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Thread: Possible change in kernel philosophy

  1. #1
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    Default Possible change in kernel philosophy

    Jiri Slaby posted the following on the openSUSE kernel mailing list:

    ===============================================================
    Hello,

    at SUSE, we are currently discussing the future of merging releases
    from -stable kernel tree[1] into SLE. There is a fear of regressions
    caused in the enterprise distribution as well as a fear of high patch
    count which in most cases cannot be reviewed properly with our power.

    I would like to know your opinion about merging -stable kernels into
    *openSUSE*.

    This means:
    * do you prefer to stay with the latest stable kernel released at the
    time an opensuse distro becomes available? (And then only single fixes
    for reported bugs are merged.) Or should be -stable releases
    incorporated as soon as they are out (or later).
    * Regarding the parentheses, would you prefer some time to pass before
    a -stable kernel is committed to a particular openSUSE kernel?
    * Did you hit some regression caused by stable releases (this is
    rather information for me personally). If so, how often?

    Note that Kernel:stable (and Tumbleweed) will be *unaffected* by the
    result of this thread. It will still follow the latest stable upstream
    release as soon as possible.

    Opinions welcome.

    [1] The releases numbered by the third numbers after major release
    numbers, e.g. 3.2.1 or 3.2.2.

    thanks,
    - --
    js
    suse labs

    ================================================================

    If you have any thoughts on this issue, I will pass a summary back to Jiri.

    Larry

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    I'm happy to see it, so long as the old kernels remain in the repos as they do now
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    Dear Larry, dear other members of the (open)SUSE kernel-team/kernel list,

    1) Instead (or in addition to)
    the "(or later)"/'stable-kernel after a period of time' variation
    I would prefer if such new openSUSE kernel politics would be be combined
    with a kernel fallback mode (in default* not only as a non-default
    option). Something like keeping every time two kernel versions (at least
    for a given time like a month) and so also an easy possibility for
    testing the new kernel with many testes without much fuss for them.

    3) I think that many users do use old hardware with openSUSE (or at
    least like me one old pc/laptop [in my case with intel i915 graphic] and
    one new device). For them may be the risk that their hardware would not
    be supported suddenly (in my amateurish view).

    4) For users with graphic from AMD or NVIDIA it may become even more
    problematic to get their system working with 3D support (which is for
    example needed for GNOME3 without fallback mode.

    5) I guess there may be too less distinction from the Tumbleweed version
    - the now 'normal' versions may become something like Tumbleweed without
    old desktop environment (GNOME, KDE, ...) - Tumbleweed not reloaded (in
    contrast to nowadays GNOME reloaded or KDE reloaded).

    6) If this is change is wanted (especially by SUSE and for the
    professional versions) - maybe the whole concept of openSUSE versions,
    lifetime and cooperation with the payed/professional SUSE versions
    should be 're-thought' also?
    Something like:

    a) Factory (only for testing based on kernel new and the according
    desktop environment)

    b) Tumbleweed (for the very curious user and as a second installation
    for testing for the masses)

    c) Main (Tumbleweed a bit more conservative - like all changes 2 months
    after Tumbleweed)
    - named after the kernel version or like now with a new name with the
    n.1, n.2, n.3 schema but changes synchrony to the change of the kernel
    version (n may depend also on the d) versions )-

    [c') The _SUSE versions [at least SLED for the Desktop] based on
    openSUSE Main]

    d) Conservative (periodical forked from Main based on long term support
    kernels) - for example based on every second long term kernel or ca.
    every/every second/fourth/sixth/.. year 'new' with 2 months of
    overlapping time) maybe named n.O like openSUSE 13.0, 14.O ... or
    openSUSE <kernel-number> Conservative

    [? d') The (other) professional SUSE versions (for Server - SLES or for
    conservative Servers SLECS/SLESC) based on openSUSE Conservative for
    example openSUSE Conservative +2 mounths ?]

    Just my bold amateurish thinking/brainstorming (I am only a layer...)

