy as working with wild dogs in a meat market.

The daily experience:

Sit Ubooboo... Sit!!!!

Bad Uboooboo!!! Bad Ubooobooo!!!

"Bad Ubootoo Bad boy!", "You should not have gobbled up Novell." "Bad Ubooboo!"
"Can someone please clean up after their dog?" here comes Microsoft to the rescue!

Oh no... "Poor Ubootoo; good boy!"

"BAD IBM... bad Dog!","Someone please clean up this ... stuff ... half digested Novell stinks!"

"That is a powerful stench!" "Bad IBM.. Bad IBM".

"Red Hat stop eating that... Bad Red Hat ... Bad Red Hat!"

Then Red Hat can get Madonna to sing: "Don't it make your Red Fedoras Green".

[dragonbite]

That's a really.. um.. interesting visual. I'm going to have that stuck in my head all day (thanks a lot )

[CloudLion_ca]

Originally Posted by dragonbite

That's a really.. um.. interesting visual. I'm going to have that stuck in my head all day (thanks a lot )

It's all in a days work.

The things we do to try to encourage Novell to save itself and SuSE along the way. I'll have to send an application to Novell to see if I can get a job in the mail room.

[CloudLion_ca]

Originally Posted by CloudLion_ca

It's all in a days work.

The things we do to try to encourage Novell to save itself and SuSE along the way. I'll have to send an application to Novell to see if I can get a job in the mail room.

Oh wait... I think the mail room was sub-contracted out to UPS? Or did that get axed also?

Oh well...

[microchip8]

Originally Posted by CloudLion_ca

We can't compare Red Hat to Novell; it's not fair to Novell

Why not? Sure, they are not exactly in the same business area but both are pushers of open source in enterprises and servers. No one ever thinks of "being fair" when the killing starts.

Novell has been in a dog fight with Microsoft for as long as I can remember. Long before Linux became a curse to Balmer & Gates Co. I believe the agreement between Novell and MS is more about a temporary cease-fire as Microsoft attempts to bribe it's way around more issues with anti-trust.

Your belief is wrong. Novell made the deal because a) it needed a quick $$$ fix badly at that time, b) it thought that by having "protection" from MS, it will gain a large amount of customers due to this and c) the only way to get the "protection" and quick fix was to agree to a patent deal with MS

If Red Hat had YaST and gave us KDE and pushed KDE; I wouldn't be typing here. Of course I have had issues with Red Hat's "elite support" and some of the promise which is paid for but never delivered. Sad thing is that Red Hat has a founding Canadian connection which is now distantly in it's past. I'm not a happy Canadian as a result. I'm not alone. Thanks for all the "RPMs".... but Red Hat and Fedora went hitchhiking all over the galaxy in directions some of will never go.

They couldn't due to past incompatible QT licenses with the open sauce spirit. Only now QT is available under GPL/LGPL but all the time it wasn't, it opened the way for CRAPNOME to became *sort of* de-facto desktop for Linux. SuSE before Novell was a closed company and it didn't care much that QT at that time wasn't license-compatible with the open sauce spirit. Also, being a German company and KDE being German too, it made sense for them to make it their premier DE environment.

I certainly hope OpenSuSE/SuSE never reminds me of fun I use to have with Novell "NetMare". So far I can't complain about Novell's Linux technical support, the support of the security desk, or any one I've spoken with at Novell. Things have improved from the late 80s and early 90s.

NetWare was a very decent product and combined with Novell's NDS, Novell in the past had a following of an army. There were Brainshare events where tens of thousands people came to attend and admire Novell's technical expertise. Sadly, when MS throw Win95 at the public with a TCP/IP stack added to it that was "good enough" for most tasks, as Win gained more & more market share, people realized that the TCP/IP in Win was enough and there was no more/enough need to pay for expensive NetWare stuff. Then MS came with AD and slowly Novell went downhill from there...

The other thing to consider; IBM is a wild card and it might as quickly sign off on a deal with Microsoft as it would Champion a consortium to protect Linux and UNIX. Cutting deals with IBM is like act of cutting a deal with a Demon to face the threat of a Devil. IBM is still the Incredible Big Monstrosity.

IBM s-h-i-t-s more patents than MS or anyone else can dream up. IBM makes billions and billions out of Linux and Linux services/support, is a very strong and active Linux developer (has ported many legacy UNIX apps over to Linux, including file systems like JFS), is a founding member of the OIN and contributes patents regularly, so even if IBM is to make a deal with MS, it will be in the interest of Linux. That's not really what Novell did. It mainly did the deal because it was stuck and starving so it needed a quick push. Sadly again it knocked on the wrong door and as you can see for yourself, even MS couldn't help it enough to sell its SLES/SLED to a large enough public so that it can balance the losses from the other operations.

IT is wonderful... all the primary corporations, figure heads, and govermental bodies, are about as trust worthy as working with wild dogs in a meat market.

The daily experience:

Sit Ubooboo... Sit!!!!

Bad Uboooboo!!! Bad Ubooobooo!!!

"Bad Ubootoo Bad boy!", "You should not have gobbled up Novell." "Bad Ubooboo!"
"Can someone please clean up after their dog?" here comes Microsoft to the rescue!

Oh no... "Poor Ubootoo; good boy!"

"BAD IBM... bad Dog!","Someone please clean up this ... stuff ... half digested Novell stinks!"

"That is a powerful stench!" "Bad IBM.. Bad IBM".

"Red Hat stop eating that... Bad Red Hat ... Bad Red Hat!"

Then Red Hat can get Madonna to sing: "Don't it make your Red Fedoras Green".