Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot

[mmarif4u]

Maybe the subject is not that Linux friendly, but the facts are somehow right.

Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot - Computerworld Blogs

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by mmarif4u

Maybe the subject is not that Linux friendly, but the facts are somehow right.

Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot - Computerworld Blogs

Its a good read IMHO.

When I look at the stated 5 reasons:

• 1) Lack of Linux vendor support
• 2) Lack of Linux advertising and marketing
• 3) Too much bad techie attitude
• 4) Too much infighting
• 5) Not enough developer co-operation

I do not agree with #3. I've read that (bad techie attitude) stated as a reason many other times, but every time I have, its been posted by someone who either

• themselves have a bad attitude or an inflated sense of their own superior knowlege based on Windows experience (or a couple decades of not applicable Unix or VMS experience) and they post how they have been using Unix since before it was created in Bell Labs, or note they have been using Windows since Bill Gates was in diapers, and ergo based on their inflated time scale of experience they are self appointed experts, and they are frustrated Linux does not do things the way THEY know is correct based on their inflated experience (and any one who disagrees is simply in ill informed techie with a bad attitude), or
• themselves criticisize every OS they visit, and Linux distribution-x is just another in a litany of discarded distributions and OS the self proclaimed critic have decided to take a swipe at to bolster their own self esteem, so they put the distro forum down as having "too techie" an attitude to help feed their self worth

The VAST majority of times I've seen new users "flamed" is when they launch off their first post in a rant. By far the VAST majority of responses to polite new users have been many "welcome" posts, and many Links pointing the new user to where they can find more information.

I've seen far worse of a "bad techie" attitude in MS-Windows forums, and MS-Windows applications forums, than I've ever seen in Linux.

However I believe the other 4 points in the article have definite merit.

... all IMHO of course.

[Knurpht]

Lack of vendor support? Don't make me laugh. On commercial distro's the support is fantastic. People need to understand they can find support in the community, not in the company, since there often is none.
Lack of Linux advertising and marketing: true. But who's gonna pay for it. And a change is coming: compared to five years ago (hardly anybody) most people know linux exists.
Techie attitude: yes, some found. But you cannot wipe out the patience showed to help out, to explain what's going on. The 'RTFM' remarks are not unique to the linux world, in fact I find more disapprovement here, than in 'other OS's fora'.
Too much infighting: IMHO any is too much.
Not enough developper co-operation: covered by only one example. You cannot get something like KDE3, KDE4, Gnome without it. Plus, mentioning Adobe as a linux friendly company; ask any 64bit linux user.

Conclusion: IMHO the artilce it looks well based, thought over, but I don't think much of it. There's bits of truth in everything said, but bits of truth don't make the whole truth. The whole truth is that linux has been improving with the ticking of the clock, that it's share is growing by the day, that it can be compared to any OS and come out OK.

[mmarif4u]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

The VAST majority of times I've seen new users "flamed" is when they launch off their first post in a rant. By far the VAST majority of responses to polite new users have been many "welcome" posts, and many Links pointing the new user to where they can find more information.

Agree 100% here.

[consused]

Shortcomings truthfully reported by a friend to linux is always worth reading and taking on board, I believe.

[techwiz03]

Originally Posted by mmarif4u

Maybe the subject is not that Linux friendly, but the facts are somehow right.

Five ways the Linux desktop shoots itself in the foot - Computerworld Blogs

Hey that blog shud b incorporated into the foundations of all linux forums. Especially points 3 and 4.

For me, I find far too many supposedly technical swavy x-sperts
who would rather turn off new comers than to help.

Any Battlestar Galactica fans out there? If so you will probably remember a episode when a Galactica fighter pilot comes across a downed Cilon Ship (robot race that is exterminating humans) he interrogates the only surviving robot warrior and asks
"don't you machines know how to work together or realize you were crashing?"
the Cilon robot replies ... "Yes we consult each other, we decided to consult the manual when the ground came up and hit us"

cheers

[techwiz03]

Originally Posted by oldcpu

Its a good read IMHO.

When I look at the stated 5 reasons:

• 1) Lack of Linux vendor support
• 2) Lack of Linux advertising and marketing
• 3) Too much bad techie attitude
• 4) Too much infighting
• 5) Not enough developer co-operation

I do not agree with #3. I've read that (bad techie attitude) stated as a reason many other times, but every time I have, its been posted by someone who either

• themselves have a bad attitude or an inflated sense of their own superior knowlege based on Windows experience (or a couple decades of not applicable Unix or VMS experience) and they post how they have been using Unix since before it was created in Bell Labs, or note they have been using Windows since Bill Gates was in diapers, and ergo based on their inflated time scale of experience they are self appointed experts, and they are frustrated Linux does not do things the way THEY know is correct based on their inflated experience (and any one who disagrees is simply in ill informed techie with a bad attitude), or
• themselves criticisize every OS they visit, and Linux distribution-x is just another in a litany of discarded distributions and OS the self proclaimed critic have decided to take a swipe at to bolster their own self esteem, so they put the distro forum down as having "too techie" an attitude to help feed their self worth

The VAST majority of times I've seen new users "flamed" is when they launch off their first post in a rant. By far the VAST majority of responses to polite new users have been many "welcome" posts, and many Links pointing the new user to where they can find more information.

I've seen far worse of a "bad techie" attitude in MS-Windows forums, and MS-Windows applications forums, than I've ever seen in Linux.

However I believe the other 4 points in the article have definite merit.

... all IMHO of course.

As a moderator you can actually say this feel good? I came on board with this forum in June or July this year mainly to see what help was available on a few nagging issues and size up the forum for it's ability to be helpful.

