Yay for OS 11.2 RC1!

[epicurious]

Er...

I don't necessarily agree with the way TaraIkeda is putting forward the viewpoint, but I do agree with the sentiment... so here's an effort to say it all a bit calmer.

On another thread I asked about modifying my keyboard and touchpad settings: as I'm using Fluxbox and not using a full desktop environment I fall outside the groups of people that have a GUI to modify these settings. And I like graphical ways of modifying things - I find them easier. Like lots of people [otherwise we wouldn't have graphical desktops, eh?].

SaX was a fantastic tool for this - the keyboard module had a list from which I could choose options; and the mouse module had Synaptics listed there too. I had to become root to use it, but hey, no biggie.

But removing them from 11.2 has meant that I spent much longer trying to sort out the mess than I did installing 11.0 - which was a breeze. I'm not a "power user" but I can find my way around a system, and I found it tricky.

As far as I can gather from the discussions, the keyboard/mouse settings modules have been removed from SaX. I understand that this is because full DEs like KDE have settings managers of their own; but I believe that it discounts choice for the user - the option of using anything other than KDE, GNOME or XFCE is instantly made harder.

But I think the change is needless: if these things are modules and SaX is a modular program like YaST, then why can't the user choose whether to have the modules or not, like YaST?

[oldcpu]

For those who have been following this thread, and who have not researched this themselves, note sax2 has NOT been removed from openSUSE. At least as of openSUSE-11.2 RC2 it was still there on my PC.

I repeat, sax2 does come with openSUSE-11.2 RC2.

It has been removed from YaST, so all the rants and complaints are that it has been removed from openSUSE are either:

• misinformed FUD
• an exaggeration,
• a lack of research
• a rant based on disappointment that it has been removed from YaST

Also, for those who have not researched this , there are other tools besides sax2 that one can also run in run level 3 to create an /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, IF it is deemed necessary. For example, there is the tool "nvidia-xconfig" that I now use to initially setup my xorg.conf if necessary, after installing the propropietary nVidia driver "the hardway". If one looks at the resultant xorg.conf file produced by "sax2" and also look at the file if instead created by "nvidia-xconfig" (in both cases starting with no previous xorg.conf file) one will see that the "nvidia-xconfig" config file is a LOT cleaner than that created by sax2. Some say the "nvidia-xconfig" produced config file is superior to that produced by "sax2".

[epicurious]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

For those who have been following this thread, and who have not researched this themselves, note sax2 has NOT been removed from openSUSE. At least as of openSUSE-11.2 RC2 it was still there on my PC.

I repeat, sax2 does come with openSUSE-11.2 RC2.

It has been removed from YaST, so all the rants and complaints are that it has been removed from openSUSE are either:

• misinformed FUD
• an exaggeration,
• a lack of research
• a rant based on disappointment that it has been removed from YaST

Also, for those who have not researched this , there are other tools besides sax2 that one can also run in run level 3 to create an /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, IF it is deemed necessary. For example, there is the tool "nvidia-xconfig" that I now use to initially setup my xorg.conf if necessary, after installing the propropietary nVidia driver "the hardway". If one looks at the resultant xorg.conf file produced by "sax2" and also look at the file if instead created by "nvidia-xconfig" (in both cases starting with no previous xorg.conf file) one will see that the "nvidia-xconfig" config file is a LOT cleaner than that created by sax2. Some say the "nvidia-xconfig" produced config file is superior to that produced by "sax2".

oldcpu: I didn't mean to exaggerate: but it's clear that when I use SaX on my desktop - which is 11.1 - I can set the keyboard and mouse from there: but on my laptop - 11.2RC2 - I can't because the modules aren't there.

I haven't got a problem with SaX not being in YaST: my issue is removing the keyboard and mouse config modules, and thus crippling SaX for me as a desktop config tool. With the things I use, I'd much rather the tablet and touchscreen modules went: but they're still there. And that's fine because people may need to use them.

But my question still stands: if these things are modules of SaX, then why can't the user have the choice of installing them or not, as one can choose modules in YaST?

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by epicurious

oldcpu: I didn't mean to exaggerate: but it's clear that when I use SaX on my desktop - which is 11.1 - I can set the keyboard and mouse from there: but on my laptop - 11.2RC2 - I can't because the modules aren't there.

I haven't got a problem with SaX not being in YaST: my issue is removing the keyboard and mouse config modules, and thus crippling SaX for me as a desktop config tool. With the things I use, I'd much rather the tablet and touchscreen modules went: but they're still there. And that's fine because people may need to use them.

But my question still stands: if these things are modules of SaX, then why can't the user have the choice of installing them or not, as one can choose modules in YaST?

Why are you directing this post at me? I'm trying to dispell the incorrect statements being posted about sax2 being removed... I have no desire to be drawn in to someone's pet peeve about the scope of sax2 being changed.

