keyboard/graphics settings in 11.2RC2

[Cloddy]

didencool wrote:

>> To find the new system, check the last line of Jens' reply to me at #30.
> agreed with epicurious
> that is not an answer...
>
> not all use kde that is #1 situation

The lesson one should learn from that is to give more information when
raising a query. The OP wanted to know why the change was made and I believe
that the bug entry answered that. So, although you may think my reply was
not an answer, you are mistaken. It may not have been the one he wanted but
it was the best I could do in the circumstances.

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman not newsboy
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."

[didencool]

Graham P Davis wrote:

> It may not have been the one he
> wanted but it was the best I could do in the circumstances.
I am pretty sure you are in any case i did not want to blame you
and thank you for your reaply and a bit clearification.

I am just missunderstanding such step. Maybe it is for sure needed(I am do
not no) but it should be explanation about this.
Somebody should to say we're right we have no way to make it in another way.
And explaine this.
Or told to people sorry I am (we are) missed, sorry ppl be patient

But it is absolutely silence... I'am understand that now it is gold master
baking and devs is very buisy
but 10 minutes of one of dev's time should be founded in this situation IMO

--
WBR

[epicurious]

Originally Posted by Cloddy

didencool wrote:

>> To find the new system, check the last line of Jens' reply to me at #30.
> agreed with epicurious
> that is not an answer...
>
> not all use kde that is #1 situation

The lesson one should learn from that is to give more information when
raising a query. The OP wanted to know why the change was made and I believe
that the bug entry answered that. So, although you may think my reply was
not an answer, you are mistaken. It may not have been the one he wanted but
it was the best I could do in the circumstances.

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman not newsboy
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."

Do you mean me? I didn't originally ask why the change was made... I just wanted the ****ed thing to work. And it's still not!

I don't think it's a bug though: I just think the deliberate change is a mistake. I don't want to have to download KDE or GNOME: and if I could configure and customise my system using Sax before, why shouldn't I be able to now? I also don't expect you to be able to answer: but it'd be great if anyone has any suitable mouse/keyboard configuring alternatives now that Sax has been changed.

didencool wrote:

> Camaleón wrote:
>
>> To setup keyboard and mouse you have to use the tools provided by your
>> desktop environment.
> and what about icewm? for example
>
>> First, you can still use the standard "xorg.conf" file, and tweak all the
>> things there. If you had a previous working installation, you can try to
>> use the same "xorg.conf" file.
>
> yep
> man it is 2009 Q4


Use the graphical tools, then. Any recent and complete DE have (or should)
provide that tools.


> how can I explain to my son 11 y.o.
> first - why keyboard switch was working normally and now he need to edit
> xorg.conf?


You don't have to explain that to your son. Just get it setup and working
for him, that's all. As you are the administrator of the machine, you have
to do that job, right? :-)


> second - why he should use opensuse with such userunfriendly thing, when
> all over here, his friends, uses pirated windows and from everywhere is
> told that ubuntu just work.


You have to take into account that almost any other distribution does the
same way. Ubuntu does not have YaST neither SaX2. In openSUSE you have to
use now the same tools available in all other distros.


>> And last but not least, you can fill a bugzilla. If things are not
>> working as they should by default, that is the best approach to get them
>> corrected.
>
> yep
>
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483554
> Enhancement P2 - High RESOLVED RC 2
> I have RC2, maybe i missed something?
>
> sax2 that i have still have no keyboard and mouse settings

You missed the point of that bugzilla, sir :-)

That bugzilla says that those tools are now removed, no more no less. And it
will documented under Release Notes (read comment #59 from Karl).

> no way out to configure the keyboard layout switch from gui


Then you should open a bugzilla for that.


>

> Users expect the keyboard to work with the correct layout (selected during
> the
> installation) everywhere. That's one of the main requisites for YAST and
> everything else would be a big regression.
> AFAICS, this means that YaST has to configure / modify several application
> settings (e.g. the KDE-settings).
> Isn't that too complex / too much work ? Just my 2 cents...
>
> AFAICS, bugs 498314, 534300, 531250 and 534023 are duplicates.
> I'm afraid we will get more of them...
>

> from M6 is nothing changed. Did you seriously mean to post one more
> bugreport?


Yes. If something is not correctly working for your setup, just open a
bugzilla for that. I have no problems with my mouse, keyboard or vga card
on RC2, they are properly detected and configured.


> I'm sad with this
> Somebody take position that it is not needed anymore.


You can open a feature in openFATE if you think this tools should be
restored to the current distribution. If that feature gets a lot of votes
then it should be considered, I guess.