Reading posts and requests for support/help, and the responses give me a sour pit in my stomach when I see how people are being treated by some. Let me say this when I see certain responders always respond negatively as the first message, recognize the attitude was similar if not same as previous member under another name, and the characteristic "Post n/a", it really makes me wonder if this forum is one to recommend.

There have been so many times that I would have just loved to call down a particular so called expert and hit them with a few volumes of facts but had to hold my tongue simply because they are people too! They have a right to an opinion, they have a right to dignity even when they are obviously not extending the same respect to those they are answering.

And there's my IMHO

[oldcpu]

Originally Posted by techwiz03

As a moderator you can actually say this feel good?

Say what?

Am I to tell the truth as I see it ? Or lie from my own perspective to fit a mold you have of moderators?

Users who come to rant on their very first post in a forum could be compared to people on a cliff about to jump, but of course on a much smaller scale. They want help, and yet they don't want help. The cliff is their rant and they are on the edge of leaving the Linux distro (in our case their cliff is them about to leave openSUSE).

Should I deny they exist? Should I not think about their attitudes that drove them to post in such a manner?

Users who are frustrated with difficulty, but post politely, are almost always dealt in turn with politeness and kindness. Users who rant (in most case with inadequate reason to justify the eloquence of their rant) stir up annoyance in those who like openSUSE and who spend a lot of time and effort to help openSUSE move forward.

In life one gets back what one puts in. And if one puts in a rant, unfortunately that is what they get back. I have tried, and continue to try, to moderate rants when they happen, but to deny rants happen would be a lie. To deny some users will not make one, no not one, help request, but instead will immediately rant, would be a lie. What sort of person does not ask for help, but instead puts others down immediately? Would you want someone like that as your friend? Would you want as a friend someone who as soon as you contribute, picks away at you? Puts you down? and jumps into others who do things and puts them down, without once asking for help? Is that the sort of person YOU want as a friend. And if you are reluctant to have them as a friend, why is that? Is it because there is something about their personality that gives you pause?

Originally Posted by techwiz03

Reading posts and requests for support/help, and the responses give me a sour pit in my stomach when I see how people are being treated by some.

Then IMHO you are focusing on a small % of the posts.

Why not take the time to add up ALL the help posts, and note what % give you this sour pit in your stomach.

There comes a time when even moderators get fed up with the exaggeration of those who criticize.

Originally Posted by techwiz03

There have been so many times that I would have just loved to call down a particular so called expert and hit them with a few volumes of facts but had to hold my tongue simply because they are people too! They have a right to an opinion, they have a right to dignity even when they are obviously not extending the same respect to those they are answering.

Well, so called experts by whom ? They may be knowledgeable in one area, but if they take a piece out of a new user who is polite, then IMHO they are no expert. My experience on this forum is all new users who post politely are dealt with politely. They get a LOT of volunteer effort and help.

But when it comes to dealing with a new user who does nothing but rant in their first few posts, or alternatively who offers minimal support to a forum, but rather enjoys picking apart the way it is run, then I have to ask myself, what drives their attitude?

Yes, forums need help. But negative criticism is FAR too prevalent by those who enjoy kibitzing, and far far more can be gained by positive support than by sneering at the efforts of those who are trying to help and trying to run things.

No, I stand by my observations. They are IMHO, and note the "H" in that IMHO. IMHO it is a sad reflection on those who enjoy ranting on their first post, and IMHO its a sad reflection on those members who enjoy picking apart everything where volunteer effort and time has gone in to set it up, but thats life and thats a reflection of their self inflated esteem. THEY have major problems in life that is being pushed back on the forum in how they post.

And thats still my unchanged IMHO.

[hendersj]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:46:02 +0000, techwiz03 wrote:

> As a moderator you can actually say this feel good? I came on board with
> this forum in June or July this year mainly to see what help was
> available on a few nagging issues and size up the forum for it's ability
> to be helpful.
>
> Reading posts and requests for support/help, and the responses give me a
> sour pit in my stomach when I see how people are being treated by some.
> Let me say this when I see certain responders always respond negatively
> as the first message, recognize the attitude was similar if not same as
> previous member under another name, and the characteristic "Post n/a",
> it really makes me wonder if this forum is one to recommend.
>
> There have been so many times that I would have just loved to call down
> a particular so called expert and hit them with a few volumes of facts
> but had to hold my tongue simply because they are people too! They have
> a right to an opinion, they have a right to dignity even when they are
> obviously not extending the same respect to those they are answering.

Like oldcpu, I'd have to call it as I see it; as a moderator as well,
it's hard to see everything. That's why the web interface has a "report"
button. We can't always get people to behave the way we'd like, but
there are certainly things we can do to encourage appropriate behaviour.

When you see someone behaving badly, feel free to call our attention to
the post by hitting the "report" button. As a moderator I'd much rather
those who want to see the attitudes become helpful instead of rude report
those posts to us so we can deal with them; we have tools that let us do
that, whereas a reply "in kind" does little to change the rude person's
behaviour, but instead only inflames the situation. That doesn't help us
bring the community to a place where the casual browser will say "this
looks like a good and friendly place to get help".

The reason I accepted the request to join the mod team was to help move
the community in that direction. But in order to do that, I need the
help of the community in making sure that I know when someone's really
out of line.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

[markcynt]

I've seen plenty of rude forum posts over the years. Every forum has them.

OpenSUSE forums IMHO has very few.

Overall I find the members here to be very polite and cordial.

I can't say the same for some other forums that I won't name or flame.

The other four points I don't know enough to comment on.