Suggestions for openSUSE-11.1 Newbie Installation stickie?

> I also don't see any reference to it during the live CD aquisition
> process nor during SUSE install.

i believe this is an EXCELLENT point!

take a look at this page through a first time openSUSE user's eyes:

http://software.opensuse.org/

imo, step 5 needs MORE information...some or all of:

- Before you burn your disk, see the great time saving info at
http://tinyurl.com/6jwtg9

- Welcome to the openSUSE community. Join us at
http://forums.opensuse.org]

- other?

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platinum

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by traderbam

The location and importance has to be obvious. I can not see "Beginners Installation Guide" in big letters on the openSUSE.org home page.

We are working on this.

The forum format has changed twice in the past couple of days, as the admins are trying out different locations for the New Users section. But we are not going to move posts there until we sort out the final location.

Originally Posted by traderbam

That's where it should be. I also don't see any reference to it during the live CD aquisition process nor during SUSE install.

And you WON'T find it in the SUSE install. We don't package openSUSE. We are a support forum with no association with the packagers.

But we do plan to put a link on the wiki download page, which IS part of the CD acquisition process, but we can NOT do that until we sort out our forum format change, and as I noted, we tried out two different formats in the last couple of days. ... When that stabilizes, and only AFTER that stabilizes, will we be able to add the planned link.

Originally Posted by traderbam

I would not naturally think to go to a chat forum to find an installation guide. I would more naturally expect it in a formal documentation section.

Formal documentation? What is formal? Again, we are a support forum with no direct contact nor indirect contact with the packagers.

Originally Posted by traderbam

Even if I did browse the forum, I don't see an explicit banner for installation and set-up in the forum home page. Maybe it's just me.

Its not just you. But please read my post above in terms of what we plan:
a. a bigger New Users (readonly) FAQ
b. a notification when a new user logs in for the 1st 10 times they log in advising of the bigger New Users FAQ (which will show up the 1st 10 times, unless they close the notification);
c. a link in the installation wiki to our forum.

[traderbam]

Slightly tangential observation: An example of how unhelpful SUSE documentation can seem.

I noticed that if I leave my computer for some time (not sure how long) KDE locks my screen and asks for a password to unlock it. I prefer not to have my screen locked or I would like to adjust the timeout. My assumption: not exactly an exotic desktop function; ought to be easy to adjust.

1) First instinct: right click on desktop area. Click "desktop settings". Erm, nothing relevant.

2) Second instinct: try "configure desktop" on apps menu. I go through most of the icons to no avail. Hmm.

3) Third instinct: ask for help. Click the lifepreserver icon with the friendly lizard face labelled "online help".

--> Presented with "many options". First is "Documentation". Sounds right - click this.

--> Some options that I don't really understand, except for "Official doc for SUSE project". I wonder why this isn't at the top of the list. Click this.

--> List of many pdfs. Ok...Ah a "search" tab at the top. Good. I'll try searching. Click this. Type "screen lock" into the search window.

--> I get this search result:

