community decision makers take responsibility for their decisions

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1

[complaints should have a proposed solution, this one has five]

we know the openSUSE developers and largest majority of members of the
Community do not come to these fora…which is fine (i guess) until
decisions are made which adversely impacts the ability of the
experienced users here to adequately help the less experienced here…

for example: the release of GNOME3 on openSUSE has generated lots of
questions/problems for the first adopters and curious who don’t always
have a sufficient depth of knowledge to be out there on the bleeding edge…

another example: Tumbleweed rolled out with practically zero how-to
information, and no apparent preplanned means to support potential users…

Potential solutions for discussion/implementation:

  1. since the Community wants to grow through being more visible across
    the Linux spectrum and providing innovative progress like the two
    examples above, then more of those 469 members should be willing to help
    service the neophytes they attract to these fora…

  2. or, they ought to spend a LOT more time writing caveats and good
    advice to not get out on a limb with (say GNOME3 or Tumbleweed) unless
    you don’t care if you fall…this is especially important for the
    release of milestones and release candidates, their download pages is
    typically almost totally devoid of any warnings to the uninitiated…

  3. or, maybe we ought to get a programmer or two (should be a few
    around) to build a filter so that all forum post containing (for
    example) GNOME3 be sent directly to opensuse@opensuse.org

  4. or, delay release until there is sufficient time to wring out a lot
    more of the developer induced problems…

  5. or, coordinate with the forum staff so user support plans can be made
    and in place when needed (like, the recently instituted Tumbleweed forum
    which was weeks late)

–
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP via openSUSE 11.3 + KDE4.5.5 + Thunderbird3.1.8]
Q: Why do you upgrade?
A: Because the Gecko is always greener on the other side!
So said k428 in http://is.gd/Pwc3xq

2

On 2011-04-13 17:14, DenverD wrote:
> [complaints should have a proposed solution, this one has five]
>
> we know the openSUSE developers and largest majority of members of the
> Community do not come to these fora…which is fine (i guess) until
> decisions are made which adversely impacts the ability of the experienced
> users here to adequately help the less experienced here…

I do not know about “members”. I am one and I’m here, but I have no idea
how many of them come to the fora - the forum uses the login name instead
of the given name, so there is no way to know.

> for example: the release of GNOME3 on openSUSE has generated lots of
> questions/problems for the first adopters and curious who don’t always have
> a sufficient depth of knowledge to be out there on the bleeding edge…

I’m skipping all those posts on purpose. I haven’t 11.4 installed as main
system and I don’t intend to test G3 - yet, at least. As i know nothing of
G3, I skip those posts, but I assume that maney have problems, don’t they?

> another example: Tumbleweed rolled out with practically zero how-to
> information, and no apparent preplanned means to support potential users…

The potential users fail to read the little information available. They
just think it is another repo.

> Potential solutions for discussion/implementation:
>
> 1. since the Community wants to grow through being more visible across the
> Linux spectrum and providing innovative progress like the two examples
> above, then more of those 469 members should be willing to help service the
> neophytes they attract to these fora…

It is quite probable that many of those members aren’t involved in those
decisions. I certainly am not. You have to target packagers and devs, and
they will be more difficult to attract than plain members.

> 2. or, they ought to spend a LOT more time writing caveats and good advice
> to not get out on a limb with (say GNOME3 or Tumbleweed) unless you don’t
> care if you fall…this is especially important for the release of
> milestones and release candidates, their download pages is typically almost
> totally devoid of any warnings to the uninitiated…

Don’t go that road if you are not prepared. This should be clear to all
those installing factory or tumbleweed. Here be dragons!

> 3. or, maybe we ought to get a programmer or two (should be a few around)
> to build a filter so that all forum post containing (for example) GNOME3 be
> sent directly to opensuse@opensuse.org

Argh! No, please, no.

But a post containing the subject line and a link to both forum and nntp
interfaces, perhaps.

