Suggestions for openSUSE-11.1 Newbie Installation stickie?

[Darkelve78]

Not to nitpick, but isn't "newbie" kind of denigrating terminology?

> Not to nitpick, but isn't "newbie" kind of denigrating terminology?

Shouldn't be. Newbies are the most important folks _here_. I mean, if only
oldcpus were allowed here what would they do, fight about which whatzit is best?

Anyway, _everyone_ is new sometimes. And at ALL times everyone is new about
something. (Like, I've been using Linux a long time but consider myself a BIG
TIME newbie in some things I've never used, or tried to use.) Words are words, only.

On the other hand, though I don't believe the use of newbie is denigrating in
the name of this (or any other) thread, I DO believe the thread is misnamed
because it has GOOD info for even the *most* experienced Linux user! And,
therefore I suggest it NOT be used.

[colinpendred]

I think something I would find useful would be a description of the different approaches to upgrading, with their pros and cons. E.g.
1) Doing a fresh install, but maintaining the /home directory (nice clean install; but you loose many settings)
2) Doing an upgrade from the DVD (slightly cluttered - 11.0 to 11.1 RC1 had some issues that may have been cleared by now; but you get a proper 11.1 install, as it uses the images)
3) Running zypper dup (Not sure about this one. I guess you keep everything you had, including all software and settings, upgraded to 11.1 versions; but is it a true 11.1 install - e.g. do you get new software that was introduced in 11.1, like the new package front end, or just new versions of old software?)

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by Oh Mi

On the other hand, though I don't believe the use of newbie is denigrating in the name of this (or any other) thread, I DO believe the thread is misnamed because it has GOOD info for even the *most* experienced Linux user! And, therefore I suggest it NOT be used.

I confess the stickie was intended and specifically written for NEW USERS and not experienced users. The philosophy I had was NEW USERS must have a stickie like this. More experienced users could use such a stickie, but its not as essential for them.

If calling a "NEW USER" a newbie is offensive, then it can be changed. But having typed that willingness to change, I have to state I strongly disagree that a post with a title for "newbies" is insulting. I consider myself a newbie in many areas (just the other day someone one asked me about ram disks and tmpfs of which I know absolutely nothing - I'm a real newbie there and I do NOT find that insulting).

I do not want to expand the scope of this stickie to more than just NEW USERS, for if I do, there will be no end to suggested changes. I think if one wants a general installation guide for all classes of users, then a wiki along the lines of what Ubuntu has in place, or a Release Note along the lines of what Fedora has in place, is more reasonable. I deliberately avoided that approach. This stickie was written for newbies and it is intended for newbies. If others benefit, thats great, but that was not the purpose.

Originally Posted by colinpendred

I think something I would find useful would be a description of the different approaches to upgrading, with their pros and cons. E.g.
1) Doing a fresh install, but maintaining the /home directory (nice clean install; but you loose many settings)
2) Doing an upgrade from the DVD (slightly cluttered - 11.0 to 11.1 RC1 had some issues that may have been cleared by now; but you get a proper 11.1 install, as it uses the images)
3) Running zypper dup (Not sure about this one. I guess you keep everything you had, including all software and settings, upgraded to 11.1 versions; but is it a true 11.1 install - e.g. do you get new software that was introduced in 11.1, like the new package front end, or just new versions of old software?)

These are good points but I struggle a bit with them in terms of scope. Point #1 to me is the most useful for New Users, but it assumes one has already an openSUSE install in place. Hence one is not a complete newbie. Still this is a good point, and I need to ponder how to fit it in.

Point #2 and #3 go into the entire clean install, vs update install, vs zpper dup install, and I do not want to get into that debate in a stickie. Many of us have strong views on this, and to me the users who have the strongest views are also the ones who are by no means newbies. Its difficult for anyone to write a narrative on the pros and cons of either approach, with out showing their bias. Hence I see these are definite valid considerations, but to me they belong in a general installation wiki, or in a separate clearly laid out how-to/guide, but not in a newbie stickie. In particular, to the maximum extent practical, I prefer not to delve into areas where there is room for subjective debate.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by colinpendred

I think something I would find useful would be a description of the different approaches to upgrading, with their pros and cons. E.g.
1) Doing a fresh install, but maintaining the /home directory (nice clean install; but you loose many settings)

I've been pondering the best way to do this, and IMHO what would be best is if there was an openSUSE wiki, explaining this, and explaining partitioning for New Users. Then I could simply point to such a wiki, reminding new users to learn a bit about partitioning and /home partitioning IF they do not have a simple PC setup.

Unfortunately, the only URL I could find was this out of date SuSE-7.0 wiki:
SDB: Partitioning for SuSE Linux - openSUSE

It looks like this has not been updated by anyone in the openSUSE community for a very long time.

[mingus725]

Above I failed to adequately distinguish between the community documentation - the wiki - and the forum stickie, where you are focused. Sorry about that. What I had been initially looking for over there was the new user guide I remembered, a simple categorized list of the most common installation questions. That apparently no longer exists, but I think this is what replaced it, and would be their counterpart to what you are doing: New to Ubuntu? Start here... - Ubuntu Forums. It's the stickie atop their "Absolute Beginner Talk" subforum which is prominently displayed at the top of the Forum main page - giving greater prominence to this section is perhaps a useful thought in itself.