You already have another thread on this, where the relevant bug that documented this was noted: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483554 i.e. in other words, to try and keep sax2 up to date with hal was not feasible. Something had to "give" and in this case it was the manual tool sax2. IMHO when something like that is about to happen, the ONLY way to stop it is to volunteer to take over the maintenance/coding themself. If one is not a coder, and if one can not afford to pay for a coder, then one has to simply accept what is provided. Complaining at volunteers on a SUPPORT forum like this, is likely to have little impact. Note the developers do NOT monitor this support forum. They exchange their plans on mailing lists. And IF in a very rare case one somehow managed to get their attention on a SUPPORT forum such as this, if one is not tactful in how one posts their complaint (and I note you have been tactful, which is good) at the most the developers will just walk away and move to another distribution or another OS and contribute there instead.

And once again, we are are support forum here, not a development forum.

Did you look into other tools to do what you wish to do with your keyboard or mouse?

Anyway, as noted, my intention is to dispel the INCORRECT statements that sax2 has been removed from openSUSE-11.2 , not to get involved in someone else's pet peeve. I have no intention of being dragged into a thread on the scope/functionality of sax2 and I will not participate in such a discussion as I have nothing positive to contribute there.

[epicurious]

Hey oldcpu - sorry. Like I said, I didn't want to exaggerate, and it was just a question since I did find those bits of SaX useful - it wasn't supposed to go into a squabble, which is how most of these things end up. And this thread was getting squabbly, so I thought I'd try and state our point of view slightly more reasonably without getting anyone's back up.

I can't use openFATE - it keeps throwing my comments back at me saying I'm providing a malformed URL - so I can't put my feature request there [because I don't think it's really a bug, if someone decides to remove something]. So my comments are here.

In terms of other tools: well, I had a look at xkeycaps, which is woefully inadequate and didn't help at all.

The only thing I could think of for my touchpad was gsynaptics - and it only made temporary changes on my system and didn't seem to set the driver in an XOrg config. the LXDE stuff only set things like repeat rates...

So it was vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf - which was something I didn't think I'd have to do for a while...

So if there are any mouse/keyboard layout GUI tools out there that anyone knows, that'd be fab!

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by epicurious

So if there are any mouse/keyboard layout GUI tools out there that anyone knows, that'd be fab!

I don't know about the keyboard, but I had thought the sax2 mouse modules were put into the YaST menu (and hence still there). I know 11.2 RC2 still has yast2-mouse rpm and there is a YaST entry for configuring one's mouse.

[Knurpht]

Just this:

On all my computers (4 pc's, 2 laptops) 11.2 managed to detect and configure all hardware. I have not started sax2 on either of them. For the first time my Wacom tablets work out of the box, both at boot and at hotplugging. Installed NVIDIA driver 'the hard way' (can't we change that?). I use one of those beautiful Apple keyboards, just pointed at it in KDE4's Configure Desktop, works.

About all the ranting: nobody's forcing nobody to use linux, openSUSE, toiletpaper or food. Make your choice. If you're disappointed, make a new choice, or try to improve things. As Tarakeida knows very well, there are places to do so.

[epicurious]

Originally Posted by Knurpht

Just this:

On all my computers (4 pc's, 2 laptops) 11.2 managed to detect and configure all hardware. I have not started sax2 on either of them. For the first time my Wacom tablets work out of the box, both at boot and at hotplugging. Installed NVIDIA driver 'the hard way' (can't we change that?). I use one of those beautiful Apple keyboards, just pointed at it in KDE4's Configure Desktop, works.

About all the ranting: nobody's forcing nobody to use linux, openSUSE, toiletpaper or food. Make your choice. If you're disappointed, make a new choice, or try to improve things. As Tarakeida knows very well, there are places to do so.

I don't think that really helped at all.

I've done a bit more reading - specifically

Xorg input hotplugging - ArchWiki

Am I right in thinking that this is the intended way of configuring the system? If so, then what's needed is more .fdi files for a person's system.

Having had a look in /etc/hal/fdi/policy/ and /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/ I've noticed there aren't any for mine, a Fujitsu-Siemens S6010... this might explain why I had to edit xorg.conf and use the VESA driver for the screen - HAL doesn't have the necessary information to detect what I've got. Does anyone know where to find more fdi files, or how to write one?

Strangely, it was only after reading the well-written ArchLinux page that things became clearer - any grief that's been generated about this probably could have been allayed by an article like that one.

[BenderBendingRodriguez]

I was thinking, isn't it just a case of creating a desktop file pointing to sax2 (which exists in the system) and putting it in /usr/share/applications/YaST2 ??

You can claim your module back that way.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by BenderBendingRodriguez

I was thinking, isn't it just a case of creating a desktop file pointing to sax2 (which exists in the system) and putting it in /usr/share/applications/YaST2 ??

You can claim your module back that way.

Jonathan_R has a thread on this forum showing how to add an icon to YaST linking to an application ... and that could be used to add the sax2 icon back to YaST, if one so desired.

It won't address epicurious' concern about sax2 dropping keyboard support.

From what I can see, sax2 was dropped from YaST as the concern amongst the developers and packagers was it was not longer sufficiently effective as a configuration tool, as there were too many cases where it could not do the job adequately. The technical direction for automatic configuration of one's graphics, keyboard, and mouse, is now headed in a direction different from the old sax2 way of configuring things.