>

> This also means that keyboard/mouse configuration is now fully done in the
> desktops, AFAIK KDE3, KDE4 and Gnome (probably also Xfce) provide tools
> for that. Redhat and Ubuntu rely on this since some time (no xorg.conf at
> all).
>

> no it is not working in icewm,(guess fluxbox, awesome and many others wm),
> this does not any affect for tty terminal. if some crash happens can be
> needed to run even fvw(xorg native wm)

Then blame your WM >:-)

How are this windows managers been working with the rest of distributions
that do not have SaX2 at all? :-?


> I am really sure that community should discuss and vote about desisions
> that should be removed (maybe it was discussed and i'm just miss it)
> but I am not see any normal explanation about this step. I guess
> developers talked about on some irc channel and take a decision, that this
> will good. For them?


openFATE is your friend :-)


> If this is really should be made, on my personal opinion it needs two
> versions before remove to make it smoothly.
> Of couse it is not the end of world. I can read
> man xorg.conf
> and edit it with vi... and probably it become to work. But such
> relationship with users will not add users to community. I'm guess devs
> don't care. Hope i'll wrong

New times, new tools :-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón

epicurious wrote:

> Camaleón;2059858 Wrote:
>>
>> To setup keyboard and mouse you have to use the tools provided by your
>> desktop environment.
>>
>> [...]you can still use "sax2" at command line, to help you with the
>> detection of the vga driver/screen configuration.
>>
>> [...]And last but not least, you can fill a bugzilla. If things are not
>> working
>> as they should by default, that is the best approach to get them
>> corrected.
>>
>>
>
> Fluxbox is a window manager. I don't have a desktop environment. That's
> my point. I don't need a desktop environment to use my computer. The
> advantage is that I get to pick the apps I need to do things, without
> having to have things I don't want.
>
> Sax used to do what I needed without having to tweak xorg.conf [which
> is what I'm having to do now]. The decision has been made to remove
> those bits I - and others? - need, which means it's not actually a bug.
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult here: I actually want a solution. But I
> really cannot understand what was wrong with the old way, especially for
> those who don't use a desktop environment.

Read my comment above: "sax2" is still available to be run in command line.

***
YaST and X.Org Configuration (Keyboard, Mouse, Graphics Board, and Monitor)
http://www.suse.com/relnotes/i386/op...TES.en.html#04
***

And again, if you feel this decision is bad, just go to openFATE and create
a feature for this, explaining your points on why this tool should be
restored it.

I also like it, but I understand the reasons given by developers to throw it
away :-/

Greetings,

--
Camaleón

[Cloddy]

epicurious wrote:

> Do you mean me? I didn't originally ask why the change was made... I
> just wanted the ****ed thing to work.

Dead right. Sorry. I must've clicked on the wrong posting. I'll blame it on
a senior moment.

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks., UK. E-mail: newsman not newsboy
"I wear the cheese. It does not wear me."

[epicurious]

Originally Posted by Camaleón

[color=blue]
[...]
Read my comment above: "sax2" is still available to be run in command line.

I'm not disputing that: it's just that the keyboard [and mouse, now I come to think of it] modules for SaX aren't there anymore. According to the bug discussion thread, they haven't been removed, but hidden.

So my question is: how does one re-enable these modules so that they can be accessed through the GUI?

That's actually the only thing I want to know now.

[didencool]

Camaleón wrote:

> Use the graphical tools, then. Any recent and complete DE have (or should)
> provide that tools.
laptop working with complite DE very slow... guess - bought new one? bad
idea to me for now
> You don't have to explain that to your son. Just get it setup and working
> for him, that's all. As you are the administrator of the machine, you have
> to do that job, right? :-)
normally I show to him how to work and he is administrator of his laptop.
> You have to take into account that almost any other distribution does the
> same way. Ubuntu does not have YaST neither SaX2. In openSUSE you have to
> use now the same tools available in all other distros.
exactly... and now openSUSE=UBUNTU and that is not a compliment
> You missed the point of that bugzilla, sir :-)
yes I... I mean comments that I qoute in previous post
> That bugzilla says that those tools are now removed, no more no less. And
> it will documented under Release Notes (read comment #59 from Karl).
Actually I understand a bit, why this was made. But imo this was made dirty.
the key of such move I guess (because noone told about) is to divide users
setting for a keyboard switch, and that is absolutly good idea. But that was
made on wrong level.
It should not depends on DE... so in terminal and all DE should work with
users setting also. And some defalt setting for whole system as is right now
for 11.2
> Then you should open a bugzilla for that.
I'm want to discuss about this at general chit-chat(for now this does not
any sence as far as I understand). i will describe my vision at sunday. Then
depends on reaction of people I or somebody other post a feature request.
> Yes. If something is not correctly working for your setup, just open a
> bugzilla for that. I have no problems with my mouse, keyboard or vga card
> on RC2, they are properly detected and configured.
that is not a sence of my postings. But I will take it to arm
> How are this windows managers been working with the rest of distributions
> that do not have SaX2 at all? :-?
actually I does not care about other distributions. I use opensuse, and I
want to use it in future
> openFATE is your friend :-)
OK. I'll give it a try. But before discussion. Who am I to post features?
Nobody take care about that and if people support some idea. That is a point
to make a feature. I did not want to waste developers time at openfate.
> New times, new tools :-)
if this tools illogical or irrational, I am abssolutely disagree :-)
> Greetings,
cheers, []) beer
--
WBR