A human could have a look around the problems with gnome 3, and post one
post to the gnome list and project list, describing briefly each problem,
and asking for people in the know to solve those problems and come down
here. It is a shame that they are wasting the huge test base here.

The one to the project list should be brief in the technical part, but
clear in asking for their help.

> 4. or, delay release until there is sufficient time to wring out a lot more
> of the developer induced problems…

Ha! No chance.

They are probably releasing code so that people try it out and comment.

> 5. or, coordinate with the forum staff so user support plans can be made
> and in place when needed (like, the recently instituted Tumbleweed forum
> which was weeks late)

No, actually I think the forum reacted fast to a need that was seen here.
There is no mail list, they did not react at all.

Is there a comment in the tumbleweed wiki page about the forum?

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

3

On 04/14/2011 02:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> As i know nothing of G3, I skip those posts

me too…

>
> The potential users fail to read the little information available. They
> just think it [Tumbleweed] is another repo.

yep…they read about it (say, in a blog or over in a Ubuntu forum) and
“just go for it”…which is ok except they are never really informed
that it is not just another repo…

i mean, you would think that it would be possible to insert a warning,
caution or otherwise informative note somewhere in the process and
require the user to click “Ok, i understand and accept this change
which may or may not lead to a smile.”

i mean, i have click “Accept” to get an Adobe download…at least they
have the guts to tell me they don’t really know all the bad things that
might happen if i install their half-baked packages…

>> 3. or, maybe we ought to get a programmer or two (should be a few around)
>> to build a filter so that all forum post containing (for example) GNOME3 be
>> sent directly to opensuse@opensuse.org
>
>
> … It is a shame that they are wasting the huge [Gnome3] test base here.

and, not only are they wasting it, they are introducing some folks to
openSUSE for the first time in a way which is bound to result in a very
poor “user experience”

>> 4. or, delay release until there is sufficient time to wring out a lot more
>> of the developer induced problems…
>
> They are probably releasing code so that people try it out and comment.

looks that way to me…but, i think the promoters should be more
forthcoming with the true nature of the code (but, sigh! the Gnome folks
are just following in the steps laid out by the KDE 4.0.x team)

>
> Is there a comment in the tumbleweed wiki page about the forum?
>

you are kidding right?

neither the word ‘help’ nor ‘forum’ exists on that page–it says:
“…share experience and report issues to the openSUSE Factory mailing
list.”

to me it sounds like devs talking among themselves…but, the problem is
those without a full understanding flock to “just go for it”…

–
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP via openSUSE 11.3 + KDE4.5.5 + Thunderbird3.1.8]
Q: Why do you upgrade?
A: Because the Gecko is always greener on the other side!
So said k428 in http://is.gd/Pwc3xq

4

On 2011-04-14 08:40, DenverD wrote:
> On 04/14/2011 02:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> As i know nothing of G3, I skip those posts
>
> me too…

I’m a gnome user, but I’m conservative. I don’t dash out and experiment
every new thing.

> i mean, you would think that it would be possible to insert a warning,
> caution or otherwise informative note somewhere in the process and
> require the user to click “Ok, i understand and accept this change which
> may or may not lead to a smile.”

That’s a good idea. You could propose it in the project mail list.

>>> 4. or, delay release until there is sufficient time to wring out a lot more
>>> of the developer induced problems…
>>
>> They are probably releasing code so that people try it out and comment.
>
> looks that way to me…but, i think the promoters should be more
> forthcoming with the true nature of the code (but, sigh! the Gnome folks
> are just following in the steps laid out by the KDE 4.0.x team)

I hope not! KDE 4 was a disaster. At least the G3 people have said that G2
apps will not break on G3, so there is no need to port applications, except
if they want to use the new features. Plus, G2 will still be maintained,
contrary to KDE3.

So, they have learned from that experience.

>> Is there a comment in the tumbleweed wiki page about the forum?
>>
>
> you are kidding right?
>
> neither the word ‘help’ nor ‘forum’ exists on that page–it says: “…share
> experience and report issues to the openSUSE Factory mailing list.”