Search Results for "screen lock"
SORT NOVELL: Search Results

SHOW NOVELL: Search Results

1.395 seconds
1 to 10 of 15
1. 88% Novell Doc: KDE3 User Guide Logging In and Selecting a Desktop
1.1 Logging In and Selecting a Desktop If more than one user account is configured on your computer, usually all users must authenticate?unless Auto Login is configured for a certain user. Auto login logs the user in to the desktop environment automatica... 19 Jun 2008
2. 87% Novell Doc: KDE3 User Guide Controlling Your Desktop's Power Management with KPowersave
1.14 Controlling Your Desktop's Power Management with KPowersave KPowersave is a small panel applet which allows you to control all power management functions supported by your system with just a few clicks on the desktop. You can track power consumption... 19 Jun 2008
3. 87% Novell Doc: KDE3 User Guide Desktop Components
1.3 Desktop Components The graphical desktop environment should not pose any problems for former Windows or Macintosh users. The main components of the desktop are the icons on the desktop and the panel at the bottom of the screen. Figure 1-2 An Exampl... 19 Jun 2008
4. 86% Novell Doc: KDE3 User Guide The KDE Control Center
2.1 The KDE Control Center The KDE control center is the central place for users to change the overall appearance and behavior of nearly any component of the KDE desktop. Start the control center from the main menu by selecting Favorites Personal Settin... 19 Jun 2008
5. 86% Novell Doc: GNOME Quick Start Getting Started
Getting Started When you start your system, you are usually prompted to enter your username and password. If someone else installed your system, check with your system administrator for your username and password. After logging in to GNOME for the first ... 19 Jun 2008
6. 86% Novell Doc: Reference Booting with GRUB
9.2 Booting with GRUB GRUB (Grand Unified Bootloader) comprises two stages. stage1 consists of 512 bytes and its only task is to load the second stage of the boot loader. Subsequently, stage2 is loaded. This stage contains the main part of the boot loade... 19 Jun 2008
7. 85% Novell Doc: Reference Preparing the Boot of the Target System
1.3 Preparing the Boot of the Target System This section covers the configuration tasks needed in complex boot scenarios. It contains ready-to-apply configuration examples for DHCP, PXE boot, TFTP, and Wake on LAN.1.3.1 Setting Up a DHCP Server There are... 19 Jun 2008
8. 85% Novell Doc: KDE Quick Start Customizing Your Desktop
Customizing Your Desktop You can change the way your KDE desktop looks and behaves to suit your own personal tastes and needs.Locking and Unlocking Desktop Objects Desktop elements can be locked in their current position to prevent them from being moved ... 19 Jun 2008
9. 85% Novell Doc: KDE3 User Guide Working with Baskets
11.2 Working with Baskets After creating your baskets and sub-baskets, fill them with different notes. Notes can include different types of data, for example text, images, URLs, application launchers as well as links, e-mail addresses, files and colors. ... 19 Jun 2008
10. 76% Novell Doc: Novell AppArmor Administration Guide Two Methods of Profiling
5.6 Two Methods of Profiling Given the syntax for AppArmor profiles in you could create profiles without using the tools. However, the effort involved would be substantial. To avoid such a hassle, use the AppArmor tools to automate the creation and refin... 19 Jun 2008

4) Fourth instinct: life's too short, live with the screen lock.

How to set the screen lock might want to be in the "basic configuration" section of the hypothetical "installation guide".
(BTW: does anyone know how to turn the screen lock off? No, it isn't to do with the power saving or my screen saver set up. Been there, tried that :-) )

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by traderbam

1) First instinct: right click on desktop area. Click "desktop settings". Erm, nothing relevant.

This is desktop specific.

Your first instinct was correct, and that works with KDE-3.5.10.

What desktop did you choose? What can I say?

[traderbam]

OS: Linux 2.6.27.29-0.1-default x86_64
System: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64)
KDE: 4.1.3 (KDE 4.1.3) "release 4.10.4"

I had no say in my KDE. This is how it installed.

Is this is goof in KDE 4.1.3? So if it is and KDE 3.5.10 is better for a beginner, then the installation guide configuration section should recommend downgrading KDE and show how to do it.

Should I change to KDE 3.5.10?

In a thread I started on this topic, I have received a load of suggestions that may work on some incarnations but don't on mine. However, one of them was to upgrade to KDE 4.2. What to do?

I don't understand why SUSE 11.1 live CD version comes with KDE 4.1.3 if this is not the recommended version of KDE.

> I had no say in my KDE. This is how it installed.

sure you did...you chose the install media which installed only KDE4,
or you chose during installation to not install KDE3 or other..

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platinum

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by traderbam

I had no say in my KDE. This is how it installed.

Is this is goof in KDE 4.1.3? So if it is and KDE 3.5.10 is better for a beginner, then the installation guide configuration section should recommend downgrading KDE and show how to do it.

Like life, things in Linux are not all black and white. To say 3.5.10 is better for beginners would cause a flame war, and that flame war would accomplish little.

You had the choice upon installing. You simply did not understand what you were presented with, and rather than pause and ask, you steamed ahead and ignored the choice. Its far too complex in an installation package to explain the choice. You have to do that on your own. Full Stop.

3.5.10 is rock solid compared to 4.1.3 , but that does mean it is better for beginners.

