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Thread: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

  1. #1

    Default what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    The fora have all been quiet for a while, when suddenly everyone started
    posting at 19:23 CET today - or that's what it looked like. Sounds more
    like a copy operation that got held up - sh** happens, but it would
    have been nice if the postings had retained theie original timestamps.



    --
    Per Jessen, Zürich (23.9°C)
    http://en.opensuse.org/Userjessen

  2. #2
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    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:25:27 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:

    > The fora have all been quiet for a while, when suddenly everyone started
    > posting at 19:23 CET today - or that's what it looked like. Sounds more
    > like a copy operation that got held up - sh** happens, but it would have
    > been nice if the postings had retained theie original timestamps.


    The gateway hung up - and then the issue was found and addressed.
    Message timestamps are assigned by the NNTP server, so when they come
    through the gateway, that's when they're timestamped - not a lot we can
    do about that without completely redoing the setup - and we have it
    configured so the server timestamps so we're not dependent on each client
    having their time set correctly (which would lead to a bigger mess).

    Jim



    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

  3. #3

    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    Jim Henderson wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:25:27 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:
    >
    >> The fora have all been quiet for a while, when suddenly everyone
    >> started posting at 19:23 CET today - or that's what it looked like.
    >> Sounds more like a copy operation that got held up - sh** happens,
    >> but it would have been nice if the postings had retained theie
    >> original timestamps.

    >
    > The gateway hung up - and then the issue was found and addressed.


    I had pretty much guessed that :-)

    > Message timestamps are assigned by the NNTP server, so when they come
    > through the gateway, that's when they're timestamped - not a lot we
    > can do about that without completely redoing the setup - and we have
    > it configured so the server timestamps so we're not dependent on each
    > client having their time set correctly (which would lead to a bigger
    > mess).


    Hmm, my news-server uses the Date: field in the email, that works very
    well. A simple solution would be to use the forum posting timestamp
    instead.



    --
    Per Jessen, Zürich (20.5°C)
    http://en.opensuse.org/Userjessen

  4. #4
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On 2010-07-21 22:31 GMT Jim Henderson wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:25:27 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:
    >
    > > The fora have all been quiet for a while, when suddenly everyone
    > > started posting at 19:23 CET today - or that's what it looked like.
    > > Sounds more like a copy operation that got held up - sh** happens,
    > > but it would have been nice if the postings had retained theie
    > > original timestamps.

    >
    > The gateway hung up - and then the issue was found and addressed.
    > Message timestamps are assigned by the NNTP server, so when they come
    > through the gateway, that's when they're timestamped - not a lot we
    > can do about that without completely redoing the setup - and we have
    > it configured so the server timestamps so we're not dependent on each
    > client having their time set correctly (which would lead to a bigger
    > mess).


    Dunno about that, it is how mail works. I like to see at what time a
    post was sent, and on what timezone. Here, all posts I see say their
    timezone is "GMT", which makes no sense at all.

    Looking at the headers of your post, I see three dates:

    Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:31:14 GMT
    X-Trace: kozak.provo.novell.com 1279751474 68.165.29.223 (Wed, 21 Jul
    2010 16:31:14 MDT)
    NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:31:14 MDT

    I assume the NNTP-Posting-Date is from the nntp server, and "Date"
    should be the local time of the poster - which probably is not, it is
    also done by the server.

    And my guess is that most machines nowdays have correct time/date.


    For example, this post I'm writing is done at 12:41 local, or 10:41
    UTC, but it will be several hours till is sent (I'm offline).

    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))


  5. #5
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    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:34:26 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:

    > Jim Henderson wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:25:27 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:
    >>
    >>> The fora have all been quiet for a while, when suddenly everyone
    >>> started posting at 19:23 CET today - or that's what it looked like.
    >>> Sounds more like a copy operation that got held up - sh** happens, but
    >>> it would have been nice if the postings had retained theie original
    >>> timestamps.

    >>
    >> The gateway hung up - and then the issue was found and addressed.

