Suggestions for openSUSE-11.1 Newbie Installation stickie?

oldcpu wrote:
> I'm heading off on vacation in a weeks time,

where did you got the idea that your vacation had been approved??

you wiel doo as we tell yew, or yew wiel be verrry sorey!

--
platinum
vacate safely, hurry home...you will be missed here!

[bananaoomarang]

Have it so it asks the user whether they want to configure a wireless or wired connection or both and whether you want to use proprietary or open source graphics drivers

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by bananaoomarang

Have it so it asks the user whether they want to configure a wireless or wired connection or both and whether you want to use proprietary or open source graphics drivers

Can you explain more? Why would the installation stickie ask that? And after asking that, what recommendation would it give? Note we need to give either a good link, or specific instructions that new users can hopefully understand. < says me, as the pot asking the kettle not to be black >

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by platinum

oldcpu wrote:
> I'm heading off on vacation in a weeks time,

where did you got the idea that your vacation had been approved??

lol

I'm back off vacation, and either this weekend or next, I'll start throwing together an update to the stickie.

At first I'll keep it on my hard drive, and once we are a few weeks away, I'll create the post and stick it, ... removing the older stickie when 11.2 GM is released.

The new stickie may be put in a different location ....

More specifically, we are are also looking at doing a very minor modification to our HOW-To (FAQ) Read-Only section with something like this:

Part-1. NEW USERS How To/FAQ (read only)

Change the topic:

How To/FAQ (read only)

to

NEW USERS How To/FAQ (read only)

and it will state as a description:
Tips and Tricks for openSUSE Linux, especially New Users, reviewed by staff members for accuracy
and it will also have the subforum areas:

• Sub-Forums: Unreviewed How To and FAQ
• Sub-Forums: Advanced How To and FAQ (read-only)

i.e. we move the entire content of the How-To/FAQ into a sub area called "Advanced How To and Faq (read-only), and have the main area a small number of How-To's for new users, and we call the entire Forum section "NEW USERS How To/FAQ (read only)".


Part-2. Registered User Group Announcement:

After the above (step-1) is in place, we implement an announcement for "registered user group" (which will not appear for "trusted users", where people are moved to trusted users after 10 posts) where the announcment is flaged as "Dismissable", and a new user will see a red X in the upper right corner of the notice...if they click that, they won't see it again.

The exact announcement words tbd but should say something like: " Downloads for openSUSE can be found here: Software.openSUSE.org Either while downloading, or before downloading, please go to this section (link to the NEW USERS How to/FAQ (readonly) section) and read the stickies. Please also browse our openSUSE Forums to see the wealth of information ... "

Part-3. Update wiki with forum reference

update section-5 from here:Software.openSUSE.org stating something like:

d. If you run into problems, your peers at http://forums.opensuse.org will be glad to help you.

... the exact implementation may vary slightly.

[traderbam]

For oldcpu,
Excellent initiative. As a newbie myself (and I quite like the term) of just 3 weeks, I'd better get my experiences down before I become too savvy to remember them! I come from Windows world with almost zero experience of Linux.

1) I had no idea that there was a help page in this forum for newbies at all. When I visted the openSUSE page it had a friendly lizard and a big green rectangle with "Get it" here, so I clicked and I followed the instructions and before I really had to think I had a live CD and was installing it.
=> There should be some BIG CLEAR MESSAGE to direct a newbie to the newbie help page/forum post BEFORE they start using it.

2) SUSE would not boot on the live CD when I first tried it. Something to do with my video cards (Nvidia SLI pair). The thing bombed to a blank screen each time. This sucks as a first impression. It took me at least 6 hours to find a solution: it was to create a network install CD and install over the net. BTW all sorts of foreboding warnings about installing this way but I found it very easy to do, albeit slow.
=> Tell newbie what to do if the live CD won't work

3) GRUB horrors. A newbie like me has no idea how the bios boots up an OS. I suspect the newbies you should concern yourself with are ones, like me, used to Windows and probably ones who are installing SUSE on a system that already has Windows.
The problem I had is that although I had the instinctive sense to install SUSE on its own dedicated HDD, the SUSE installer modified my Windows MBR and stuck GRUB there without me realising it or the implications of it. This is a disaster for a newbie because it installs a functionality time-bomb.
The newbie instructions must explain some basics:
a) Keep your Windows disk untouched, even physically disconnect it during the SUSE install.
b) Use the bios settings to select SUSE vs Windows in the first instance. Don't bother setting up a dual-boot GRUB menu until you know what you are doing (queue a HOW-TO).
c) Warn newbies that Windows does not recognize the SUSE grub and so any changes to Windows (reinstalls, upgrades) will either screw up Windows (Vista SP1 for example) or destroy GRUB and disable your SUSE OS from booting. THIS SHOULD BE IN HUGE RED BOLD LETTERS.
d) Preferably, all this would be explained in SUSE itself during the install process and SUSE would default to putting the GRUB on the SUSE HD rather than the Windows HD.