    Regards
    Martin (Seidler)


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    Red face AW: Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    P. S. Sorry for my terminological confusion:
    Quote Originally Posted by pistazienfresser View Post
    [...]a) Factory (only for testing based on kernel new and the according desktop environment)[...]
    I meant the versions that are going to become the next stable kernels (release candidates) - the kernel.org term for those seems to be mainline n version or just "mainline".

  5. #5
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    Default AW: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by lwfinger View Post
    Jiri Slaby posted the following on the openSUSE kernel mailing list:
    [...]
    at SUSE, we are currently discussing the future of merging releases
    from -stable kernel tree[1] into SLE.
    [...]
    [1] The releases numbered by the third numbers after major release
    numbers, e.g. 3.2.1 or 3.2.2.
    [...]
    Reading [opensuse-kernel] -stable kernel releases into openSUSE? and following I think I probably misunderstood that part:
    Meant is if a openSUSE release starts for example by 3.2.1, it would be updated to 3.2.2 if this version would be available (or a time after that...), right?

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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    On 2012-02-01 19:54, pistazienfresser wrote:

    I don't like the idea.

    > 3) I think that many users do use old hardware with openSUSE (or at
    > least like me one old pc/laptop [in my case with intel i915 graphic] and
    > one new device). For them may be the risk that their hardware would not
    > be supported suddenly (in my amateurish view).


    True.

    > 4) For users with graphic from AMD or NVIDIA it may become even more
    > problematic to get their system working with 3D support (which is for
    > example needed for GNOME3 without fallback mode.


    That is also a problem. Proprietary drivers will not follow that fast, I'm
    afraid.

    I prefer the released openSUSE version to remain with the same kernel as
    released at first, with the necessary updates as is currently done.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by robin_listas View Post
    On 2012-02-01 19:54, pistazienfresser wrote:

    I don't like the idea.

    > 3) I think that many users do use old hardware with openSUSE (or at
    > least like me one old pc/laptop [in my case with intel i915 graphic] and
    > one new device). For them may be the risk that their hardware would not
    > be supported suddenly (in my amateurish view).


    True.

    > 4) For users with graphic from AMD or NVIDIA it may become even more
    > problematic to get their system working with 3D support (which is for
    > example needed for GNOME3 without fallback mode.


    That is also a problem. Proprietary drivers will not follow that fast, I'm
    afraid.

    I prefer the released openSUSE version to remain with the same kernel as
    released at first, with the necessary updates as is currently done.

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
    Yes
    It would require that those drivers were ready and available before updates were passed through
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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 05:16:02 +0000, caf4926 wrote:

    > Yes It would require that those drivers were ready and available before
    > updates were passed through


    That would be my biggest concern with the change as well.

    On the other hand, it would make incorporating changes like the ones
    needed for my touchpad easier. (It's fixed in the 3.2 kernel, but
    backporting it to 3.1 apparently isn't a trivial thing). So the question
    then becomes one of making it easier for users of more commonly-used
    hardware that uses closed drivers, or making it easier for users of less
    commonly-used hardware where the vendors have made it easier to include
    OSS drivers...

    Not an easy question to answer.

    Jim

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    openSUSE Forums Administrator
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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    I suppose really, the option to use the newer kernel is already there. We just have to add the repo or compile. For advanced users, this is not a big issue.

    Question is: Will it making the latest stable available in OS by default cause problems?
    Answer: Probably, yes.

    Would I like to see it? Yes.
    But I don't want something implemented unless it done well.
    Though I suspect our concerns about proprietary drivers might go unheard.
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    Default Re: Possible change in kernel philosophy

    On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 05:56:02 +0000, caf4926 wrote:

    > Would I like to see it? Yes.


    Agreed.

    > But I don't want something implemented unless it done well.


    Also agreed.

    > Though I suspect our concerns about proprietary drivers might go
    > unheard.


    I don't know that 'unheard' would be accurate; Larry did say he'd
    summarize the thoughts and pass them back. There is an important
    distinction between not hearing the concerns and weighing the concerns
    and deciding that there are other overriding concerns that push a
    decision in a direction that we may not agree with.

    I appreciate Larry taking those concerns back to those making the
    decision, regardless of the outcome.

    Jim
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