Then add it >:-P

Seriously, though, it can be added, mentioning that it is very active
although devs are not there (here). The forums should be mentioned on more
places.

(as long as they have nntp, that is :wink: )

> to me it sounds like devs talking among themselves…but, the problem is
> those without a full understanding flock to “just go for it”…

Another subject to bring up in the project mail list :wink:

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

5

On 2011-04-13 17:14, DenverD wrote:
>
> for example: the release of GNOME3 on openSUSE has generated lots of
> questions/problems for the first adopters and curious who don’t always have
> a sufficient depth of knowledge to be out there on the bleeding edge…

Answer: Do not install G3 unless you can repair it yourself. The devs do
not want you to install it.

I asked. Got a reply (Dominique):

> we certainly do not want more users
> asking why it does not work… the answer is simple: we did not publish
> availability of the gnome3 repo yet…

…

> Make a sticky post in the forum, tell people not to use it unless they
> are savy enough to fix it for themselves (it does work when you do ‘the
> right thing™’

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

6

On 04/14/2011 11:50 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2011-04-14 08:40, DenverD wrote:
>>> Is there a comment in the tumbleweed wiki page about the forum?
>>
>> neither the word ‘help’ nor ‘forum’ exists on that page–it says: “…share
>> experience and report issues to the openSUSE Factory mailing list.”
>
> Then add it>:-P

since i can’t help with the questions, i won’t do anything to direct
more eager (but ill equipped) early adopters into the Tumbleweed forum…

i’ll let the answer givers there do that, when they are ready…

–
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP via openSUSE 11.3 + KDE4.5.5 + Thunderbird3.1.8]
Q: Why do you upgrade?
A: Because the Gecko is always greener on the other side!
So said k428 in http://is.gd/Pwc3xq

7

As someone who is considering to switch from Fedora to openSUSE because of the Tumbleweed (rolling release) repo, I fully support what DenverD say here. And it actually makes me a bit hesitant to finalise the switch to be honest.

I’m confident that if something will go sour, I should be able to fix it, but it will also most likely leave me with a poor experience.

Imagine I were a new user to Linux. Been using Windows all my life and openSUSE will be the first distro I try. I install GNOME 3 and enable Tumbleweed, because I didn’t read the forum or see any warnings. Everything goes pearshaped from there. After that I will probably never use openSUSE again, let alone Linux.

From experience I’ve actually worked for companies that has this type of communication issue DenverD is talking about. The gap between group A and group B is so big that it has a horrible effect on the “finished” product. Group A tries to tell group B what needs to be done, but instead group B tells group A to make the customers stop complaining. The most common scenario is that the company loses customers and loyal employees.

I am glad I’ve been too busy with writing essays, because then I hadn’t seen all the issues with GNOME 3. Tumbleweed seems fine as long as you stick to standard repos, but after reading this thread I’m wondering if I should wait a bit more.

With that said, I think the Tumbleweed project is a very good idea. Not because it can give users the bleeding edge software, but it makes it possible to install a system as you want it, and just keep it updated without having to reinstall every 8th month if you want the latest features you’ve been waiting for.

That’s my two cents.

8

Um, what? I provided wiki pages, email notifications, and announcements.

What else could I have done, or can I do now to help out with this?

And we have support, through our normal channels, why do you say we do not?

confused,

greg k-h

9

Tumbleweed is there so that you can just stick with the standard repos. If you enable other ones, you are on your own, just like
before. Tumbleweed is so that you don’t have the previous problems of random repos causing problems with each other.