    >
    > I had pretty much guessed that :-)
    >
    >> Message timestamps are assigned by the NNTP server, so when they come
    >> through the gateway, that's when they're timestamped - not a lot we can
    >> do about that without completely redoing the setup - and we have it
    >> configured so the server timestamps so we're not dependent on each
    >> client having their time set correctly (which would lead to a bigger
    >> mess).

    >
    > Hmm, my news-server uses the Date: field in the email, that works very
    > well. A simple solution would be to use the forum posting timestamp
    > instead.


    That would require changes to both the gateway software and the
    configuration on the NNTP server. The problem with turning off the
    server's timestamping of messages is if I set my time to sometime in 2063
    and post, that's what the messages will be timestamped with, and that
    will cause other problems.

    IOW, it's not the web side that's the problem, it's managing (or the lack
    of ability to manage) the time settings for anyone using NNTP and the
    side effects of just accepting the poster's timestamp.

    Jim



    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

  6. #6
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    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:04:02 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

    > Dunno about that, it is how mail works. I like to see at what time a
    > post was sent, and on what timezone. Here, all posts I see say their
    > timezone is "GMT", which makes no sense at all.


    Sure it does - UTC (GMT) is a common point of reference. If I post a
    message now (10:10 AM MDT), that is 16:10 GMT.

    > Looking at the headers of your post, I see three dates:
    >
    > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:31:14 GMT
    > X-Trace: kozak.provo.novell.com 1279751474 68.165.29.223 (Wed, 21 Jul
    > 2010 16:31:14 MDT)
    > NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:31:14 MDT
    >
    > I assume the NNTP-Posting-Date is from the nntp server, and "Date"
    > should be the local time of the poster - which probably is not, it is
    > also done by the server.


    Correct.

    > And my guess is that most machines nowdays have correct time/date.


    You'd be surprised at how many people have incorrect time on their
    system. I was working with someone the other day whose clock was several
    hours off for their local time (but not UTC either) and they'd been told
    not to change it for some reason.

    > For example, this post I'm writing is done at 12:41 local, or 10:41 UTC,
    > but it will be several hours till is sent (I'm offline).


    Yep, and the time that's relevant to the rest of us is when it got to the
    server. :-)

    Jim



    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

  7. #7

    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    Jim Henderson wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:34:26 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:
    >
    >> Hmm, my news-server uses the Date: field in the email, that works
    >> very well. A simple solution would be to use the forum posting
    >> timestamp instead.

    >
    > That would require changes to both the gateway software and the
    > configuration on the NNTP server.


    Completely appreciate that, I just wanted to mention that a simple
    solution was within reach.

    > The problem with turning off the server's timestamping of messages is
    > if I set my time to sometime in 2063 and post, that's what the
    > messages will be timestamped with, and that will cause other problems..


    A typical news-server setup will reject such messages. I'm pretty
    certain it's a standard inn feature. My own setup maps emails to nntp,
    and rejects emails with ancient or future timestamps.



    --
    Per Jessen, Zürich (20.8°C)
    http://en.opensuse.org/Userjessen

  8. #8
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    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:21:16 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:

    > Jim Henderson wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:34:26 +0000, Per Jessen wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hmm, my news-server uses the Date: field in the email, that works very
    >>> well. A simple solution would be to use the forum posting timestamp
    >>> instead.

    >>
    >> That would require changes to both the gateway software and the
    >> configuration on the NNTP server.

    >
    > Completely appreciate that, I just wanted to mention that a simple
    > solution was within reach.
    >
    >> The problem with turning off the server's timestamping of messages is
    >> if I set my time to sometime in 2063 and post, that's what the messages
    >> will be timestamped with, and that will cause other problems.

    >
    > A typical news-server setup will reject such messages. I'm pretty
    > certain it's a standard inn feature. My own setup maps emails to nntp,
    > and rejects emails with ancient or future timestamps.


    I don't know if the server we use would reject those or not - if I find a
    few minutes, I'll review the docs and see.