4) Configuration after install
a) I have installed off live CD but I don't have all the stuff I would have if I had installed off DVD (this should be made clear). Now, how do I get the rest of it? Would I have gotten all of it had I done a network install?
b) What are the most basic configurations needed and how do I do them? Software upgrades/downloads. Which of the many Yast apps should I mess with/activate? Do I need to set up Kerebos/NIS/Samba/Firewall, some or none of them?
c) How do I access my Windows filesystem?
d) Can I read and write NTFS files reliably so I can use my Windows data from SUSE? File interchange.
e) Do I have all the manual and help pages I may need? Do I need to download these and if so how?
f) What are the defects (bugs) I am most likely to encounter as a newbie and how do I work around them? For example, I have a TD Ameritrade online stock trading account and it displays price charts using Java applets. This was one of the first things I tried using Firefox. (actually, I first tried it with Konqueror but its graphics are pants - another thing to mention). Whenever I opened a price chart Firefox crashed. How off-putting is this?!! It took me ages and ages to resolve this and in the end it seems it is a defect in either openJRE and/or Iced Tea. How was I to know that these weren't bona fide Sun Java apps? I had no idea. Now I know never to use these and only to install sun Java RE and browser plugin. So some warnings about efficacy of software.


Your typical Windows user expects everything to pretty much work without loads of complicated configurations or a degree in UNIX. That's the big advantage of Windows over Linux. If you want to attract Windows people to Linux the expectations need to be made clear and some very basic guidelines waved in front of them.

Some details are not important to the first timer. Partitioning, for example, who cares? As long as my Windows installation is untouched by lizard feet I really don't care what the partitioning is or how big SUSE makes my swap space (whatever that is? :-). Partitioning is not a concern with Windows. But it is a big deal in the SUSE installation process.


These are my thoughts. I'd be happy to help out with the wordsmithing of any of it that you want to include. A lot of this is awareness that the newbie guide exists and also deciding what your target newbie knows and tailoring the guide accordingly.

I get the impression that linux regulars would like more Windows folks to try linux out and even migrate to it. First experiences matter a lot. I nearly gave up a couple of times and if I did not have so much free time I almost certainly would have done.

Hope this is helpful,
Brian

oldcpu wrote:

>
> platinum;2035034 Wrote:
>> oldcpu wrote:
>> > I'm heading off on vacation in a weeks time,
>>
>> where did you got the idea that your vacation had been approved??
> lol
>
> I'm back off vacation, and either this weekend or next, I'll start
> throwing together an update to the stickie.
>
> At first I'll keep it on my hard drive, and once we are a few weeks
> away, I'll create the post and stick it, ... removing the older stickie
> when 11.2 GM is released.
>
> The new stickie may be put in a different location ....
>
> More specifically, we are are also looking at doing a very minor
> modification to our HOW-To (FAQ) Read-Only section with something like
> this:
>
>> *Part-1. NEW USERS How To/FAQ (read only) *
>>
>> Change the topic:
>>
>> HOW TO/FAQ (READ ONLY)
>>
>> to
>>
>> NEW USERS HOW TO/FAQ (READ ONLY)
>>
>> and it will state as a description:
>> -Tips and Tricks for openSUSE Linux, especially New Users, reviewed by
>> staff members for accuracy -
>> and it will also have the subforum areas: > > >
> - Sub-Forums: Unreviewed How To and FAQ
> - Sub-Forums: Advanced How To and FAQ (read-only) > >
>>
>> i.e. we move the entire content of the How-To/FAQ into a sub area
>> called "Advanced How To and Faq (read-only), and have the main area a
>> small number of How-To's for new users, and we call the entire Forum
>> section "NEW USERS How To/FAQ (read only)".
>>
>>
>> *Part-2. Registered User Group Announcement: *
>>
>> After the above (step-1) is in place, we implement an announcement
>> for "registered user group" (which will not appear for "trusted
>> users", where people are moved to trusted users after 10 posts) where
>> the announcment is flaged as "Dismissable", and a new user will see a
>> red X in the upper right corner of the notice...if they click that,
>> they won't see it again.
>>
>> The exact announcement words tbd but should say something like: -"
>> Downloads for openSUSE can be found here: 'Software.openSUSE.org'
>> (http://software.opensuse.org/) Either while downloading, or before
>> downlaoding, please go to this section (link to the NEW USERS How
>> to/FAQ (readonly) section) and read the stickies. Please also browse
>> our openSUSE Forums to see the wealth of information ... "-
>>
>> *Part-3. Update wiki with forum reference *
>>
>> update section-5 from here:'Software.openSUSE.org'
>> (http://software.opensuse.org/) stating something like:
>>
>> -d. If you run into problems, your peers at
>> http://forums.opensuse.org will be glad to help you.- ... the exact
>> implementation may vary slightly.
>
>
Brians comments are good. I wish I had some of them when I started. My
answer to Grub issue was to move XP to Sun VirtualBox.

Also it would be nice to have a how to (or Link to one) on recreating the
various drivers when a new Kernel is installed. The main ones are Nvidia (if
it was manually installed the Hard Way and the VirtualBox driver.
--
Russ [openSUSE 11.1 (2.6.27.29-0.1-default [x86_64]) KDE 4.3.1 release 162,
Intel DX48BT2 Core 2 Dual E7200. 4 GB DDR III GeForce 8400 GS, 320GB Disc
(2)]

[traderbam]

I think Mozilla does a pretty good job of the organisation of getting started info.

Another issue I just came across is the Hal/Policy stuff. I wanted to mount my Windows HD and I wasn't allowed too. The impertinence!

An explicit step in the beginners config guide should be to enable mounting of all drives. One of the first things a Windows user is going to want to do is access a file from their Windows filesystem and try to open it with a linux app. Being confronted with some unintelligible refusal notice is very annoying.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by upscope

Also it would be nice to have a how to (or Link to one) on recreating the various drivers when a new Kernel is installed. The main ones are Nvidia (if it was manually installed the Hard Way and the VirtualBox driver.

Its already there: NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - openSUSE Forums - post#6 BUT the links are out of date ... I'll fix that now !! Thanks

ATI Graphics Driver Custom Install: [Note this link is NOT browsable with a browser as an http link, it needs to be added as a repository (or browsed as ftp). Its also possible the URL is not populated yet]
ATI - openSUSE [non browseable http link]
ftp://www2.ati.com/suse/11.1/ [ftp link]


Nvidia Graphics Driver Custom Install: [Note this link is NOT browsable with a browser as an http link, it needs to be added as a repository (or browsed as ftp).
NVIDIA - openSUSE [non browsable http link]
ftp://download.nvidia.com/opensuse/11.1/ [ftp link]


Intel Graphics Driver under Linux:
Welcome to the Linux Graphics Driver from Intel site | Graphics

Originally Posted by traderbam

An explicit step in the beginners config guide should be to enable mounting of all drives. One of the first things a Windows user is going to want to do is access a file from their Windows filesystem and try to open it with a linux app. Being confronted with some unintelligible refusal notice is very annoying.

Its already there , in the same post: NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - openSUSE Forums - post#6

NTFS under openSUSE:
NTFS - openSUSE

In both cases, these posts do not appear to be attracting "enough" attention. There are limits to how "gaudy" one can make the stickie, without making it too illegible. Already its pretty gaudy, and covers a LOT of material.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

Its already there: NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - openSUSE Forums - post#6 BUT the links are out of date ... I'll fix that now !! Thanks

Links are fixed ! Thanks.

[traderbam]

I am sure all the information exists in your Newbie Installation Sticki and is wonderful


That's not enough.


The location and importance has to be obvious. I can not see "Beginners Installation Guide" in big letters on the openSUSE.org home page. That's where it should be. I also don't see any reference to it during the live CD aquisition process nor during SUSE install.

I would not naturally think to go to a chat forum to find an installation guide. I would more naturally expect it in a formal documentation section.

Even if I did browse the forum, I don't see an explicit banner for installation and set-up in the forum home page.


Maybe it's just me.