And if you don’t want to use it, that’s fine, you don’t have to.

thanks,

greg k-h

10

On 04/14/2011 07:06 PM, gregkh wrote:
>
> DenverD;2323064 Wrote:
>> [complaints should have a proposed solution, this one has five]
>>
>> another example: Tumbleweed rolled out with practically zero how-to
>> information, and no apparent preplanned means to support potential
>> users…
>>
>
> Um, what? I provided wiki pages, email notifications, and
> announcements.

hi Greg, thanks for your questions…

i find only two wiki pages…and those didn’t cover answers to all of
the questions that have been asked (here in the forums)…

i have (and maybe some others also) suggested those questioners address
Factory mail…unfortunately, many (most?) of the users we get here
(you know) don’t know a mail list from a make install…and . . .

the email notifications you made [who did those go to, i didn’t get
any], did they include (for example) exactly how-to initially move from
11.4 and then exactly which repos should remain enabled, or not…and
under what circumstances other repos could be (safely) added…we had
lots of questions on that and…(see below)

perhaps your announcements covered all of those details…if so, maybe
it would be good if they (and emails) were linked from the two wiki
pages i find (boy am i gonna be embarrassed if there are many more wiki
pages and all of the questions raised were fully answered…if there is
more documentation, i ask that you link them from
http://en.opensuse.org/Tumbleweed

> What else could I have done, or can I do now to help out with this?

thanks for asking! personally, i would like to have seen larger font
(flashing red and underlined in dripping blood:-) referencing the
reality that once you go to Tumbleweed you are no longer running 11.4,
and you are ‘out there’ in a new (and maybe wonderful) world…but, its
pretty new and there will be some rough spots moving forward…

now i knew that, but my problem is that there are tons of folks who do
not have years in the game and are just hot to trot to The Latest and
Greatest…full speed ahead…and that is when the bits hit the
fan…they get in trouble, and soak up a lot of helper
time…lots…especially when we have no succinct manual, how-to,
why-to, when-to guidance to help us provide answers…

here, let me give you an example: a focused and limited google of the
forums, using only two words ‘tumbleweed’ and ‘problem’ yields 2,320
hits: http://tinyurl.com/3jheoy4

http://tinyurl.com/3h3n7aj adds words glitch, repo, confused and give
4160 hits…

maybe, just maybe when a Tumbleweed repo is enabled there should be a
warning or note or something that explains whats up, what is the
downside of being an early adopter…maybe like Adobe does, you can’t
get any of there bugs without full disclosure that you are out on a limb!

> And we have support, through our normal channels, why do you say we do
> not?

as mentioned, i understand mail list and IRC, many here do not…and, i
think Factory really doesn’t wanna deal with 4000+ questions…
especially when some of those might also ask: “By the way, what is a
partition and do i need any special ones for Thumblewead?”

–
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP via openSUSE 11.3 + KDE4.5.5 + Thunderbird3.1.8]
Q: Why do you upgrade?
A: Because the Gecko is always greener on the other side!
So said k428 in http://is.gd/Pwc3xq

11

Well, it is a wiki, it can be edited and expanded beyond what it contains
if there are areas that are unclear. As the original poster of the page,
my view is a bit different so any updates others can provide this are most welcome.

As for your other points about support issues, yes, I understand, which
is why I’ve now joined the forums to help out here.

And the addition of a Tumbleweed-specific forum topic, with a very good initial
descriptive post, should help out in the future with most of these support issues.

Hopefully we will do better now, we are all still learning :slight_smile:

And as always, any specific ideas of how I can do better are always appreciated.

thanks,

greg k-h

12

On 04/14/2011 10:06 PM, gregkh wrote:
>
> it is a wiki, it can be edited and expanded beyond what it
> contains if there are areas that are unclear.

oh i agree…but, you wouldn’t want me to just make up stuff (as recall
some where guessing what mix of repos would fine—i have not gone back
since the revelation, to see how close the guesses were)…

> my view is a bit different so any updates others can provide this are
> most welcome.

perhaps someone using T, and having learned will begin adding facts to
the wiki…

> which is why I’ve now joined the forums to help out here.

THANKS

>
> we are all still learning :slight_smile:
>

not me, i know everything! ask anyone!! :wink:

–
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP via openSUSE 11.3 + KDE4.5.5 + Thunderbird3.1.8]
Q: Why do you upgrade?
A: Because the Gecko is always greener on the other side!
So said k428 in http://is.gd/Pwc3xq