    Jim



    --
    Jim Henderson
    openSUSE Forums Administrator
    Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

  9. #9
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    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    Carlos E. R. wrote:
    > Here, all posts I see say their timezone is "GMT", which makes no
    > sense at all.


    not sure but i think that is your client's 'feature' to calculate the
    GMT (based on what/how the sender's client stamped the post)..

    for example: the header for the note i'm responding to prints:

    NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:04:02 MDT

    with MDT for "Mountain Daylight Time" (Utah Summer) because that is
    when the server received it (i guess), but then it shows here (in my
    thunderbird) as 16:04 CET based on my locale....and, i guess your
    ClawsMail would show it as 14:04 GMT..

    client specific.

    --
    DenverD
    CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

  10. #10
    Carlos E. R. NNTP User

    Default Re: what happened today at 1923 CET ?

    On 2010-07-22 16:12 GMT Jim Henderson wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:04:02 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
    >
    > > Dunno about that, it is how mail works. I like to see at what time a
    > > post was sent, and on what timezone. Here, all posts I see say their
    > > timezone is "GMT", which makes no sense at all.

    >
    > Sure it does - UTC (GMT) is a common point of reference. If I post a
    > message now (10:10 AM MDT), that is 16:10 GMT.


    No, no. I mean that it doesn't make sense that everybody is posting
    from the GMT time zone: we should be seeing posts made from all the
    timezones.

    I mean that I would like to see "MDT" on your timestamp, not GMT.


    > > Looking at the headers of your post, I see three dates:
    > >
    > > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:31:14 GMT
    > > X-Trace: kozak.provo.novell.com 1279751474 68.165.29.223 (Wed, 21
    > > Jul 2010 16:31:14 MDT)
    > > NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:31:14 MDT
    > >
    > > I assume the NNTP-Posting-Date is from the nntp server, and "Date"
    > > should be the local time of the poster - which probably is not, it
    > > is also done by the server.

    >
    > Correct.
    >
    > > And my guess is that most machines nowdays have correct time/date.

    >
    > You'd be surprised at how many people have incorrect time on their
    > system. I was working with someone the other day whose clock was
    > several hours off for their local time (but not UTC either) and
    > they'd been told not to change it for some reason.


    Ah, well, those are exceptions. And if you see someone with the wrong
    time/date, you can tell them to correct their installation ;-)



    > > For example, this post I'm writing is done at 12:41 local, or 10:41
    > > UTC, but it will be several hours till is sent (I'm offline).

    >
    > Yep, and the time that's relevant to the rest of us is when it got to
    > the server. :-)


    No, both times are relevant. It is interesting to know when the poster
    wrote, because it correlates to the info he had available, and when it
    was actually sent.

    Let me explain with an example.

    at 10:00 UTC Guy A posts a question.
    at 11:00 UTC Guy B writes (not sends) a solution
    at 12:00 UTC Guy C posts a question from A.
    at 13:00 UTC Guy A answers C question, which will
    invalidate Mr B solution
    at 14:00 UTC Guy B gets online post all his pending posts.


    It is clear that B did not see A 2nd posts at the time he wrote. But
    now look at what will happen with the time stamps as they currently are:


    at 10:00 UTC Guy A posts a question.
    at 11:00 UTC Guy B writes (not sends) a solution
    at 12:00 UTC Guy C posts a question from A.
    at 13:00 UTC Guy A answers C question, which will
    invalidate Mr B solution
    at 14:00 UTC Guy B gets online to send all his pending posts.
    But his post will be dated 14:00 UTC.
    at 14:30 UTC Guy C remonstrate to B for not using info
    from 2nd A post, which at 14:00 was available (for an hour).


    Flames! >:-P


    Granted, not every body can be subject to this scenario, but I am. Or
    was.

    Ha! I just noticed. I just sent, an hour ago, a post I wrote about
    20 hours before, because I forgot to run "fetchnews" yesterday... but
    it will be dated today.


    --
    Cheers / Saludos,

    Carlos E. R.
    (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))


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