Originally Posted by traderbam

Should I change to KDE 3.5.10?

I use 3.5.10 on all of our PCs, but I am on the verge of changing to KDE-4.3.

Originally Posted by traderbam

In a thread I started on this topic, I have received a load of suggestions that may work on some incarnations but don't on mine. However, one of them was to upgrade to KDE 4.2. What to do?

KDE is in transition. Which means the older 3.5.10 is no longer supported much (even though it is rock solid) and KDE4 is under heavy development, but it still has some bugs.

Originally Posted by traderbam

I don't understand why SUSE 11.1 live CD version comes with KDE 4.1.3 if this is not the recommended version of KDE.

SuSE-GmbH does not have the resources to package 6 live CDs (ie 3x i586 and 3x x86_64). So only KDE4 (which was 4.1.3 at the time), and Gnome were chosen, such than only 4 live CDs had to be packaged. That decision was not with out some controversy.

In response a member of the openSUSE community (with some support) created a live CD for KDE-3.5.10. Read here: Live CD - openSUSE

and here: Carlos Gonçalves: Unofficial KDE 3.5 Live CD for openSUSE 11.1

and its in the stickie that this thread is support in post #11 openSUSE Forums - View Single Post - NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - post#11

There is a lot of information in that stickie, almost ALL of it is important, and I am starting to develop the opinion the stickie was only "skimmed thru" and most of it was simply ignored, thinking it was unimportant. Perhaps reading it again is a good idea ?

[traderbam]

There is no choice about KDE version. See: Software.openSUSE.org

There is a choice between KDE4 and GNOME and I did do some internet searches about the differences and they seemed mostly a matter of taste. So I just went with KDE because it was listed first.


I would like to assure you that I do not mean to deny or underplay the abundance and detail and quality of information available in this forum and the obvious great efforts that you have gone to already. I am rather trying to communicate my experience of how unobvious/difficult/overwhelming/time-consuming finding the right info is inspite of all this. The main problem may be knowing what one doesn't know.

I think there is a significant difference between a repository of info and a guide.

FWIW I'd recommend a stand-alone Installation Guide in pdf format (so it can be printed out easily - when you are installing SUSE you may not be able to browse the forum) that gets the novice (perhaps focussed at Windows users) to a basic level of configuration and administration competence and provides some pointer to how to move beyond this. That's all.

I may be in a minority of 1 here...I understand that.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by traderbam

. I am rather trying to communicate my experience of how unobvious/difficult/overwhelming/time-consuming finding the right info is inspite of all this. The main problem may be knowing what one doesn't know.

You have a good point ... that has to be something we all struggled with when first approaching Linux.

Indeed the easiest way is to have a knowledgeable Linux user first show one "the ropes". Unfortunately thats not possible for most of us.

Originally Posted by traderbam

I think there is a significant difference between a repository of info and a guide.

FWIW I'd recommend a stand-alone Installation Guide in pdf format (so it can be printed out easily - when you are installing SUSE you may not be able to browse the forum) that gets the novice (perhaps focussed at Windows users) to a basic level of configuration and administration competence and provides some pointer to how to move beyond this.

The packagers include various manuals with openSUSE in pdf format.

That page is linked to from the stickie. See post#9 in the stickie: openSUSE Forums - View Single Post - NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - post#9

Its not our intention in the stickie to replace those guides, nor indeed is it our intention to write a new beginners guide. Rather our intention is based on our experience in helping many users, point to some of the salient points where a larger % of users go astray , and links that will help them IF they take the time to review the links.

> There is no choice about KDE version. See: 'Software.openSUSE.org'
> (http://software.opensuse.org/)
>
> There is a choice between KDE4 and GNOME

i recognize it makes little difference to you that in fact there _is_
choice..

go back to that page and notice the choice available in step 2 between
1) DVD, 2) Live CD or 3) Network (experienced users only)

both choices 1 or 3 allow you to choose KDE4.1, KDE3.5, Gnome 2.24,
XFCE, minimal x window or text mode..

in Step 5 of the Step-by-step installation guide
http://en.opensuse.org/INSTALL_Local...ktop_selection

the _only_ path to either KDE4 or Gnome is if you select Live CD..

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platinum