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by mingus725

... I think this is what replaced it, and would be their counterpart to what you are doing: New to Ubuntu? Start here... - Ubuntu Forums. It's the stickie atop their "Absolute Beginner Talk" subforum which is prominently displayed at the top of the Forum main page - giving greater prominence to this section is perhaps a useful thought in itself.

Thanks for that link. It definitely does have me thinking.

[conram]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

I confess the stickie was intended and specifically written for NEW USERS and not experienced users. The philosophy I had was NEW USERS must have a stickie like this. More experienced users could use such a stickie, but its not as essential for them.

If calling a "NEW USER" a newbie is offensive, then it can be changed. But having typed that willingness to change, I have to state I strongly disagree that a post with a title for "newbies" is insulting. I consider myself a newbie in many areas (just the other day someone one asked me about ram disks and tmpfs of which I know absolutely nothing - I'm a real newbie there and I do NOT find that insulting).

I do not want to expand the scope of this stickie to more than just NEW USERS, for if I do, there will be no end to suggested changes. I think if one wants a general installation guide for all classes of users, then a wiki along the lines of what Ubuntu has in place, or a Release Note along the lines of what Fedora has in place, is more reasonable. I deliberately avoided that approach. This stickie was written for newbies and it is intended for newbies. If others benefit, thats great, but that was not the purpose.

These are good points but I struggle a bit with them in terms of scope. Point #1 to me is the most useful for New Users, but it assumes one has already an openSUSE install in place. Hence one is not a complete newbie. Still this is a good point, and I need to ponder how to fit it in.

Point #2 and #3 go into the entire clean install, vs update install, vs zpper dup install, and I do not want to get into that debate in a stickie. Many of us have strong views on this, and to me the users who have the strongest views are also the ones who are by no means newbies. Its difficult for anyone to write a narrative on the pros and cons of either approach, with out showing their bias. Hence I see these are definite valid considerations, but to me they belong in a general installation wiki, or in a separate clearly laid out how-to/guide, but not in a newbie stickie. In particular, to the maximum extent practical, I prefer not to delve into areas where there is room for subjective debate.

Can the newbie term on the title be replaced with something like newOpenSuSers
In green representing the suse color.

Just my not important 2-cents

On Mon December 15 2008 10:06 am, conram wrote:

>
> oldcpu;1908270 Wrote:
>> I confess the stickie was intended and specifically written for NEW
>> USERS and not experienced users. The philosophy I had was NEW USERS
>> must have a stickie like this. More experienced users could use such a
>> stickie, but its not as essential for them.
>>
>> If calling a "NEW USER" a newbie is offensive, then it can be changed.
>> But having typed that willingness to change, I have to state I strongly
>> disagree that a post with a title for "newbies" is insulting. I
>> consider myself a newbie in many areas (just the other day someone one
>> asked me about ram disks and tmpfs of which I know absolutely nothing -
>> I'm a real newbie there and I do NOT find that insulting).
>>
>> I do not want to expand the scope of this stickie to more than just NEW
>> USERS, for if I do, there will be no end to suggested changes. I think
>> if one wants a general installation guide for all classes of users, then
>> a wiki along the lines of what Ubuntu has in place, or a Release Note
>> along the lines of what Fedora has in place, is more reasonable. I
>> deliberately avoided that approach. This stickie was written for
>> newbies and it is intended for newbies. If others benefit, thats great,
>> but that was not the purpose.
>>
>> These are good points but I struggle a bit with them in terms of scope.
>> Point #1 to me is the most useful for New Users, but it assumes one has
>> already an openSUSE install in place. Hence one is not a complete
>> newbie. Still this is a good point, and I need to ponder how to fit it
>> in.
>>
>> Point #2 and #3 go into the entire clean install, vs update install, vs
>> zpper dup install, and I do not want to get into that debate in a
>> stickie. Many of us have strong views on this, and to me the users who
>> have the strongest views are also the ones who are by no means newbies.
>> Its difficult for anyone to write a narrative on the pros and cons of
>> either approach, with out showing their bias. Hence I see these are
>> definite valid considerations, but to me they belong in a general
>> installation wiki, or in a separate clearly laid out how-to/guide, but
>> not in a newbie stickie. In particular, to the maximum extent
>> practical, I prefer not to delve into areas where there is room for
>> subjective debate.
>
> Can the newbie term on the title be replaced with something like
> *NEWOPENSUSERS*
> In green representing the suse color.
>
> Just my not important 2-cents
>
>
oldcpu;
Perhaps a title that describes the contents of the stickie would be
appropriate. Your exact choice of title will be determined by the contents
but I'm thinking of something like "General Information and Resources" or
even "General Information for the new user". Another two cents worth.
--
P. V.
"We're all in this together, I'm pulling for you." Red Green

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by PV

Perhaps a title that describes the contents of the stickie would be appropriate. Your exact choice of title will be determined by the contents but I'm thinking of something like "General Information and Resources" or even "General Information for the new user". Another two cents worth.

Thanks! I'm not sure changing the title is an easy option now, because of the follow on posts and the possibility of NNTP propagation (with the risk of isolated child reply posts).

After reading your comment, I did write a short one sentence line scoping the stickie (in the 2nd post).