epicurious wrote:
[color=blue]
> Camaleón;2059985 Wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> Read my comment above: "sax2" is still available to be run in command
>> line.
>>
>
> I'm not disputing that: it's just that the keyboard [and mouse, now I
> come to think of it] modules for SaX aren't there anymore. According to
> the bug discussion thread, they haven't been removed, but hidden.

- Keyboard and mouse modules in sax2 are removed
- VGA in sax2 is still available

> So my question is: *how does one re-enable these modules so that they
> can be accessed through the GUI?*
>
> That's actually the only thing I want to know now.

You can't. They have been dropped off.

To configure mouse and keyboard, the recommended ways (AFAIK) are:

- Using DE own tools
- Using YaST2 module "Text on console GPM"
- Using "setxkbmap/xinput" if any of the above options are not available

openSUSE is moving from "static" to "dynamic" X configuration so we have to
adapt us to that change.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón

didencool wrote:

> Camaleón wrote:
>
>> Use the graphical tools, then. Any recent and complete DE have (or
>> should) provide that tools.


> laptop working with complite DE very slow... guess - bought new one? bad
> idea to me for now

Then use another tools to setup the mouse and keyboard.


>> You don't have to explain that to your son. Just get it setup and working
>> for him, that's all. As you are the administrator of the machine, you
>> have to do that job, right? :-)

> normally I show to him how to work and he is administrator of his laptop.


Then show him to the things are done now :-)


>> You have to take into account that almost any other distribution does the
>> same way. Ubuntu does not have YaST neither SaX2. In openSUSE you have to
>> use now the same tools available in all other distros.


> exactly... and now openSUSE=UBUNTU and that is not a compliment

Xorg (FreeDesktop) is an open standard many linux distributions are
following. And Xorg uses HAL (on-the-fly devices setup) which will be
replaced soon by PolicyKit.

So I'd say openSUSE is on that same track, not the Ubuntu's one but the
FreeDesktop's one.


>> You missed the point of that bugzilla, sir :-)

> yes I... I mean comments that I qoute in previous post

O.k.

>> That bugzilla says that those tools are now removed, no more no less. And
>> it will documented under Release Notes (read comment #59 from Karl).

> Actually I understand a bit, why this was made. But imo this was made
> dirty. the key of such move I guess (because noone told about) is to
> divide users setting for a keyboard switch, and that is absolutly good
> idea. But that was made on wrong level.
> It should not depends on DE... so in terminal and all DE should work with
> users setting also. And some defalt setting for whole system as is right
> now for 11.2


You can use the hard way and setting up the devices by hand, manually
editing the files.


>> Then you should open a bugzilla for that.

> I'm want to discuss about this at general chit-chat(for now this does not
> any sence as far as I understand). i will describe my vision at sunday.
> Then depends on reaction of people I or somebody other post a feature
> request.

There is at least one feature open:

#308152: KEEP Sax2's GUI in 11.2 Final!
https://features.opensuse.org/308152


>> Yes. If something is not correctly working for your setup, just open a
>> bugzilla for that. I have no problems with my mouse, keyboard or vga card
>> on RC2, they are properly detected and configured.

> that is not a sence of my postings. But I will take it to arm

Now we have no other chance :-(


>> How are this windows managers been working with the rest of distributions
>> that do not have SaX2 at all? :-?

> actually I does not care about other distributions. I use opensuse, and I
> want to use it in future


Then, if you like to be on openSUSE, you'll have to collaborate and make
your voice "visible" to the developers :-)

>> openFATE is your friend :-)

> OK. I'll give it a try. But before discussion. Who am I to post features?
> Nobody take care about that and if people support some idea. That is a
> point to make a feature. I did not want to waste developers time at
> openfate.

I found one feature opened. And I'm sure another users are still thinking
the same as you. Look, another bugzilla:

Bug 483554 - RN: sax2: Remove keyboard and mouse configuration modules
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483554

>> New times, new tools :-)

> if this tools illogical or irrational, I am abssolutely disagree :-)

Then tell the developers about your "logical" and "rational" point of view
and try to convince them ;-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón