What do you NOT like about openSUSE?

[RedDwarf]

The golden cage and too many dependencies, take compiz try running compiz as your wm.

- Run

zypper --disable-system-resolvables in -r oss --no-recommends compiz

The output is the the list of *all* (direct and indirect) the dependencies of compiz.

- If you thing any package from the list should not be there do as explained at stick's corner � zypper – dependency graph. But instead of

zypper install --debug-solver pkg

do

zypper --disable-system-resolvables install --debug-solver -r oss --no-recommends pkg

- Look at the graph and identify which dependency you think should not be there.

- Open a bug report.

[FeatherMonkey]

Thx for that RedDwarf didn't know about those few bits. Gives a nice visual representation to. I have to admit mine was an example not a true complaint I found myself leaving the golden cage a long time ago. I have to admit I just find other distros are better for my own day to day usage.

I have a good idea what I need to do but for me it is just not worth the hassle i.e In this example the spec

configure \
        --disable-static \
        --with-pic \
        --sysconfdir=%gnome_etc \
        --disable-schemas-install \
%if 0%{suse_version} < 01120
        QTLIB=%{_prefix}/lib/qt3/%{_lib} \
%else
	--disable-kde \
%endif

To something like

./configure   --prefix=/usr \
	    --disable-gnome \
	    --disable-gtk \
	    --disable-metacity \
	    --disable-gconf \
            --with-gconf-schema-file-dir=/etc/gconf/schemas \
	    --enable-dbus \
	    --enable-librsvg \
	    --disable-kde \
	    --disable-kde4

Then continuing this example why is there not a compiz-kde4 in the normal repos, again a rhetorical question I'm just trying to highlight that once you get out of the golden cage Suse becomes quite tricky to manage.

OK here I highlighted compiz yet someone the other day wanted gdm without gnome again it ended up with gnome deps How to use GDM instead of KDM? - openSUSE Forums

For sure it could be done curious how it was being done on the distro I use. It would seem there is additional packages one for gnome and kde a brief look it seems to enable the specific bits and remove dups from the package. TBH why is there a compiz-gnome, compiz with the above config may as well be gnome or perhaps gnome/kde.

Then lets take LXDE as at the moment it seems gnome this, gnome that. Without looking I bet it depends on openbox but it just isn't a true dep. Though at the moment you could say it is as using another wm standalone would be difficult and would involve compiling a fair few packages. Again with out looking I also suspect trying to install a kde app in a non kde env would probably not result in i.e kwrite ...

strigi-0.7.2-2  qca-2.0.2-2  polkit-qt-0.95.1-1  phonon-gstreamer-4.4.0-1  phonon-4.4.0-1  
shared-desktop-ontologies-0.3-1  attica-0.1.3-1  kdelibs-4.4.2-1  oxygen-icons-4.4.2-1  
libssh-0.4.1-3  kdebase-runtime-4.4.2-1  kdebase-kwrite-4.4.2-1

I only had a brief look but why do I need libcdparanoia for kwrite if I'm understanding the output correctly or gstreamer bits.

Any way a lot rhetorical and I long time ago excepted Suse for what it is. To be honest IMO many of the above complaints are actually related to what I'm talking about. They talk about repo proliferation a fair few including myself will rarely recommend people use outside the usual suspects. IMO It isn't repo proliferation it is if you wish to do something outside of the golden cage then things will become tricky as highlighted, repo proliferation is the symptom not the cause.

[FeatherMonkey]

Edit to be fair my KDE example is not really fair either way as neither really come in clean and partially the reason why I now use WM over a DE.

[RedDwarf]

I have a good idea what I need to do but for me it is just not worth the hassle i.e In this example the spec

configure \
        --disable-static \
        --with-pic \
        --sysconfdir=%gnome_etc \
        --disable-schemas-install \
%if 0%{suse_version} < 01120
        QTLIB=%{_prefix}/lib/qt3/%{_lib} \
%else
	--disable-kde \
%endif

To something like

./configure   --prefix=/usr \
	    --disable-gnome \
	    --disable-gtk \
	    --disable-metacity \
	    --disable-gconf \
            --with-gconf-schema-file-dir=/etc/gconf/schemas \
	    --enable-dbus \
	    --enable-librsvg \
	    --disable-kde \
	    --disable-kde4

Then continuing this example why is there not a compiz-kde4 in the normal repos, again a rhetorical question I'm just trying to highlight that once you get out of the golden cage Suse becomes quite tricky to manage.

In fact the package seems well splitted. compiz-gnome is installed because compiz requires "compiz-decorator". And from compiz-gnome the rest of Gnome deps appear. But compiz doesn't require of compiz-gnome, any package that provides compiz-decorator will be enough. To install compiz without Gnome what you need is a desktop independent compiz decorator... Emerald? I don't really know compiz and all its forks, I started to use composition with kwin4.
The current spec file is just fine. Gnome support is there in case someone wants it but not needed. Now, sure... there is no other Compiz decorator available in the main repo, you need the X11:XGL repo to get compiz-emerald.
If you want to use LXDE with Compiz you should contact Andrea Florio (anubis). He is doing most of the packaging for LXDE, and it will be in the main repo for 11.3... but right now Factory doesn't has Emerald (it has compiz-gnome *and* compiz-kde4, I suppose compiz-kde4 isn't in 11.2 just because they forgot with the KDE3->KDE4 change).

Though at the moment you could say it is as using another wm standalone would be difficult and would involve compiling a fair few packages.

It is true that anything different of KDE and Gnome is a second citizen in 11.2. Again, contact Andrea since he is doing a lot of work to have LXDE in 11.3.

Again with out looking I also suspect trying to install a kde app in a non kde env would probably not result in i.e kwrite ...

strigi-0.7.2-2  qca-2.0.2-2  polkit-qt-0.95.1-1  phonon-gstreamer-4.4.0-1  phonon-4.4.0-1  
shared-desktop-ontologies-0.3-1  attica-0.1.3-1  kdelibs-4.4.2-1  oxygen-icons-4.4.2-1  
libssh-0.4.1-3  kdebase-runtime-4.4.2-1  kdebase-kwrite-4.4.2-1

I only had a brief look but why do I need libcdparanoia for kwrite if I'm understanding the output correctly or gstreamer bits.

Kwrite requires KDE, KDE requires Phonon, Phonon requires a backend... by default the gstreamer backend is selected, the gstreamer backend ends requiring libcdparanoia. Install phonon-backend-xine instead and the gstreamer/cdparanoia deps will dissapear.
Probably kwrite is making some sounds when there is an error or somthing like that? If so, the dependencies are justified. Perhaps gstreamer-0_10-plugins-base could be splitted so cdparanoia isn't there by default, but the current splitting comes from upstream and the extra work doesn't seems justified.
If it's a real problem for you you can open a bug report (or do a submit request in the Build Service if you can package) so phonon just recommends "phonon-backend" instead of requiring it. But first you will need to be sure that things don't badly break if Phonon hasn't a backend available.

[FeatherMonkey]

Many thanks for your time I realise you do understand this stuff far better than I.

As mentioned much of it was rhetorical, to me Suse is best when you work with the golden cage and that I accept, if I put Suse on its KDE4, I use the main repos and deviate very slightly, I use yast to config etc...

Like I said much was rhetorical but I highlight one point. Really your solution to leaving the cage involved ...

X11GL repo for Emerald.

We also didn't even touch GDM as a standalone log in manager.

This is creating the repo proliferation, that is causing so many problems on the forums. A simple google with the phrase zypper lr will show it or the recommendations not to use one clicks(Which seems silly IMO, it is a selling point, "if" it is broke fix it don't recommend against it).

Like I said if you really read between the lines I agree it does work, in the aspect of using official repos and work well, but many do want things, bits or ways that are not in the official way of doing things. At that moment they have to resort to repo proliferation. Is there a solution personally I don't think so, you just have to except that is what Suse is.

[rajko_m]

FeatherMonkey wrote:

....
> A simple google with the phrase zypper lr will
> show it or the recommendations not to use one clicks(Which seems silly
> IMO, it is a selling point, "if" it is broke fix it don't recommend
> against it).

I agree on that one. Blanket recommendation to remove something that is
excellent feature, if implemented correctly, is not better then bad 1-click.

The fix requires to create service team that will be able to troubleshoot
problems in that area and create support infrastructure for those that want
to use 1-click (ymp); there are creators of ymp and users, and both need
help when something goes wrong.

What would be under the support infrastructure?
Explanation how it works.
Written procedure how to troubleshoot the most common 1-click problems.
Public list of 1-click items that users found as bad.
Team that can look into and fix or remove offenders.
Place where to look for help.

> Like I said if you really read between the lines I agree it does work,
> in the aspect of using official repos and work well, but many do want
> things, bits or ways that are not in the official way of doing things.

Those bits need attention as they create bad image for openSUSE.
When you have problem because of one bad item out of few thousands, you will
not be happy and explanation that it is not official will not cut. Not to
mention that it creates additional load on people that support users.

> At that moment they have to resort to repo proliferation. Is there a
> solution personally I don't think so, you just have to except that is
> what Suse is.

Solution requires more people to take care of the problem, and without many
more openSUSE users there will be no more those willing to work on that.

--
Regards Rajko,

[FeatherMonkey]

@rajko_m

Firstly thank you for you contribution even if I may not directly receive it, and at the other devs/contributors.

Solution requires more people to take care of the problem, and without many
more openSUSE users there will be no more those willing to work on that.

To be fair I think you touched on something else and maybe something else I don't like and is possibly addressed else where by others. The disjointed community of the devs vs the users.(I always felt you should be given custom titles on the forum)

TBH I know this is the case, and unless I'm mistaken has been for a while. But why do I know well it has nothing to do with the forum and plenty to do with reading the mailing list archives and some irc logs from the last Suse week. I have to be honest and say I also think this is partially related to the golden cage.

Bad source I know but still I can't actually think of any. So what Suse spin offs are there List of Linux distributions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it can't be rpm that's the problem as Fed seem to be doing fine.

IMO this goes back to golden cage you're after Suse developers not spin off/OSS developers lets take a simple one I immediately thought of grub.

Patch0:         %{name}-%{version}-path-patch
Patch1:         use_ferror.diff
Patch2:         grub-R
Patch3:         bad-assert-sideeffect
Patch4:         %{name}-gfxmenu-v8.diff
Patch5:         reiser-unpack
Patch6:         chainloader-devicefix
Patch7:         %{name}-%{version}-devicemap.diff
Patch8:         grub-linux-setup-fix
Patch9:         fix-uninitialized
Patch10:        force-LBA-off.diff
Patch11:        gcc4-diff
Patch12:        %{name}-%{version}-initrdaddr.diff
Patch13:        grub-a20.patch
Patch14:        disk-by-ID
Patch15:        e100-newIDs
Patch16:        recognise-zen
Patch17:        grub-install-fix-UUID_LABEL
Patch18:        ext2-support-256byte-inodes
Patch19:        grub-read-gpt
Patch20:        stage2-dir-callback.diff
Patch21:        stage2-wildcard.diff
Patch22:        stage2-wildcard-zerowidth.diff
Patch23:        stage2-wildcard-doc.diff
Patch24:        grub-%{version}-protexec.patch
Patch25:        pacify-autoconf
Patch26:        grub-grubonce-no-wait
Patch27:        grub-long-commandline
Patch28:        ext4-support
Patch29:        grub-acinclude-buildid-fix.diff
Patch30:        remove-buildid.diff
Patch31:        string-ops-fix
Patch39:        document-grub-install.unsupported
Patch40:        grub-iso-fixes

Say someone did have a problem with grub that can't be solved upstream. Comparison...

patch -Np1 -i ../special-devices.patch || return 1
  patch -Np1 -i ../i2o.patch || return 1
  patch -Np1 -i ../more-raid.patch || return 1
  patch -Np1 -i ../intelmac.patch || return 1
  patch -Np1 -i ../grub-inode-size.patch || return 1
  patch -Np1 -i ../ext4.patch || return 1

To me what you addressed is actually also related to the golden cage though there is a large user community that I'm sure has the resources to help regardless of the golden cage. But with the disjointed communities the user community isn't aware that the contributing community needs assistance, that is a communication/mingling problem. To me the Suse community is like the xmas parties where each department stays in there little groups and everyone just wants to get it finished and go home(Fun for no one).

[gropiuskalle]

What do you NOT like about openSUSE?

� During the initial install, the root password by default is set as to be the same as the users password. That is bad style.

� Too much thoughts spend on how to make things easier for beginners. SuSE should try to aim towards the more experienced and / or interested user. The idea of being a system for both n00bs and experts doesn't really work.

[ken_yap]

Too much thoughts spend on how to make things easier for beginners. SuSE should try to aim towards the more experienced and / or interested user. The idea of being a system for both n00bs and experts doesn't really work.

Mmm, I haven't found that openSUSE has been dumbed down that I cannot do advanced things in it. Everything I need to tweak is under the bonnet and has not been covered in a plastic shield labelled "sorry you are not meant to touch this". And it has always been so.

[gropiuskalle]

Mmm, I haven't found that openSUSE has been dumbed down that I cannot do advanced things in it.

I didn't say so.