Which openSUSE version should I install? 10.3 or 11.1 ?

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by growbag

I would have to disagree slightly there, awful things like pulseaudio and beagle weren't included, and the whole 10.3 experience was a lot smoother and stable than any of the 11 series so far.

Please, can you state what hardware you base this on?

Because I found the opposite on 8 PCs all with different hardware. OpenSUSE-11.1 was superior to 10.3 in all 8 cases.

Originally Posted by growbag

The 11 series introduced repo problems, update failures, wireless connection woes, and of course the KDE4 saga.

The KDE4 saga has been discussed. Wireless for the hardware I use works far better on 11.1 with KDE3. Wireless did NOT work on 10.3 in one case for me (Intel 5300 AGN but DID "just work" on 11.1 ) and in others required a LOT of tuning on 10.3 (specifically atheros works far better on 11.1 than 10.3 for our DLink card). So I have the complete opposite experience from you when it comes to wireless. 11.1 is better.

Repo problems? No way. IMHO its better on 11.1. And a superior zypper takes advantage of this. Update failures? I have not see any on 11.1.

When 10.3 came out, I remember many detractors saying 10.3 was worse than 10.2. Some stated worse than 9.3 !! But in my experience, it alls boil down to isolated hardware cases, and in the most part the newer releases are better. ...

Perhaps 10.1 was the only exception to that, where the dropping of proprietary drivers and package management fiasco made 10.1 a step back in the minds of the majority.

Originally Posted by growbag

It was the first Linux version I had on any computer for close to a whole year without having to fiddle or repair anything. ....But for later distros, openSUSE 10.3 was (through my rose coloured glasses anyway) a gem of a distro, beating the pants off all competition.

Can you advise as to what hardware.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by mmarif4u

But i hope, 11.2 will bring some joy for all of us.

I think KDE-4.3 will be great in 11.2. Wireless (for Intel cards) should be better in 11.2 (with the 2.6.31 kernel). Sound (with 1.0.20 of alsa in 11.2) should be better in 11.2. For the first time there will be sound support for XFi devices (in 11.2).

But IMHO 11.2 will introduce its own problems. Every release does (introduce new problems).

[growbag]

@oldcpu - Can you advise as to what hardware?

Yes, the same laptop I'm still using - HP dv6645

Wireless - Broadcom 4312 wireless
Audio - Nvidia MCP65 high definition audio (snd_hda_intel)
Video - Nvidia geforce 8400M GS

But my point was from a daily use perspective, I installed 10.3 once, and I never had to touch anything after that. It was so stable and reliable that it actually became boring in the end!

With the 11 series I've had total system screw ups during and after updates, ie repos being changed midway through updating, missing Nvidia drivers that match kernel updates, and even a failed initramfs rebuild problem after a kernel update, leaving a completely useless machine!

None of those things ever happened under openSUSE before.

I can't give specifics, my memory is not that good, but the overall user experience was much smoother for me with 10.3.

It's like a past marriage, you don't remember the exact day-to-day specifics of why it was bad, you base it on the overall experience, same for me with a distro.

But having said all that, I now happily use 11.1, and don't want to go back to 10.3. Maybe because after a sharp, sometimes painful and infuriating learning curve, I managed to tame the 11.1 beast and now know it's features.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by growbag

Yes, the same laptop I'm still using - HP dv6645

Wireless - Broadcom 4312 wireless
Audio - Nvidia MCP65 high definition audio (snd_hda_intel)
Video - Nvidia geforce 8400M GS

I probably need to list the hardware of the 8 PCs that I have been using here.

But in 10.3 for every kernel update, with atheros, wireless was broken. This did not cause me a problem, as I could rebuild the rpm myself, and I had wireless working minutes after the update. But there are many very long threads and many upset rants from 10.3 users (with atheros cards) complaining about no rpms to restore their wireless in 10.3.

With 11.1, that problem is gone for our specific atheros implementation, as the new ath5k ( ? ) driver that comes with the kernel "just works". I do note it does NOT "just work" for all openSUSE-11.1 users, BUT its still an improvement over 10.3 where it never worked well for any users. The long rants in 10.3 about atheros simply are not there in 11.1.

I have nVidia hardware on 3 PCs, and as long as one uses the openGL driver, there is never any breakage when a new kernel comes out. This was true for 10.3. Its true for 11.1. For 10.3, I never installed the proprietary nVidia drivers. For 11.1, I decided to go that route, and I now have the proprietary nVidia driver on 3 PCs. However I've been around the block long enough to know when there is a kernel update, one does NOT rely on there being a corresponding driver update in the repositories for the updated kernel. I always build "the hardway" - which in fact is NOT hard.

This repository being "out of sync" is a LINUX wide problem and not specific to any one openSUSE version. I've read of Fedora and Ubuntu users complain of broken graphics, broken audio, broken web cams, broken wireless after kernel updates, where their repositories were not updated. So not just openSUSE is impacted. I also note 10.3 had problems in some cases with repositories not being updated. So 10.3 was no better from what I recall than 11.1.

Linux as a whole has to come up with a better way of doing kernel updates. I do not see an openSUSE-11.1 specific criticism here. ... Rather I see a Linux wide criticism .... And yes, I do recall many 10.3 users ranting about broken drivers after a kernel update.

Audio? My main volunteer effort is to support users with their audio. And since alsa is now included in the kernel (I do not believe it was included in 10.3) overall I have found there are FAR LESS problems with kernel updates impacting audio in 11.1 than there were in 10.3 .... If the alsa/kernel devs keep this up, I'll be out of a volunteer job soon.

Three of the 8 PCs I was involved with (for 10.3 and 11.1) have Intel graphics. They have not been affected by Kernel updates in 10.3 nor in 11.1. Two of the 8 PCs have ATI graphics. I used the openGL driver for 1 and it was not affected in 10.3 nor in 11.1. I use the proprietary in one (it was my first use of an ATI proprietary driver) and the first 11,1 kernel update I experienced broken the graphics, where I did not want to spend the time learning how to fix it, and I ended up rolling back the kernel, because I could do that better than I could fix the graphics. That was my stupidity, because its actually much easier to fix the graphics than rolling back the kernel ... But I had experience rolling back a kernel (it was easy for me) and no experience in proprietary drivers (because I was too lazy to read the entire openSUSE wiki on ATI drivers). As it turned out, I did not appreciate the need to remove the older ATI proprietary fglrx driver first, prior to installing the new driver (when installing "the hardway" - which is NOT hard). I do now appreciate it is necessary to remove the old driver first, and kernel updates with ATI hardware are now a breeze for me.

So I can say I had one problem in 11.1 that I did not have in 10.3 (which was openSUSE version independendant, and proprietary driver specific) and in all other cases, 10.3 had more problems.

But having typed the above details, I concede that this IS hardware specific. I avoid Broadcom wireless like the plague, as it is NOT as easy to configure as Intel and selected Atheros (IMHO).

[growbag]

Exactly, it all comes down to which hardware you have!

For my Broadcom (I have no choice because this laptop refuses to accept any other internal wireless card, believe me I tried to swap it for both an Atheros and an Intel, and asked HP who said it can't be done - grrr!), all I do is keep a copy of the firmware and copy it into the /lib/firmware folder, reload the b43 module and it's up and running in seconds .

i'm running 10.3 and happy about it....except for soon being forced to
either update, switch distros or learn how to keep 10.3 patched and safe..

have not decided which way to go....foolishly, i keep thinking 'they'
will get it right at last and i can install 11.2 and use it for about
18 months..

--
goldie

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by growbag

For my Broadcom (I have no choice because this laptop refuses to accept any other internal wireless card, believe me I tried to swap it for both an Atheros and an Intel, and asked HP who said it can't be done - grrr!), all I do is keep a copy of the firmware and copy it into the /lib/firmware folder, reload the b43 module and it's up and running in seconds .

This would be rather annoying, IMHO. I was fortunate with my Dell, that the Dell website gave me a choice of 3 or 4 different wireless.

I take it this is your HP HP dv6645 laptop. ....

Could you possible make an entry in the openSUSE HCL on it HCL/Laptops/HP - openSUSE , noting this limitation (please be tactful. ).

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by goldie

i'm running 10.3 and happy about it....except for soon being forced to
either update, switch distros or learn how to keep 10.3 patched and safe..

have not decided which way to go....foolishly, i keep thinking 'they'
will get it right at last and i can install 11.2 and use it for about
18 months..

Its not too late to download openSUSE-11.1 with its KDE-3.5.10. A LOT of udpates have been done between NOW and when 11.1 was released last year, fixing a number of its "evils" (although thats a relative expression, as I never found any major "bugs" and for the hardware I use 11.1 was a BIG improvement over 10.3, while a small number of others were outraged by 11.1). .... In three more months it will be harder to download 11.1. Go for it now.

While 11.1 works very very well on the hardware that I maintain openSUSE on (7 to 8 PCs), I've been playing with 11.2 milestone releases, and thus far I have not found anything "blocking" on 11.2 for my installing it around the Christmas time frame (possibly sooner, possibly later). But I'm only talking a small number of PCs to update to 11.2 (7 to 8). ... and typically, I only update a small number at a time, stretching out the update from one PC (with the lastest openSUSE release) to another PC, over a many month time period. ... ie I have a large observation period with each PC, before I move to the next ... (another example of my over-kill conservatism).

[Knurpht]

May I add, that from the 11 series upgrading one version to another has become much easier. Lately I upgraded a HP server running 11.0 to 11.1 in less than 40 minutes. It's running ever since with zero problems.

I too think that 10.3 was a very stable release, but we've moved on, a lot of things we accepted in 10.3 for not yet possible now are mainstream. Other things, like booting have increased in speed and performance. So, 11.1 it is, and as soon as it's there 11.2 it will be.

[growbag]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

....(please be tactful. ).

Me be tactful? ...remind me, what does that mean again?

But yes sure, maybe tomorrow after I've finished playing with m6